Are You Following the Real Jesus—or a Counterfeit?

[Scott Downey]

Christ is the Creator

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [a]comprehend it.

Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Hebrews 1
God, who [a]at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [b]worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had [c]by Himself [d]purged [e]our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

 

[Runningman]

Your view may sound respectful of Jesus, but it directly contradicts the full counsel of Scripture. The Bible makes it absolutely clear that Jesus is not merely a man with a God, He is God in the flesh, fully divine and eternally existing with the Father. To deny His divinity is to reject the very identity of the One who saves.

You cited John 17:2, where Jesus says the Father gave Him authority to give eternal life. Yes, that verse is true. But you're using it to falsely imply that Jesus lacked divine authority in Himself. That interpretation ignores what Scripture teaches as a whole. In John 1:1, it says plainly, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in John 1:14, it says, “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” Jesus didn’t become divine, He was already God before He came in the flesh.

You also referenced John 3:16–17. That’s the gospel, no question. But verse 18 goes on to say, “He that believeth on him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already.” Believing in Jesus isn’t just about acknowledging that He is the Messiah, it includes believing in who He truly is. Jesus said in John 8:24, “If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” The phrase “I am” in Greek (ἐγώ εἰμι) is the same phrase used in the Greek Old Testament for God’s name in Exodus 3:14. Jesus was claiming divine identity.

In John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.” The Jews understood exactly what He meant, they picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, “because thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33). Jesus didn’t correct them because they were right about what He was claiming. He accepted worship (Matthew 14:33, John 9:38), something no created being should ever do (Revelation 22:8–9).

Your rejection of Jesus’ divinity is not supported by Scripture, it’s a distortion of it. Jesus is not just a sinless man who sits beside God. He is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the one in whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9). That is not a metaphor. That is truth.

You said we need to look at the whole of Scripture. I agree. And the whole of Scripture declares that Jesus is both the Son of God and God Himself. Denying that is not a minor misunderstanding, it is rejecting the very nature of the Savior. Turn back to the Word, and believe in the real Jesus, not a lesser version made to fit human reasoning. Only the true Jesus can save.

Absolutely, but like I said in my previous posts, the Bible says a lot more things about the same subject, but it's all scattered around the Bible. While those verses seem to suggest a particular theology when they stand alone, there are additional verses that expand on them.

I also believe we should not approach who Jesus is with assumptions if we are to understand him correctly. I am not saying that is what you are doing, I am just saying that it's a sound approach to understanding Jesus. For example, the Bible does not say "Jesus is God in the flesh." Nor are there prophecies about God becoming a human, nor is Jesus called eternal in the Bible, nor said to have eternally existed with the Father. It's absolutely true that Jesus is divine which means from God or like God. Being from God and like God is actually what the Bible teaches that we as Christians should be too.

As far as Jesus having divine authority within himself, that actually is where some of my previous comments come into play again. Like John 17:2, there are more examples of this. Matthew 28:18 says Jesus was given all authority. John 5:22,27 says Jesus was given authority to judge. John 5:26 says Jesus was given his life. Matthew 9:6-8 says Jesus was given power to forgive sins. John 10:18 says that Jesus' power over death was received from his Father. Acts 2:36 says God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. John 8:28 says Jesus was taught by his Father. And Jesus is described as one who inherited all things in Hebrews 1:2. So, yes absolutely, Jesus indeed did not inherently have divine authority within himself. Jesus was given everything he had.

The Bible is an interesting book because just when it starts to sound like Jesus might be God in the flesh after all, most of the things he did or has are said to be things others can do/have too. For example, Jesus walked on the water but so did Peter in Matthew 14:29. Jesus calmed the sea in Matthew 8:23-27, but Elijah also controlled the weather in 1 Kings 17:1. Jesus was given power to forgive sins, but Matthew 9:6-8 says this power was given to men, that's plural. John 5:26 says Jesus was given power to judge in John 5:27, but in 1 Corinthians 6:2 Paul said the saints will also judge the world. Hebrews 1:2 says Jesus inherited all things, but in Romans 8:17 Paul taught the church they will also be heirs of God and co-heirs of Christ. Even the oneness that Jesus has with God is the very same oneness he said his disciples could not only have with each other but also with him and his God in John 17:21-23. The list goes on and on.

So, the way I see Jesus is not as God, but a man with a God who is our example of what we can become. The Bible does indeed say we are to conform to the image of God's Son, walk in his footsteps, live like him, and obey his teachings. He said his Father is the only true God John 17:3 and taught his disciples that their God is the Father, too, in John 20:17.

So that's where I am coming from. Excellent thread by the way. It's really good we can find all of the things about the real Jesus to make sure we are following the real one or not.

 

[bdavidc]

Absolutely, but like I said in my previous posts, the Bible says a lot more things about the same subject, but it's all scattered around the Bible. While those verses seem to suggest a particular theology when they stand alone, there are additional verses that expand on them.

I also believe we should not approach who Jesus is with assumptions if we are to understand him correctly. I am not saying that is what you are doing, I am just saying that it's a sound approach to understanding Jesus. For example, the Bible does not say "Jesus is God in the flesh." Nor are there prophecies about God becoming a human, nor is Jesus called eternal in the Bible, nor said to have eternally existed with the Father. It's absolutely true that Jesus is divine which means from God or like God. Being from God and like God is actually what the Bible teaches that we as Christians should be too.

As far as Jesus having divine authority within himself, that actually is where some of my previous comments come into play again. Like John 17:2, there are more examples of this. Matthew 28:18 says Jesus was given all authority. John 5:22,27 says Jesus was given authority to judge. John 5:26 says Jesus was given his life. Matthew 9:6-8 says Jesus was given power to forgive sins. John 10:18 says that Jesus' power over death was received from his Father. Acts 2:36 says God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. John 8:28 says Jesus was taught by his Father. And Jesus is described as one who inherited all things in Hebrews 1:2. So, yes absolutely, Jesus indeed did not inherently have divine authority within himself. Jesus was given everything he had.

The Bible is an interesting book because just when it starts to sound like Jesus might be God in the flesh after all, most of the things he did or has are said to be things others can do/have too. For example, Jesus walked on the water but so did Peter in Matthew 14:29. Jesus calmed the sea in Matthew 8:23-27, but Elijah also controlled the weather in 1 Kings 17:1. Jesus was given power to forgive sins, but Matthew 9:6-8 says this power was given to men, that's plural. John 5:26 says Jesus was given power to judge in John 5:27, but in 1 Corinthians 6:2 Paul said the saints will also judge the world. Hebrews 1:2 says Jesus inherited all things, but in Romans 8:17 Paul taught the church they will also be heirs of God and co-heirs of Christ. Even the oneness that Jesus has with God is the very same oneness he said his disciples could not only have with each other but also with him and his God in John 17:21-23. The list goes on and on.

So, the way I see Jesus is not as God, but a man with a God who is our example of what we can become. The Bible does indeed say we are to conform to the image of God's Son, walk in his footsteps, live like him, and obey his teachings. He said his Father is the only true God John 17:3 and taught his disciples that their God is the Father, too, in John 20:17.

So that's where I am coming from. Excellent thread by the way. It's really good we can find all of the things about the real Jesus to make sure we are following the real one or not.

I appreciate your effort to go deeper, but your approach still misunderstands how the Bible reveals who Jesus truly is. When you say Jesus is not God but just a man with a God, you’re ignoring key verses that draw a clear line between Christ and every created being. For example, Hebrews 1:3 says Jesus is “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,” and upholds all things by the word of his power. That is not language used for a mere man. The Greek word translated “express image” is charaktēr, meaning the exact imprint, not a copy, not a reflection, but the very substance.

You also mentioned Jesus being "given" things like authority, judgment, and life. But in John 5:21, Jesus says, “For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.” That’s not borrowed power, that’s sovereign authority. No man has that ability by nature. You can’t separate His submission in the flesh from His eternal identity as the Son who always existed with the Father (John 1:1–2).

You said Jesus is our example of what we can become. That’s true in terms of character and obedience (1 John 2:6), but not in nature. No believer will ever be worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6), or have the name that is above every name (Philippians 2:9). Jesus is not “one of many,” He is unique, “the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18), and “God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16).

When you blend the nature of Christ with created beings and call it unity or symbolism, you blur the lines God made clear. Following the real Jesus means believing in Him as He truly is, not a glorified man, but God the Son. Anything less is not the Gospel.

 

[jeffweeder]

I believe Jesus is a man with a God just like you and I. Not to marginalize him because he is God's begotten Son and unique, sinless, and sitting at the right hand of God.

Only God is sinless.
The Lord of salvation is God himself becoming a man, born from above to bear the sins of the whole world.
Only God is without blemish, which is why it had to be him.


Is 59
16
He saw that there was no man,
And was amazed that there was no one to intercede [on behalf of truth and right];
Therefore His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His own righteousness sustained Him.


Isaiah 63:5
“I looked, but there was no one to help, And I was amazed and appalled that there was no one to uphold [truth and right]. So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath sustained Me.

 

[One 2 question]

Absolutely, but like I said in my previous posts, the Bible says a lot more things about the same subject, but it's all scattered around the Bible. While those verses seem to suggest a particular theology when they stand alone, there are additional verses that expand on them.

I also believe we should not approach who Jesus is with assumptions if we are to understand him correctly. I am not saying that is what you are doing, I am just saying that it's a sound approach to understanding Jesus. For example, the Bible does not say "Jesus is God in the flesh." Nor are there prophecies about God becoming a human, nor is Jesus called eternal in the Bible, nor said to have eternally existed with the Father. It's absolutely true that Jesus is divine which means from God or like God. Being from God and like God is actually what the Bible teaches that we as Christians should be too.

As far as Jesus having divine authority within himself, that actually is where some of my previous comments come into play again. Like John 17:2, there are more examples of this. Matthew 28:18 says Jesus was given all authority. John 5:22,27 says Jesus was given authority to judge. John 5:26 says Jesus was given his life. Matthew 9:6-8 says Jesus was given power to forgive sins. John 10:18 says that Jesus' power over death was received from his Father. Acts 2:36 says God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. John 8:28 says Jesus was taught by his Father. And Jesus is described as one who inherited all things in Hebrews 1:2. So, yes absolutely, Jesus indeed did not inherently have divine authority within himself. Jesus was given everything he had.

The Bible is an interesting book because just when it starts to sound like Jesus might be God in the flesh after all, most of the things he did or has are said to be things others can do/have too. For example, Jesus walked on the water but so did Peter in Matthew 14:29. Jesus calmed the sea in Matthew 8:23-27, but Elijah also controlled the weather in 1 Kings 17:1. Jesus was given power to forgive sins, but Matthew 9:6-8 says this power was given to men, that's plural. John 5:26 says Jesus was given power to judge in John 5:27, but in 1 Corinthians 6:2 Paul said the saints will also judge the world. Hebrews 1:2 says Jesus inherited all things, but in Romans 8:17 Paul taught the church they will also be heirs of God and co-heirs of Christ. Even the oneness that Jesus has with God is the very same oneness he said his disciples could not only have with each other but also with him and his God in John 17:21-23. The list goes on and on.

So, the way I see Jesus is not as God, but a man with a God who is our example of what we can become. The Bible does indeed say we are to conform to the image of God's Son, walk in his footsteps, live like him, and obey his teachings. He said his Father is the only true God John 17:3 and taught his disciples that their God is the Father, too, in John 20:17.

So that's where I am coming from. Excellent thread by the way. It's really good we can find all of the things about the real Jesus to make sure we are following the real one or not.

Jesus will submit His kingdom to His Father.

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Runningman]

I appreciate your effort to go deeper, but your approach still misunderstands how the Bible reveals who Jesus truly is. When you say Jesus is not God but just a man with a God, you’re ignoring key verses that draw a clear line between Christ and every created being. For example, Hebrews 1:3 says Jesus is “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,” and upholds all things by the word of his power. That is not language used for a mere man. The Greek word translated “express image” is charaktēr, meaning the exact imprint, not a copy, not a reflection, but the very substance.

You also mentioned Jesus being "given" things like authority, judgment, and life. But in John 5:21, Jesus says, “For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.” That’s not borrowed power, that’s sovereign authority. No man has that ability by nature. You can’t separate His submission in the flesh from His eternal identity as the Son who always existed with the Father (John 1:1–2).

You said Jesus is our example of what we can become. That’s true in terms of character and obedience (1 John 2:6), but not in nature. No believer will ever be worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6), or have the name that is above every name (Philippians 2:9). Jesus is not “one of many,” He is unique, “the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18), and “God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16).

When you blend the nature of Christ with created beings and call it unity or symbolism, you blur the lines God made clear. Following the real Jesus means believing in Him as He truly is, not a glorified man, but God the Son. Anything less is not the Gospel.

Well, the fascinating thing about the Bible is that the authors were highly skilled at putting a lot of highly nuanced information into small areas. It's so nuanced that it requires a careful eye to really pick up on the context. So, while it's true that Hebrews 1:3 says what it says, it is also true that in the KJV that God is described as a person, not a substance or nature like other Bibles say so that would mean Jesus is not the same person as God. It also seems like the "upholding all things by his powerful word" bit would suggest something grand, but the context is clear that it applies to the context of before his crucifixion, which means that Jesus did that before he was taken to heaven.

Yes John 5:21 does say Jesus will quickeneth who he will, but once again, the Bible is clear in John 10:18 and John 17:2 say that Jesus got that power from his Father.

Yes it's true there are many unique things about Jesus, but not to marginalize him, there are unique things about everyone. We are all unique in our own way, not exactly the same. However, the Bible also teaches that most of the things about Jesus are things we can also have. So example, we too can partake of the divine nature of God (2 Peter 1:4) and be filled with all of the fullness of the deity (Ephesians 3:19) rule with Jesus (2 Timothy 2:12) and sit on the throne with Jesus (Revelation 3:21.) Of course there is more, but if Jesus is God do you think we can sit on the throne of God? Jesus said we could. Something to consider.

Do you believe the real Jesus is created? There are some things that suggest he is. John 1:14, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14 explicitly refers to Jesus as a "beginning of the creation of God."

 

[Runningman]

Only God is sinless.
The Lord of salvation is God himself becoming a man, born from above to bear the sins of the whole world.
Only God is without blemish, which is why it had to be him.


Is 59
16
He saw that there was no man,
And was amazed that there was no one to intercede [on behalf of truth and right];
Therefore His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His own righteousness sustained Him.


Isaiah 63:5
“I looked, but there was no one to help, And I was amazed and appalled that there was no one to uphold [truth and right]. So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath sustained Me.

And only God cannot be tempted with sin (James 1:13) yet the Bible says Jesus can be tempted in every way as we are. (Hebrews 4:15)

 

[Runningman]

Jesus will submit His kingdom to His Father.

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

That's true. Paul did teach that the Lordship of Jesus is temporary 1 Corinthians 15. I hope we all discover who the real Jesus is in this thread.

 

[PS95]

And only God cannot be tempted with sin (James 1:13) yet the Bible says Jesus can be tempted in every way as we are. (Hebrews 4:15)

The Word became flesh so that He could be tempted and without sin.
That's where Uni's get all mixed up unable to distinguish between the two natures in Jesus.
He tired and thirsted- does God? No.
He said I came down from heaven - Does a human say that? No.
His father was not a man like yours. Does a human have an earthly father? Yes. Did Jesus? No.
I could go on all day.. You get the picture yet?

 

[bdavidc]

Well, the fascinating thing about the Bible is that the authors were highly skilled at putting a lot of highly nuanced information into small areas. It's so nuanced that it requires a careful eye to really pick up on the context. So, while it's true that Hebrews 1:3 says what it says, it is also true that in the KJV that God is described as a person, not a substance or nature like other Bibles say so that would mean Jesus is not the same person as God. It also seems like the "upholding all things by his powerful word" bit would suggest something grand, but the context is clear that it applies to the context of before his crucifixion, which means that Jesus did that before he was taken to heaven.

Yes John 5:21 does say Jesus will quickeneth who he will, but once again, the Bible is clear in John 10:18 and John 17:2 say that Jesus got that power from his Father.

Yes it's true there are many unique things about Jesus, but not to marginalize him, there are unique things about everyone. We are all unique in our own way, not exactly the same. However, the Bible also teaches that most of the things about Jesus are things we can also have. So example, we too can partake of the divine nature of God (2 Peter 1:4) and be filled with all of the fullness of the deity (Ephesians 3:19) rule with Jesus (2 Timothy 2:12) and sit on the throne with Jesus (Revelation 3:21.) Of course there is more, but if Jesus is God do you think we can sit on the throne of God? Jesus said we could. Something to consider.

Do you believe the real Jesus is created? There are some things that suggest he is. John 1:14, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14 explicitly refers to Jesus as a "beginning of the creation of God."

No, the real Jesus is not a created being. Any claim that He is denies the clear teaching of Scripture and presents a false Christ. John 1:1–3 makes it plain that Jesus, the Word, was with God in the beginning and was God, and that all things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. That means Jesus cannot be part of creation if He is the One through whom all creation came into existence. John 1:14 says the Word was made flesh, not created, He took on human nature, but He already existed eternally. Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus the “firstborn of every creature,” but the Greek word prototokos means preeminent or first in rank, not first created. If Paul meant Jesus was created, he would have used protoktistos, but he didn’t. In fact, the very next verse confirms this, “For by him were all things created.” Jesus is the Creator, not part of the creation. Revelation 3:14 refers to Jesus as “the beginning of the creation of God,” but the Greek word archē means source or origin, not the first thing created. Jesus is the origin of creation, not a product of it. The Bible repeatedly affirms that Jesus is eternal (Micah 5:2, John 8:58), the Creator (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:16), and God Himself (John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8). To believe that Jesus is a created being is to believe in a false gospel and a false Christ. That is idolatry. The true Jesus is the eternal, uncreated Son of God who has always existed and who alone can save.

 

[One 2 question]

Well, the fascinating thing about the Bible is that the authors were highly skilled at putting a lot of highly nuanced information into small areas.

I think Luke would disagree with you here. He recorded that Peter and John and Matthew were uneducated, untrained, unschooled, unskilled and ordinary.

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

 

[One 2 question]

That's true. Paul did teach that the Lordship of Jesus is temporary 1 Corinthians 15. I hope we all discover who the real Jesus is in this thread.

Yes, and the great truth is, the same Spirit Who was in Jesus 2000 years ago is in the individual members of His church and His body part on this earth. He reveals the true Jesus to us in real time. I'm not saying that the historical Jesus in human form isn't the true Jesus, He was. But this Jesus has been revealed to us ever since.

The historical records of the true Jesus, the Word become flesh, are so limited. But the Person of God's in flesh has been unveiling and revealing the true glorified living Jesus the Christ to this day.

 

[Runningman]

I think Luke would disagree with you here. He recorded that Peter and John and Matthew were uneducated, untrained, unschooled, unskilled and ordinary.

Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

Probably explains why the consensus is that Luke wrote Acts and the gospel of Luke. Luke is not an original apostle, but Luke wrote Acts not John and Peter.

Acts 1
1In my first book, O Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach,

 

[Runningman]

Yes, and the great truth is, the same Spirit Who was in Jesus 2000 years ago is in the individual members of His church and His body part on this earth. He reveals the true Jesus to us in real time. I'm not saying that the historical Jesus in human form isn't the true Jesus, He was. But this Jesus has been revealed to us ever since.

The historical records of the true Jesus, the Word become flesh, are so limited. But the Person of God's in flesh has been unveiling and revealing the true glorified living Jesus the Christ to this day.

Well, Word (Logos) theology is kind of on an island alone in the Bible. I am not saying it's wrong, but only John ever wrote about it, but no one else even mentioned it. I don't say 3-4 verses about the Word are representative of all of Scripture. What's curious is John 1:1,14 and 1 John 1:1-3 don't even the describe the Word in the same way.

 

[Runningman]

The Word became flesh so that He could be tempted and without sin.
That's where Uni's get all mixed up unable to distinguish between the two natures in Jesus.
He tired and thirsted- does God? No.
He said I came down from heaven - Does a human say that? No.
His father was not a man like yours. Does a human have an earthly father? Yes. Did Jesus? No.
I could go on all day.. You get the picture yet?

But what came down from heaven?

John 6
50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

 

[Runningman]

No, the real Jesus is not a created being. Any claim that He is denies the clear teaching of Scripture and presents a false Christ. John 1:1–3 makes it plain that Jesus, the Word, was with God in the beginning and was God, and that all things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. That means Jesus cannot be part of creation if He is the One through whom all creation came into existence. John 1:14 says the Word was made flesh, not created, He took on human nature, but He already existed eternally. Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus the “firstborn of every creature,” but the Greek word prototokos means preeminent or first in rank, not first created. If Paul meant Jesus was created, he would have used protoktistos, but he didn’t. In fact, the very next verse confirms this, “For by him were all things created.” Jesus is the Creator, not part of the creation. Revelation 3:14 refers to Jesus as “the beginning of the creation of God,” but the Greek word archē means source or origin, not the first thing created. Jesus is the origin of creation, not a product of it. The Bible repeatedly affirms that Jesus is eternal (Micah 5:2, John 8:58), the Creator (Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:16), and God Himself (John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8). To believe that Jesus is a created being is to believe in a false gospel and a false Christ. That is idolatry. The true Jesus is the eternal, uncreated Son of God who has always existed and who alone can save.

You are digging deeper and that is a good mindset to have. So let's examine John 1:1,14 a little closer and possibly take a look at the other verses. So you believe that Jesus is that Word even though it doesn't directly call him the Word in this context and that the Word was with God. Did you see in the Greek on John 1:1 that the Word (theos) is with God (ton Theon)? Definite articles specify a particular person, place, or thing. If I may ask, which God was the Word with?

Also, John 1:14 doesn't contain the Greek word for incarnation. It says the word "became" flesh. The word for "became" in the Bible never specifies an incarnation. Actually, it's normally used to talk about something that was created.

Also, while "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 does specify rank, it is also true that all of the other firstborns in the Bible refer to mortals who were created. So there is good precedent that that Jesus was created based on this verse. And "of every creature" is evidence that Jesus is not independent of the very creatures that he is the firstborn of and that would put Jesus in the same class as the creation.

I am glad you are looking at the Greek. Please take a look at the section in Colossians 1:16 that says "by him were all things created." The word for "by" in the Greek does not refer to authorship, but rather instrumentality, which would mean Jesus is not the creator anymore than a paintbrush is Bob Ross. Also, Colossians 1:15 is pretty specific that Jesus is of the creatures and we know that creatures are not the Creator. Please take a look at the full context as well since Colossians 1:15-18 refers to the context of Jesus being a human who bled on the cross. What was created through Jesus is the church is this context.

You bring up an interesting point with Revelation 3:14, but Jesus being the "beginning" of the creation of God is a valid and honest translation. Based on John 1:1,14 that teaches that Jesus was created, Colossians 1:15 that teaches Jesus was created, there is good precedent for understanding that Jesus was created. There are also more verses that explicitly state that Jesus is created. For example, Proverbs 8:22 says that God created wisdom, but 1 Corinthians 1:24 says that Jesus is the wisdom of God. Therefore since Jesus is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created, Jesus was created.

I hate to quibble, but Micah 5:2 is not about Jesus. John 8:58 isn't a claim to being the I AM. If you will take a look at Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15 it's plain to see that the I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (a title never applied to Jesus in all of scripture) and that Jesus is His servant/son.

Hebrews 1:2 does not contain the word for "universe" or "worlds." It contains the word aión which refers specifically to time, not the material universe. "Universe" or "Worlds" in Hebrews 1:2 is a theological translation, not a literal one.

Titus 2:13 in the KJV makes a sharp distinct between Jesus and God.

Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6 where in the original context it is talking about a human king who was married to a beautiful queen. God nor Jesus are not married and they don't have queens. The point of transferring Psalm 45:6 to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8 is to point out that Jesus is a human ruler, not God Almighty, which is a valid way to translate the word elohim. God Almighty and Jesus are not the same person and according to Hebrews 1:9 it says he has a God. God doesn't have a God. Please see Revelation 1:4-8 and Revelation 21:22 for additional verses about how Jesus and God are not the same person.

 

[bdavidc]

You are digging deeper and that is a good mindset to have. So let's examine John 1:1,14 a little closer and possibly take a look at the other verses. So you believe that Jesus is that Word even though it doesn't directly call him the Word in this context and that the Word was with God. Did you see in the Greek on John 1:1 that the Word (theos) is with God (ton Theon)? Definite articles specify a particular person, place, or thing. If I may ask, which God was the Word with?

Also, John 1:14 doesn't contain the Greek word for incarnation. It says the word "became" flesh. The word for "became" in the Bible never specifies an incarnation. Actually, it's normally used to talk about something that was created.

Also, while "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 does specify rank, it is also true that all of the other firstborns in the Bible refer to mortals who were created. So there is good precedent that that Jesus was created based on this verse. And "of every creature" is evidence that Jesus is not independent of the very creatures that he is the firstborn of and that would put Jesus in the same class as the creation.

I am glad you are looking at the Greek. Please take a look at the section in Colossians 1:16 that says "by him were all things created." The word for "by" in the Greek does not refer to authorship, but rather instrumentality, which would mean Jesus is not the creator anymore than a paintbrush is Bob Ross. Also, Colossians 1:15 is pretty specific that Jesus is of the creatures and we know that creatures are not the Creator. Please take a look at the full context as well since Colossians 1:15-18 refers to the context of Jesus being a human who bled on the cross. What was created through Jesus is the church is this context.

You bring up an interesting point with Revelation 3:14, but Jesus being the "beginning" of the creation of God is a valid and honest translation. Based on John 1:1,14 that teaches that Jesus was created, Colossians 1:15 that teaches Jesus was created, there is good precedent for understanding that Jesus was created. There are also more verses that explicitly state that Jesus is created. For example, Proverbs 8:22 says that God created wisdom, but 1 Corinthians 1:24 says that Jesus is the wisdom of God. Therefore since Jesus is the wisdom of God and wisdom was created, Jesus was created.

I hate to quibble, but Micah 5:2 is not about Jesus. John 8:58 isn't a claim to being the I AM. If you will take a look at Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15 it's plain to see that the I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (a title never applied to Jesus in all of scripture) and that Jesus is His servant/son.

Hebrews 1:2 does not contain the word for "universe" or "worlds." It contains the word aión which refers specifically to time, not the material universe. "Universe" or "Worlds" in Hebrews 1:2 is a theological translation, not a literal one.

Titus 2:13 in the KJV makes a sharp distinct between Jesus and God.

Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6 where in the original context it is talking about a human king who was married to a beautiful queen. God nor Jesus are not married and they don't have queens. The point of transferring Psalm 45:6 to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8 is to point out that Jesus is a human ruler, not God Almighty, which is a valid way to translate the word elohim. God Almighty and Jesus are not the same person and according to Hebrews 1:9 it says he has a God. God doesn't have a God. Please see Revelation 1:4-8 and Revelation 21:22 for additional verses about how Jesus and God are not the same person.

I appreciate your willingness to dig into the Greek, but the issue here isn’t just language, it’s context. When you take the whole of Scripture together, the case is clear: Jesus is not a created being. He is the eternal Word, fully God.

John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word,” not “the Word came into existence.” The Word was with God (pros ton Theon) and was God (Theos). The lack of the article before “Theos” doesn’t make Him less than God, it highlights His divine nature. John 1:14 says the Word became flesh (egeneto). That’s not about being created, it’s about taking on a new form, God becoming man. John 8:58 backs this up when Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I am.” The Greek ego eimi mirrors Exodus 3:14, and the Jews understood He was claiming the divine name. They picked up stones because He claimed to be the I AM.

Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus the “firstborn of all creation,” but prototokos refers to position and rank, not origin. David was called firstborn in Psalm 89:27, though he wasn’t the oldest. Colossians 1:16 clears up the meaning: “By Him were all things created, visible and invisible.” The Greek dia means Jesus is the agent of creation, not a passive tool. John 1:3 agrees: “Without Him was not anything made that was made.” If Jesus were created, He’d fall under “things that were made,” which the verse says is impossible.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus the “beginning” (arche) of creation, but arche often means source or origin. He’s the starting point of all creation, not the first creature. Proverbs 8:22 personifies wisdom poetically, it’s not a prophecy about Christ being created. When 1 Corinthians 1:24 calls Jesus the wisdom of God, it means He embodies divine wisdom, not that He’s identical with that poetic figure.

Micah 5:2 says the Messiah’s goings forth are from everlasting. That’s eternal existence. John 8:58 confirms it. Hebrews 1:2 says God made the ages through the Son, and verse 3 says He upholds all things by His power. That’s Creator language. Hebrews 1:8 quotes Psalm 45:6, “Your throne, O God, is forever.” The Father calls the Son God. Verse 9 just shows the Son submitting in role, not nature.

Titus 2:13, in Greek, reads “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” That’s one person, not two. Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28), and Jesus didn’t correct him. In Revelation 1:8, Jesus says, “I am the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Revelation 21:22 shows distinction between Father and Son, but both are equally divine.

Scripture is consistent. Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Creator of all things, and fully God. Denying that is not deep study, it’s rejection of what the Bible plainly says.

 

[One 2 question]

Well, Word (Logos) theology is kind of on an island alone in the Bible. I am not saying it's wrong, but only John ever wrote about it, but no one else even mentioned it. I don't say 3-4 verses about the Word are representative of all of Scripture. What's curious is John 1:1,14 and 1 John 1:1-3 don't even the describe the Word in the same way.

You are not saying that Jesus Himself never refered to Himself as the Word of God are you? And that John never heard Jesus say this over the time He was with Jesus?

Of course, just because it's not in the bibles, it doesn't mean Jesus didn't do or say something. As most of what He did was never written down.

It could be said, being born again was only mentioned on one occassion by Jesus. And Peter used the phrase once.

John 3:5:
Jesus clarifies, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

1 Peter 1:23:
Peter writes, "Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."

Does this make it any less important or hold less weight?

Then again who knows how many times Jesus and Peter actually used the term 'born again' in their many many not recorded sermons and conversations.

 

[Runningman]

You are not saying that Jesus Himself never refered to Himself as the Word of God are you? And that John never heard Jesus say this over the time He was with Jesus?

Of course, just because it's not in the bibles, it doesn't mean Jesus didn't do or say something. As most of what He did was never written down.

It could be said, being born again was only mentioned on one occassion by Jesus. And Peter used the phrase once.

John 3:5:
Jesus clarifies, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

1 Peter 1:23:
Peter writes, "Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."

Does this make it any less important or hold less weight?

Then again who knows how many times Jesus and Peter actually used the term 'born again' in their many many not recorded sermons and conversations.

You have a great point. Who knows what else was said? There are apparently some lost letters and books of the Bible, too.

 

[PS95]

But what came down from heaven?

John 6
50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

no idea what you are asking me.