It's obviously going to remain a "myth" to you until the time when Christ will finally reveal it to all nations. Like Paul said, God has not cast away His people which He foreknew (Rom.11). The idea that all Israel rejected Christ is the real 'myth'.
Are We All One In Christ?
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It's obviously going to remain a "myth" to you until the time when Christ will finally reveal it to all nations. Like Paul said, God has not cast away His people which He foreknew (Rom.11). The idea that all Israel rejected Christ is the real 'myth'.
When Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11:1-5 that God had reserved a remnant to Himself in Elijah's day, and that it still existed in Paul's days, that is Biblical declaration of an elect remnant of the seed of Israel that God has preserved, as He promised. That's not about any idea of some receiving something better than others. It's simply a promise God made to Israel and kept. It's about the idea of election and His Grace.
Jer 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)
God has promised the seed of Israel shall never cease from being a nation before Him, for ever.
This is correct and to be supported. But the "separated tribes" do not exist, as per my previous post. This is the "myth" I speak of, veteran. In the plan of God, Israel will most assuredly rule on earth over the nations as promised, but not without Him.
Heb 1:1-3
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(KJV)
Heb 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?
(KJV)
Heb 2:9-15
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare Thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto Thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in Him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(KJV)
I fail to see how any true believer on Christ could fail to see how the Book of Hebrews weaves right in among Paul's Epistles concerning The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul is considered to be the author of the Book of Hebrews, but possibly through Luke's pen.
The truths in the letter to the Hebrews is beyond dispute. None but the carnally-minded and the infidel would seek to dismiss it's Divine inspiration. That is not at issue. It is the address on the envelope, and to whom it was written. There is a difference between "for" and "to".
The first two verses you quote should provide sufficient evidence to the discerning student.
As to its relationship to the Body of Christ, and the teachings weaving right in with Pauls evangel? That will take considerable effort and honesty on your part to obtain a proper conclusion. Being unable to see is a handicap, not an excuse.
The "considered" authorship of Hebrews is not something to testify to. It is not the desire of God that His sons apply iffy and vague considerations to His declarations. If He has not said it, we are mistaken to presume or infer that He has. He has not given us the name of the author, and supplying it for God discredits His testimony to us. It is error.
fivesense
If what you say on that were true, then the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37 would have to be fulfilled already. It is not fulfilled yet.
Ezek 37:19-28
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
That Scripture above is already enough to define that God split the 12 tribes into two separate nations and kingdoms. The detail of it is in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17. But when is this gathering to happen?
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Those next verses define the WHEN of that prophecy. The great gathering of both houses is not until Christ's coming. That's what the great gathering to Christ is about, and it will include believing Gentiles with them. That has not happenned yet.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)
Further in Ezekiel, there is mention of a temple, God's River of the waters of life, and Christ's priests reiging with Him, which is Milennium timing, which is future still. The location of that is given on earth in the holy land, even with the inheritances of the twelve tribes back to the original lands of promise God gave to their fathers. That's what this Ezekiel 37 two sticks prophecy is about. It is yet to occur. The house of Judah and the house of Israel are still apart today. Even Jewish rabbi well know per history that the ten tribes were separated from them long ago, and have become lost, but are prophesied to return under Messiah.
Everything you've just said is nothing more than an attempt to skirt around the actual content of those Hebrew verses I posted. You've offered your opinion, which is one that simply doesn't hold water. The Book of Hebrews is full of the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ, which those verses I quoted are about. And preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ is evangelism. I only had to scan the first two Hebrew chapters to show that too.
And you have no proof (except man's words and your own opinion) to show that Apostle Paul didn't have a hand in writing Hebrews. Albeit, the original author is not really the issue, it's the content of the Book of Hebrews that makes it align with New Testament teaching, which is right in line with Paul's Epistles, for Paul was called to preach The Gospel not just to Gentiles only...
Our Lord Jesus said about Apostle Paul...
Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
(KJV)
The Book of Hebrews is written for ALL Christians who have believed The Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it declares The Gospel of Jesus Christ, just as all the New Testament Books do, along with many of the Old Testament Books too. Or don't you agree with that?
Gosh V, I can't even get past the first two verses with you in order to arrive at truth, much less the rest of the verses. If the first two verses are not intelligible to the reader, clearly saying who it is addressed to, then sense will hardly be made of the rest of the letter, and no point in going further.
Hb 1:1-2 . God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Are you going to honestly say to me that your understanding of those first two verses tells you that this letter is addressed to all Christians everywhere and all the time, and that is truly what those verses are saying to us?
Much hinges upon your response, veteran.
fivesense
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Choir Loft
Most likely it was only an error in your proof reading or editing.
One of the benefits of round table discussion on sites like this is to allow us to enjoy external review.
I often have problems with spelling, punctuation and things of that natur.
fs, you still do not realize that the majority of the Christian nations are Israel, they are not Gentiles.
You are correct, Paul. I cannot apprehend that. This is probably due to a lack of something on my part.
Are you trying to say those verses before I posted, and these, don't apply to you as a believer on Christ?
Heb 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?
(KJV)
Tell me how these verses DON"T apply to believing Gentiles on Christ. Show me that and I'll show you a non-believer on Christ Jesus as The Saviour.
Heb 5:9
9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;
(KJV)
What, just because some think the Book of Hebrews was written only to Hebrews, that its Message has no weight for Gentiles? It's the same Gospel that Paul preached.
Heb 9:15
15 And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(KJV)
That's the very same Message Apostle Paul gave in 1 Timonthy 2, and in Galatians and Romans.
Heb 9:24
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
(KJV)
Is that "us" above meant only about Hebrews? Obviously not, and to treat it so is to infer that Salvation is only for Hebrews and not Gentiles too. Nowhere does the Book of Hebrews disagree with what Apostle Paul taught. It instead aligns with The Gospel Paul preached. Paul did not just preach The Gospel to Gentiles only.
I'm well aware of the platform where you're coming from, like those who listen to people like C.R. Stam who tries to teach that only Paul's Epistles are written for Gentiles, while the rest of the Books of The Bible are written only for Israel. That is really a joke doctrine as soon as sincere believer on Christ Jesus takes time to read the four Gospel Books and Hebrews, and the OT prophets, and realize how much Apostle Paul directly quoted from the prophets in preaching the one Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles.
Veteran, I am content to allow you to abide in your certainty, as you show a great deal of confidence and fortitude in your opinion. I do not have any desire to affect your liberty in Christ, and I am only desirous of proclaiming truth, not opinions. Do not suppose that I will come against you in any way. There is no point and the time is short for us. Advancement into the deep things of God requires a dedicated and humble spirit, and I am apt to become vaunted in my flesh, and cause stumbling for others in contesting for the faith.
The correct partitioning of the word of God is a tool in the hands of the sons of God. It is not a weapon for division, and I will not allow it to become so. The Word of Life, and all His revelations to us, including the Jewish epistles, are for us. All scripture is God-breathed and delivered through God's messengers for us to know and apprehend, in order to come into proper relationship with our Father before His Son returns. All we do that prohibits that attainment will be cast off and discarded along with the flesh that provoked it.
fivesense
I can't buy into your brand of sincereity, nor of what you assign as "opinion" vs. God's Holy Writ.
Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about the 'leaven' doctrines of men, and to not be decieved by it. Whether a believer or a non-believer on Christ pushes the leaven doctrines of men contrary to God's Holy Writ, both are still at fault. If I didn't care about you as a brother in Christ, I would have said nothing.
You've been 'caught' preaching other things than what's written in God's Word, even a separation-division in Christ's Body by the false dual gospel ideas of C.R. Stam and others. So, your very words that you don't intend to allow God's Word to become a weapon for division shows me I can't trust your appeal to sincereness.
I welcome your thoughts concerning me, and the public announcement of my being a deceiver. It is an honor to be reproached for the truth of God. I think that being "caught" proclaiming truth, and directing people to look to the word of God for truth is also an honor, and I thank you for affirming that.
I have no idea who Mr. Stam is, you have referred to him several times. It is an attempt to malign me by associating me with someone you disapprove of, whom I have never heard of. Accusations without evidence amount to slander. I do not need to remind you of the titles of the enemy of God, but you may have forgotten one of his appelations. At the dais of Christ, when we all stand before Him to receive wages for what we have done in our bodies, the injuries we inflicted on each other will be redressed and made right. It is good to keep this in mind when labeling and libeling others of the faith.
I look forward to more of your posts.
fivesense
Hello there,
Are we all one in Christ? In my opinion not yet but we're on the process. We belong to different bodies (Christian sects and other religions) at the moment. We have one God so we should have one body. We all differ in our view of the gospel principles with different interpretation of the scriptures. With this, I don't think we are one in Christ although all of us believe in Him. Thanks for this very interesting topic.
regards,
jickis31
Are we all one in Christ? In my opinion not yet but we're on the process. We belong to different bodies (Christian sects and other religions) at the moment. We have one God so we should have one body. We all differ in our view of the gospel principles with different interpretation of the scriptures. With this, I don't think we are one in Christ although all of us believe in Him. Thanks for this very interesting topic.
regards,
jickis31
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