Are WE as Christians a new creation or is it Christianity?

[StanJ]

I must be missing something but it seems to me that only one of the 4 interpretations is blurry.

ISV Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation.
CEB So then, if anyone is in Christ, that person is part of the new creation.
NASB Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature.
NIV Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come.


How do you get Christianity as an option from any of the translations? They all say ''If anyone is in Christ''.

Seems you missed Mounce's translation, and as such 3 of the five convey us as being part of A CREATION (new covenant), not a new person/creature.
What exactly did Jesus usher in?

Is anybody a Christian if they are NOT in Christ? IMO, Christianity IS the NEW creation/covenant.

Perhaps it has to do with BA Christians as a whole??A generalization, if you will? I don't really know. I'm an NIV reader, myself.

You are getting close to one of the issues in how this verse along with others are viewed, and it does indeed have to do with who are and are no born again, AND who considers who to be born again. However I am more concerned with the narrow issue of the OP than the wider issue of who believes what doctrine.

I'm not a Greek expert, but since the original words translate to "...if anyone in Christ new creation...", could it be understood as meaning "...if anyone is a new creation in Christ, old things are passed away..."?

I don't believe any of us are here, but that is the issue, what does the Greek actually convey based on the 5 translations in the OP? You quoted one rendering, but 3 of the 5 convey a different rendering. If Jesus brought the NEW covenant and being born again means God writing His laws on our hearts, are we part of that new covenant when we are born again, or are we a NEW creation that didn't exist before? I don't know about you, but I was pretty much the same person I was the moment after salvation, and have grown over the years. Compared to 40+ years ago, I am night and day in spirit, but the same person.

I think if we look at the overall context, it is difficult to see this as anything other than the new life which occurs due to faith in Christ.


This entire context refers to the "ministry of reconciliation." Paul is talking about how he seeks to "persuade" people to be reconciled to God. Those who come to this realization of what God has done in Christ will no longer "live for themselves" because those for who Christ has died, have also died to themselves. Those, with this transformed perspective of life and the cross, no longer live for themselves because they no longer look at Christ and the cross in a natural way. Rather they see Christ as the one God used to reconcile the world to himself and the cross the means of removing trespasses.

So, in this context there is really no mention of the consummation of all things. Rather, this context seems to be specifically focused on the newness which takes place due to faith in the message Paul is preaching. This newness includes:
1. Focus on the heart and not outward appearance
2. Not living for self, but for Christ
3. Regarding people according to faith, not flesh
4. Seeing Christ as a means of God's reconciliation, not simply a man
5. Reconciliation with God and removal of trespasses

Thus, all these points seem to be pointing to the "newness" to which Paul is referring in this context. While certainly all things are made new at the consummation of this age, I don't see this to be the focus of this passage. Paul seems to explicitly be focusing on a change of perspective among those that accept his message with regards to how they view one another, how they view Christ, and how they relate to God.

I note that you used the ESV above, but by the same token if you refer to the NIV it conveys the same difference in POV. Basically reconciliation was God providing a way that we could meet the righteous requirements of the law under the OC/OT, thus the NEW Covenant/creation. Reconciliation does not convey newness, but a regenerative process to make us lawfully able to stand in front of God face to face. We are still we, I am still I, otherwise how could I possible reap what I have sown in my old life? Our sins may be forgiven when we are saved, but their repercussions can always be felt and seen throughout or lives. Only through God's mercy are they sometimes minimized.

 

[KingJ]

Seems you missed Mounce's translation, and as such 3 of the five convey us as being part of A CREATION (new covenant), not a new person/creature.
What exactly did Jesus usher in?

Is anybody a Christian if they are NOT in Christ? IMO, Christianity IS the NEW creation/covenant.

The Mounce says ''Behold what is new has come''. That would make 3 different translations. 1. He is a new creation (ISV & NASB), 2. Part of a new creation (CEB) and 3. The new creation has come (Mounce & NIV).

So...you are proposing that Christianity is a boat we must jump on / as opposed to us being changed into a new creation. Touching on Arminian vs OSAS. I can agree with that. But IMO scripture is saying both. When we fall in love with Jesus how are we not a new creation? We have gone from someone who didn't care / hated Him to someone who does care / loves Him. There is plenty scripture to back up both views. We need to combine them. We don't need to believe one over the other.

 

[Wormwood]

NIV84　|　2 Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
ESV　|　2 Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
NA27　|　2 Co 5:17 ὥστε εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ, καινὴ κτίσις· τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν, ἰδοὺ γέγονεν καινά.
NASB95　|　2 Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
NRSV　|　2 Co 5:17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!

Stan, I think we have to allow the context to qualify what specifically the new creation is since the Greek is obscure. Yet the τις means anyone/someone so this also seems to be emphasizing the individual. As I pointed out, the context has everything to do with a change in how people perceive the Apostles, Christ and their relationship with God. It is not uncommon for Paul to speak about an immediate renewal or change in an individual when they become a Christian. This renewal has to do with a renewed perception on reality, the life of the Spirit within, and a transformed relationship with God:

“For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3:3–7, ESV)

“But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:10–11, ESV)

I think Paul had no problem reconciling the immediate change we receive when we become Christians with the importance of ongoing faith and sanctification.

“And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.” (Colossians 1:21–23, ESV)

Here we see both concepts of immediate reconciliation (which is one of the primary points in 2 Cor. 5) AND the importance of ongoing faith that is necessary to stand blameless before the Lord.

 

[StanJ]

The Mounce says ''Behold what is new has come''. That would make 3 different translations. 1. He is a new creation (ISV & NASB), 2. Part of a new creation (CEB) and 3. The new creation has come (Mounce & NIV).

So...you are proposing that Christianity is a boat we must jump on / as opposed to us being changed into a new creation. Touching on Arminian vs OSAS. I can agree with that. But IMO scripture is saying both. When we fall in love with Jesus how are we not a new creation? We have gone from someone who didn't care / hated Him to someone who does care / loves Him. There is plenty scripture to back up both views. We need to combine them. We don't need to believe one over the other.

Just two, as 2 and 3 are in essence the same thing.

If that's the way you understand it then I guess it works.
Many claim that unbelievers don't care, and that would be wrong. God could not draw those that didn't care or respond positively could He?
Jesus would not instruct sinners to ask, seek, knock if they couldn't. I didn't much care about my wife before I started dating her, but cam to love her. That is why we are instructed to "put on" love. We change, but we are still the same person. Why would we be encouraged to "endure" if we were really changed? Why would changed or NEW creations fall away into apostasy?
We need to see what the overall message in the scriptures tell us, and one main feature is repenting and moving on. Same person, different attitude.

Stan, I think we have to allow the context to qualify what specifically the new creation is since the Greek is obscure. Yet the τις means anyone/someone so this also seems to be emphasizing the individual. As I pointed out, the context has everything to do with a change in how people perceive the Apostles, Christ and their relationship with God. It is not uncommon for Paul to speak about an immediate renewal or change in an individual when they become a Christian. This renewal has to do with a renewed perception on reality, the life of the Spirit within, and a transformed relationship with God:

I agree, and we need to stick to the versions in the OP. It's complicated enough without moving the goal posts.
The NIV changed their rendering from the one you've shown above. I'd have to say they looked at it much closer the second time around, and as Mo0unce also worked on the NIV I see a consistency in the translations.

NIV 2011: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

So what is the new creation? Is it not the new covenant? Does the new covenant exist in all men or only in believers? How does God write His laws on ours hearts? Instantaneously or as we walk in faith?
I agree, that our mind is renewed, but more accurately as Paul said, we are being renewed. Rom 12:2. Again this is NOT instantaneous.

I think Paul had no problem reconciling the immediate change we receive when we become Christians with the importance of ongoing faith and sanctification.

Here we see both concepts of immediate reconciliation (which is one of the primary points in 2 Cor. 5) AND the importance of ongoing faith that is necessary to stand blameless before the Lord.

Change is not being a NEW creature is it?

Yes, but the issue is, are we NEW or are we being reNEWed?

 

[KingJ]

Just two, as 2 and 3 are in essence the same thing.

If that's the way you understand it then I guess it works.
Many claim that unbelievers don't care, and that would be wrong. God could not draw those that didn't care or respond positively could He?
Jesus would not instruct sinners to ask, seek, knock if they couldn't. I didn't much care about my wife before I started dating her, but cam to love her. That is why we are instructed to "put on" love. We change, but we are still the same person. Why would we be encouraged to "endure" if we were really changed? Why would changed or NEW creations fall away into apostasy?
We need to see what the overall message in the scriptures tell us, and one main feature is repenting and moving on. Same person, different attitude.

Agreed. Scripture points toward free will for all and ability to shipwreck salvation. That is the message God wants us to receive. Paul confirmed this with Phil 2:12 and 1 Cor 11:31.

Though we musn't be too harsh on OSAS as God does not make mistakes. God only reveals Jesus as Lord to us 1 Cor 12:3 after we pass a session of harsh judgment from Him Jer 17:10.

So the ultimate conclusion is that we are not God / cannot fully grasp God Job 9:3 and only a fool would say they have made it when they havn't 1 Cor 10:12.

We just need to grasp that shipwreck is ''ship wreck''. Ie we are not a speedboat ^_^.

 

[Wormwood]

Stan,

I don't know that I am following your discrepancies here. I, personally, think it is talking about the individual. Even though the NIV2011 makes it sound more like the coming of the new creation in general, this still is referring to the individual. Again, the "anyone" is the focus of the "new creation." If the new creation has come, it has come to the individual who is "in Christ." The question, however, is whether or not this "new creation" Paul is referencing implies that it is a once for all renewal that needs no further work. As the verses I mentioned above show, I think Paul's theology held both in very nice balance. Certainly there is a new creation that takes place in the moment of a person's coming to be "in Christ." I think this is specifically what Paul is talking about in 2 Cor. 5 since the context is referring to individual's change of perception and status when they embrace the message of reconciliation. However, I agree that Paul would certainly not say that this "new creation" that takes place when one accepts the Gospel is a once for all event that requires no further action. We must continue to walk in faith. I simply think that our continued walk in faith causes us to remain in Christ and become more strongly rooted in him. However, I don't think we change positionally once we are in Christ. You are either a forgiven child of God or you are not. Our maturing in our walk in this world only marks our rootedness in the truth and not our purity or "newness" before the eyes of God. If we are in Christ, God sees Christ in us. You cant get any newer than that!

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

I don't know that I am following your discrepancies here. I, personally, think it is talking about the individual. Even though the NIV2011 makes it sound more like the coming of the new creation in general, this still is referring to the individual. Again, the "anyone" is the focus of the "new creation." If the new creation has come, it has come to the individual who is "in Christ." The question, however, is whether or not this "new creation" Paul is referencing implies that it is a once for all renewal that needs no further work. As the verses I mentioned above show, I think Paul's theology held both in very nice balance. Certainly there is a new creation that takes place in the moment of a person's coming to be "in Christ." I think this is specifically what Paul is talking about in 2 Cor. 5 since the context is referring to individual's change of perception and status when they embrace the message of reconciliation. However, I agree that Paul would certainly not say that this "new creation" that takes place when one accepts the Gospel is a once for all event that requires no further action. We must continue to walk in faith. I simply think that our continued walk in faith causes us to remain in Christ and become more strongly rooted in him. However, I don't think we change positionally once we are in Christ. You are either a forgiven child of God or you are not. Our maturing in our walk in this world only marks our rootedness in the truth and not our purity or "newness" before the eyes of God. If we are in Christ, God sees Christ in us. You cant get any newer than that!

Sorry, I try my best. Paul is addressing individuals just as he is addressing the church in Corinth. The point of my OP is that the verse doesn't say we are A NEW creature as far as I can tell, it says we are part of THE NEW Creation, or new covenant. I can't explain why the latter word wasn't used here.
Positionally, we are reconciled by accepting the redemption Christ brought with Him. We are the SAME person spiritually but reborn/renewed positionally.
We are NOT a NEW creature as some would misconstrue this verse to say.

 

[Wormwood]

Stan,

I see what you are saying. I must say I don't think I agree. The Greek literally says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, new creation!" Paul's whole point is that we do not regard anyone according to the flesh. The newness is a spiritual renewal that comes with the Holy Spirit and reconciliation with God. Yes, our bodies are not recreated yet, but that is Paul's entire point. We don't see things according to the flesh anymore. Those who are in Christ are new spiritually even though they look the same outwardly (just as Christ was once viewed according to the flesh, but now we see him differently with new, spiritual eyes).

Certainly, there will be a resurrection and recreation of our bodies, but the new creation Paul is speaking of in this verse is a spiritual renewal. I think this is consistent with Paul's theology in other verses where he speaks of baptism as pointing to the death of the old man and being raised spiritually to live a new life in Christ. In fact, I think this is also pointed to in Revelation 20 that speak of those who experienced the first resurrection have no fear of the second death. The first resurrection is about new birth in Christ in my opinion. So yes, there is a new creation that takes place when a person embraces the Gospel, but it is simply a deposit of what is to come.
JMHO

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

I see what you are saying. I must say I don't think I agree. The Greek literally says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, new creation!" Paul's whole point is that we do not regard anyone according to the flesh. The newness is a spiritual renewal that comes with the Holy Spirit and reconciliation with God. Yes, our bodies are not recreated yet, but that is Paul's entire point. We don't see things according to the flesh anymore. Those who are in Christ are new spiritually even though they look the same outwardly (just as Christ was once viewed according to the flesh, but now we see him differently with new, spiritual eyes).

Certainly, there will be a resurrection and recreation of our bodies, but the new creation Paul is speaking of in this verse is a spiritual renewal. I think this is consistent with Paul's theology in other verses where he speaks of baptism as pointing to the death of the old man and being raised spiritually to live a new life in Christ. In fact, I think this is also pointed to in Revelation 20 that speak of those who experienced the first resurrection have no fear of the second death. The first resurrection is about new birth in Christ in my opinion. So yes, there is a new creation that takes place when a person embraces the Gospel, but it is simply a deposit of what is to come.
JMHO

I think you do agree but have a problem with the concept. Notice how you use RENEW all the time to describe what transpires in the verse.
Renewal and regenerate has to do our spirit for sure, but it does not connote NEWNESS as the Greek word for new means something that never existed before, as Jesus indicated in Mark 16:17. It applies to speaking in tongues and it applies to the NEW creation. Just as we speak can speak in NEW tongues, we can participate and be part of the NEW creation, which is the new covenant.

I have pointed out other scripture from Paul that is consistent with my POV, and Rev 20 does not relate as it is in a different context, which IS a physical and eternal one.