Are you giving God a fair trial?

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KingJ

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I used to feel that God was to blame for many things. I never challenged these assumptions properly. This can happen so easily today in our Christian walk. I put this together for an atheist site but also feel it is a meaningful topic for Christians to discuss.

We accuse God of so many things. Are we giving God a fair trial when we do this? Can God be exempt of anything when He created everything? Is God justified in sending many to eternal punishment in hell? Is God justified in taking your loved ones before their old age? Do you blame God for not blessing you with more money or healing when the person next to you is?

Before we throw stones at God, lets' stop and ask ourselves, 'Are we giving God a fair trial?'

Surely If we can see a flaw, so too can our God and Creator! We all make the mistake of assuming God is dumb. We arrogantly, laughably and embarrassingly assume we know better then God.

In judging God we need to understand something about Him and the bible that is paramount. Namely, that scripture is limiting factors imposed by Him on Himself. He does what pleases Him and giving Himself these limiting factors in His dealings with us, His creation, pleases Him. Scripture is thus a clear source on which to judge Him. An important limiting factor that God has chosen to impose on Himself and extremely important in our judgement of God for us to grasp, is our free will. Yes you are correct to say ''God created everything and knows everything, therefore God must have made people to go to hell'. Well done, you have proven your brain is working and able to grasp the obvious. Now grasp that God does what pleases Him. It pleases God to give man-kind free will. Scripture clearly teaches that God is just, fair and NO respecter of persons. Take a while to meditate on this. Consider all your accusations of God in light of it.

So now, let us humbly and respectfully judge God our Creator. Jumping to the questions raised in the OP.

1) Is God justified in sending many to eternal punishment in hell? If we choose from free will to reject Him, living in a place away from His presence is surely inevitable? He will not over-ride our choice out of free will to reject Him by taking us out of hell. The obvious chief issue being the subject of suffering. Will there be suffering in hell? We know Jesus suffered for sins. We know that it pleases God that the wages of sin is death. If we look at our 'free will' fore-runners, the angels. The fallen angels clearly sinned and received judgement of banishment and impending suffering in the lake of fire. They are not quite enduring the sentence of ''suffering'' for sins now. They currently seem to only be in a state of banishment from God's presence. Scripture says God is a fair judge. It is safe to assume God will be a fair judge on judgement day. It seems that 'eternal punishment' mentioned by Jesus involves both suffering and banishment. God does all He can to draw us to Him. He has reached out to us with the greatest act of love He can by sending His Son to be a sacrifice for us. God is fully exempt in my books!

2) Is God justified in taking your loved ones before there old age? Understanding how God came into existence and His specific timing on taking us fitting into His grand plan is beyond our mental capacity. We can only thank Him for making us and giving us the time we did have with our loved ones. If we had to go on and ask 'why does God allow evil people to exist that would hurt or kill our loved ones'. We need to understand that God gives everyone their right to exercise their free will (He treats everyone equally). Everyone alive today is breathing by His mercy. He has mercy on the evil, only because He has hope that they will one-day repent.

3) Do you blame God for not blessing you with more money or healing when the person next to you is? We need to understand that until we 'accept God', His hands are in a sense tied from helping us, by imposing upon Himself the limiting factor of our free will to reject Him. God will not interfere in our lives unless we want Him to. Just as a husband can only be expected to be faithful / helpful on a continuous basis to his own wife and kids. The only requirement to God hearing our prayers (unless it is the prayer of repentance from sin and acceptance of Him) is for us to get / be saved (accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour). Then, the only requirement to God the Father answering our prayer is, His will. This may or may not be what we want. We grow in trust from experiences that He is good. We also understand that richness is not always money but more inner and heaven bound rewards as mother Theresa showed.

I want to add, is God evil for destroying Sodom and Gomorrah? Egyptians? If we consider how He warned all before He acted and look closely at Nineveh and what God said to Jonah, No He is not! God was clearly saddened at having to wipe out all the inhabitants and even the animals. God tries His best to reach out to us! In both the OT and the NT. The law He has put in place on sin is irreversible unless we repent. In order to repent of sin we have to hate sin. In order to not repent of sin we have to like sin. It is really our doing and not illogical. We bring God's inevitable wrath upon ourselves by being lovers of sin.

Lets' not make the silly / naïve / common mistake of looking at only one side of the coin. Lets' be honest and use our common sense before we try find fault with God. It is always easier to throw a stone at our Creator then look inwards at our own shortcomings.
 

7angels

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you posted a nice reason for explaining the op. even though you have nice reasoning it is not very convincing.
KingJ said:
I used to feel that God was to blame for many things. I never challenged these assumptions properly. This can happen so easily today in our Christian walk. I put this together for an atheist site but also feel it is a meaningful topic for Christians to discuss.

We accuse God of so many things. Are we giving God a fair trial when we do this? Can God be exempt of anything when He created everything? Is God justified in sending many to eternal punishment in hell? Is God justified in taking your loved ones before their old age? Do you blame God for not blessing you with more money or healing when the person next to you is?

Before we throw stones at God, lets' stop and ask ourselves, 'Are we giving God a fair trial?'

Surely If we can see a flaw, so too can our God and Creator! We all make the mistake of assuming God is dumb. We arrogantly, laughably and embarrassingly assume we know better then God.

In judging God we need to understand something about Him and the bible that is paramount. Namely, that scripture is limiting factors imposed by Him on Himself. He does what pleases Him and giving Himself these limiting factors in His dealings with us, His creation, pleases Him. Scripture is thus a clear source on which to judge Him. An important limiting factor that God has chosen to impose on Himself and extremely important in our judgement of God for us to grasp, is our free will. Yes you are correct to say ''God created everything and knows everything, therefore God must have made people to go to hell'. Well done, you have proven your brain is working and able to grasp the obvious. Now grasp that God does what pleases Him. It pleases God to give man-kind free will. Scripture clearly teaches that God is just, fair and NO respecter of persons. Take a while to meditate on this. Consider all your accusations of God in light of it.

So now, let us humbly and respectfully judge God our Creator. Jumping to the questions raised in the OP.

1) Is God justified in sending many to eternal punishment in hell? If we choose from free will to reject Him, living in a place away from His presence is surely inevitable? He will not over-ride our choice out of free will to reject Him by taking us out of hell. The obvious chief issue being the subject of suffering. Will there be suffering in hell? We know Jesus suffered for sins. We know that it pleases God that the wages of sin is death. If we look at our 'free will' fore-runners, the angels. The fallen angels clearly sinned and received judgement of banishment and impending suffering in the lake of fire. They are not quite enduring the sentence of ''suffering'' for sins now. They currently seem to only be in a state of banishment from God's presence. Scripture says God is a fair judge. It is safe to assume God will be a fair judge on judgement day. It seems that 'eternal punishment' mentioned by Jesus involves both suffering and banishment. God does all He can to draw us to Him. He has reached out to us with the greatest act of love He can by sending His Son to be a sacrifice for us. God is fully exempt in my books!
according to scripture God does not send us to hell but we send ourselves to hell. all throughout scripture the word teaches that God came to save and not condemn. the thing is that in order for us to be saved we need to have relationship with God. God uses many different ways to get our attention and show us that what we are doing is wrong. but ultimately it is up to us to decide our own futures. if we obey God and have a relationship with God then we will be saved but if we don't want relationship with God or don't have relationship with God then we are destined to Hell.
2) Is God justified in taking your loved ones before there old age? Understanding how God came into existence and His specific timing on taking us fitting into His grand plan is beyond our mental capacity. We can only thank Him for making us and giving us the time we did have with our loved ones. If we had to go on and ask 'why does God allow evil people to exist that would hurt or kill our loved ones'. We need to understand that God gives everyone their right to exercise their free will (He treats everyone equally). Everyone alive today is breathing by His mercy. He has mercy on the evil, only because He has hope that they will one-day repent.
according to scripture God is a God of Good and only gives good and perfect gifts. the word also teaches that God wants us to live a long and healthy life full of joy, peace, and ect. so if we are not living as God set things up according to his word then does that mean God has 2 wills? why isn't the second will of God also in the bible unless God did not know from the beginning that he want a certain person to die early. in other words God cannot see everything that goes on right? God forbid. according to scripture satan is the one who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. so it is not God that takes your loved ones early but satan. it is not even God that allows it to happen. God tells us in his word that if you do this then you will have a long life or joyous life, and ect... but if we are not doing as the word teaches then God tells us that death will rule within our lives. we may have trials and temptations come upon us but as long as we stay firm in God everything will work out. the only problem i foresee happening is people living contrary to the word of God which causes death to happen in our lives and christians think that it must be a trial or temptation come upon them and it is not a trial or temptation but death working within their lives due to sin.
3) Do you blame God for not blessing you with more money or healing when the person next to you is? We need to understand that until we 'accept God', His hands are in a sense tied from helping us, by imposing upon Himself the limiting factor of our free will to reject Him. God will not interfere in our lives unless we want Him to. Just as a husband can only be expected to be faithful / helpful on a continuous basis to his own wife and kids. The only requirement to God hearing our prayers (unless it is the prayer of repentance from sin and acceptance of Him) is for us to get / be saved (accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour). Then, the only requirement to God the Father answering our prayer is, His will. This may or may not be what we want. We grow in trust from experiences that He is good. We also understand that richness is not always money but more inner and heaven bound rewards as mother Theresa showed.
God is sovereign and as such God can heal and bless an unsaved person just as much as he can heal and bless a saved person. but according to the word of God if we obey the conditions written in the bible then God is obligated to bless us as his word says. the reason God is obligated to bless us is because of the covenant he made. i am in blood covenant with God the Father and everything that is his is mine and everything that is mine is his. very few people in the western world really understand covenant and confuse it with contracts. there is a big difference between the two.
I want to add, is God evil for destroying Sodom and Gomorrah? Egyptians? If we consider how He warned all before He acted and look closely at Nineveh and what God said to Jonah, No He is not! God was clearly saddened at having to wipe out all the inhabitants and even the animals. God tries His best to reach out to us! In both the OT and the NT. The law He has put in place on sin is irreversible unless we repent. In order to repent of sin we have to hate sin. In order to not repent of sin we have to like sin. It is really our doing and not illogical. We bring God's inevitable wrath upon ourselves by being lovers of sin.
this part is hard for me to explain.
Lets' not make the silly / naïve / common mistake of looking at only one side of the coin. Lets' be honest and use our common sense before we try find fault with God. It is always easier to throw a stone at our Creator then look inwards at our own shortcomings.
 

KingJ

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Mar 18, 2011
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7angels said:
according to scripture God does not send us to hell but we send ourselves to hell. all throughout scripture the word teaches that God came to save and not condemn. the thing is that in order for us to be saved we need to have relationship with God. God uses many different ways to get our attention and show us that what we are doing is wrong. but ultimately it is up to us to decide our own futures. if we obey God and have a relationship with God then we will be saved but if we don't want relationship with God or don't have relationship with God then we are destined to Hell
Perhaps point out what exactly I said that prompted you to say this? What exactly do you disagree with? Do you assume I would disagree with this? I am really puzzled!


according to scripture God is a God of Good and 1) only gives good and perfect gifts. the word also teaches that God wants us to live a long and healthy 2) life full of joy, peace, and ect. so if we are not living as God set things up according to his word then 3) does that mean God has 2 wills? why isn't the second will of God also in the bible unless God did not know from the beginning that he want a certain person to die early. in other words 4) God cannot see everything that goes on right? God forbid. 5) according to scripture satan is the one who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. so 6) it is not God that takes your loved ones early but satan. it is not even God that allows it to happen. God tells us in his word that if you do this then you will have a long life or joyous life, and ect... but if we are not doing as the word teaches then God tells us that death will rule within our lives. we may have trials and temptations come upon us but as long as we stay firm in God everything will work out. the only problem i foresee happening is people living contrary to the word of God which causes death to happen in our lives and christians think that it must be a trial or temptation come upon them and it is not a trial or temptation but death working within their lives due to sin.
The underlined is terrible discerning on your part. The bold is correct but contradicts the underlined. The italics are borderline. Allow me to explain:

1) Was the devil a gift to Adam and Eve? I would say yes, but most won't see it as that. Think about it. God surely had the power to put the devil on another planet. If He didn't, then it was a gift from Him? Come now lets be honest, no dodging and naiveness.God puts things in place that we may not always perceive with our puny brains as good. But sure, at the end of the day we will be able to say that God is indeed good and your bold which I agree 100% with.

2) We are promised that in heaven. Jesus says those who hated Him will hate us too. Is this a God fearing or un-Godly world? What God promises is that 'His grace is sufficient for us'. Think about it. This is perhaps the ONLY chance God has to put us through trials and tribulation. A rosy life with riches and joy is carnal UNLESS you are referring to spiritual riches and joy? which is it?
3) No, it means your will is interfering with God's will. It is human nature to construe scripture for our pride and vanity. We are all guilty of it.
4) God forbid we do not have true free will. You would serve a God that shows favoritism (the result of no true free will)? You are in the wrong religion for that. Scripture clearly says God is no respecter of persons. I don' know why so many just can't accept that!!! Google 'inherent omniscience'.
5) Yes satan does. But we can do it too. The devil only sped up our fall. That is why we pay for our own sin in hell. The devil will not pay for your sin.The ability to fall exists in every free will creation. Most times we give the blame and too much credit to satan.
6) Giving too much credit to satan. Go read Job. God removed protection from Job. If the devil had his way all of us would be dead. You cannot pass a blanket rule that God's people will live long. It can only be generalized.

God is sovereign and as such God 1) can heal and bless an unsaved person just as much as he can heal and bless a saved person. but according to the word of God if we obey the conditions written in the bible then 2) God is obligated to bless us as his word says. 3) the reason God is obligated to bless us is because of the covenant he made. i am in blood covenant with God the Father and 3) everything that is his is mine and everything that is mine is his. very few people in the western world really understand covenant and confuse it with contracts. there is a big difference between the two.
1) Extreme error there 7 angels :eek:! John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. The only prayer God hears is the ''sinners'' prayer. Sure God can work through a child to bring healing to the unsaved. But it is mostly NOT His will and wise stewards will grasp this, as scripture says in John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.. Then there are also the accounts of where Jesus healed people and told them to go and tell nobody. We don't see healing preachers do that much at church do we.... :(.
2) We have moved on from holding God at gunpoint on scripture. Unless you are a Jew living before the resurrection of Jesus this is simply childish Christianity. Think of a marriage. My wife will do a million things for me because she knows I love her and she loves me. But should I hold her to anyone one of them, I will get a slap. My house-cleaner on the other hand, is paid to do chores and I can rely on her to do X and Y if I give her money (just like OT God with tithing). So how do you see your relationship with God?
3) I have a blood covenant with my wife. But she is certainly not obligated to satisfy my pride. She is obligated to LOVE me, which involves fruits, sure, but dare I hold her to them! Are you married? I can only hold my wife to the marriage vows. Likewise with Jesus our groom. I am curious, what would you say your marriage vows to Jesus are?
4) I agree,but am puzzled, how are you not confusing the covenant with a contract in your first paragraph? Just to add, sure everything God has is ours. But what we have to grasp, just like Jesus did, we are here to submit to and do God's will NOT our own. We can drive God's fancy car in heaven, not now! It is His will that our reward and riches be mostly stored in heaven. Would you agree?
 

7angels

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i started to answer your questions but as i started going through i noticed a very interesting fact about you but i need to stop this discussion before it turns into a debate. i know where you are coming from but you don't understand my stance. i don't want to make you angry or anything. the fact i am referring to is that you speak the logos but have no rhema. i try and show you the meat of the word but you are not ready for meat but are still on milk.

i mean no offense but this is why i need to stop this discussion. we will just have to agree on disagreeing with each other. i wish you all blessing.
 

KingJ

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7angels said:
i started to answer your questions but as i started going through i noticed a very interesting fact about you but i need to stop this discussion before it turns into a debate. i know where you are coming from but you don't understand my stance. i don't want to make you angry or anything. the fact i am referring to is that you speak the logos but have no rhema. i try and show you the meat of the word but you are not ready for meat but are still on milk.

i mean no offense but this is why i need to stop this discussion. we will just have to agree on disagreeing with each other. i wish you all blessing.
The OP has stood well against much atheism bashing and been approved by Christians I highly respect.

No offence but your reply seemed blurry, you have to forgive me if I jumped the gun and got the just of your belief wrong.

When you make statements like ''even though you have nice reasoning it is not very convincing, i noticed a very interesting fact about you but i need to stop, i try and show you the meat of the word but you are not ready for meat but are still on milk'' I think you are chewing raw meat today ;).