Are You In A Church Like The One Jesus Set Up?

[TallMan]

Tallman, I am not sure if your saying that a true Church has to speak in tongues (or at least believe in the gift) or should we go sell everything, and be chased by people looking to constantly kill us. What are your thoughts about being a Church like we find the first Church in Acts.

There is a difference between doctrine (truth) which is constant and administration which may vary according to the need of the situation.

Scripture is sayoing that people will immediately speak in tongues when they receivce God's Spirit (become a Christian). The other things you mention were never commanded, they were the obvious way to deal with a temporary situation that arose.

In fact there weren't teaching that people needed to sell everything ("Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? " Acts 5:4),
people chose to share - they didn't have the welfare state in those days. Similarly people scarttered when Herod was out to kill people.

Also, if it is the first Church, and they yet had the full scriptures, and computers to look up scriptures. Would we not want to accomplish more, and be improved though the years??

What do you suggest?
I'm with an international fellowship building on the same foundadtion as you read in Acts.
We find that poorer nations without computers & internet are more receptive to bible salvation.
Others want to debate, research, discuss but rarely stick to the original.

 

[TallMan]

...I recognise it as a gift of the spirit bt why can't I do it?

Matthew 16:13-19
"Thou art Peter and on this rock I shall build my Church gainst which the gates of hell shall not prevail."
Are these the words that started the church? Has this been misinterpretted> Any thoughts?

Because you havn't received the Spirit of God... when you do you will.

Please, just read Acts 2, put yourself there, you will hear a clear message, unlike what you have been taught.
If you choose to go with what Peter (really the Holy Spirit speaking through him), you will call on The Lord for the same, and if you want nothing more because you are convinced you need it, you will receive the same.

So tm, what was the church Jesus set up? What was important: What was taught or how it was taught? It is far more important to be in a church that teaches the message taught in Acts and 1 Cor. Of course if you teach a message in a language that the members of that church do not understand, the message is worthless. That is the miracle of Acts 2, the people gathered heard Peter’s message in their own language, and to the very dialect the spoke. The message came out of Peter's mouth as Aramaic and entered the listeners ears as another known language.

I note you don't actually answer the Q Jerry? why is this?

If you read the passages I mentioned you will see that the church was people all infilled by Chroist's Spirit, and knowing precisely when they received (as one should expect!)
Tongues was never for teaching - the passage itself teaches this!
In Acts 2:12-14 as soon as Peter realises that people were over-hearing people speaking to God in tongues he stands up, they stop speaking in tongues and he begins to speak to the crowd in the common learned language (aramaic) - then they understand and repent and 3000 are added - added to what? - the 120 who have just received the Spirit!

Before Peter preached the significance of tongues they were left in confusion, showing that tongues was never for preaching to people.
The same is true today, tongues is primarily for personal prayer ("praying in the Spirit") and secondarily a sign for non-christians but must be followed by a gift of interpretation.

 

[Templar81]

I have recieved the spirit of God. I know many people who've never spoken in tongues, so does that mean we'll go to hell? Trust me I've esperienced the Holy spirit during services, during the laying on of hands at my Confirmation and in the Blessed sacrament. I can mjsut imagine standing at the last judgement and the rcording angel looking up my lie in a book and saying, "well I don't know about this guy, he never spoke in tongues, let's send him down there." How utterly reidiculous.

I've been baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I've been confirmed and I've recieved the Body and Blood of our Lord made present in the Holy Eucharist and you say I've never recieved the spirit of God just because I can't speak in tongues. You sir are seriously mistaken.

Just out of interest are the chairmtics and Pentecostals out there who can't speak in tongues?

Sorry about the rant but I do not feel Tallman's comment is appropriate as he does not know what I have experienced.

 

[JarBreaker]

it is my personal understanding that those who speak in tongues, do so as (a front) to try to influence others of their closeness to god thus receiving that "self edification" that paul spoke of.

The way you word this wouldnt be edification, it would be PUFFING UP, building the ego not the spirit man.

 

[Foreigner]

it is my personal understanding that those who speak in tongues, do so as (a front) to try to influence others of their closeness to god thus receiving that "self edification" that paul spoke of.

-- According to Snip, millions of Spirit-filled Christians speak in tongues...as 'a front.'
Priceless. Simply priceless.

You pray and praise in private. You also pray and praise with the body in church.

If your praise leads you to praise in tongues, that is between you and the Holy Spirit, who likely prompted it and who sees the true nature and motive of your heart.

Someone claiming it is just 'a front' should be more worried about the plank in their own eye.

 

[sniper762]

-- It would appear in this case that 'personal understanding' is an oxymoron.

You pray and praise in private. You also pray and praise with the body in church.

If your praise leads you to praise in tongues, that is between you and the Holy Spirit, who likely prompted it and who sees the true nature and motive of your heart.

Someone claiming it is just 'a front' should be more worried about the plank in their own eye.

i get my comprehension from the words of god, spokenn through paul. nevertheless, YOU and GOD know the reason that you do what you do.

 

[Brother Mike]

Templar81:

Just out of interest are the chairmtics and Pentecostals out there who can't speak in tongues?

Speaking in tongues is evidence of being filled with the Holy Ghost like in the book of Acts. Sort of a no brainier that You need the Holy Spirit to do so.

One sign of the Holy Spirit in our Personal lives is being led by the Spirit of God. Most need teaching in this subject, and need to learn to recognize how. Hearing from God on situations is very helpful.

Now, if your filled with the Holy Spirit, but never taught on the subject of Tongues, then where would you get the faith for Tongues?

So, Yes. There are lots of Spirit filled people that do not speak in tongues. Though they can, they have no reference to how, or even that they should. The Holy Spirit is our helping, He is not going to make you talk if you read my testimony above.

People in the Charismatic Circles that do not speak in tongues, are embarrassed about it, and part of what I do is Help them as directed by the Holy Spirit. I am not Charismatic really. (Word Of Faith) but I do call on folks to come and get the gift flowing. It's just a matter of getting their flesh out of the way,and allowing the Holy Spirit to work.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[01CobraVortech]

I've never spoken in tongues and I certianly believe I received the Holy Spirit at some point. Say it ain't so.

 

[sniper762]

speaking in tongues is a LEARNED practice. if you hadnt seen others do it, you never would.

 

[01CobraVortech]

speaking in tongues is a LEARNED practice. if you hadnt seen others do it, you never would.

Hey you have a manual? I need to speak German pronto. :lol:

 

[Brother Mike]

speaking in tongues is a LEARNED practice. if you hadnt seen others do it, you never would.

It is not a learned language...........It would be more easy to help you brothers with this, if I were there. I think the thing is, if you read my story, You will see I really sought after this gift, when others seem to get it so easy. The bible says if you seek, you will find. If this is something you really want, then God is faithful, and get it over to you in a way that you fully understand.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Templar81]

I thought the whole point of speaking in tongues was that you couldn't learn it.

Just out of interest; do you think there are people who fake it? How do you know when it is real?

 

[sniper762]

why does the bible say tat no man can interpret it if you say you can?

 

[HammerStone]

Unfortunately men (and women) putting requirements on other men (and women) is nothing new under the sun. It becomes the litmus test for being a true Christian, and it comes to a point where you are less of a Christian because you don't speak tongues like all the others.

Perhaps most unfortunately this sign is sought after in a manner that totally contradicts Scripture:

I Corinthians 12:8-11
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

However you interpret the word "tongues" here - see I Corinthians 14:21 - it's pretty clear that there are different gifts and not everyone has them. It certainly does not denote a lack of the Holy Spirit as some men would proclaim. Just like the Pharisees that strained at a gnat, these requirements become the unwritten rule as what Scripture says on the matter is subsequently and totally ignored. Unlike others, I don't charge that someone is less in the Spirit because they don't know every part of Scripture, but I do like to point this passage out in I Corinthians 12 that shows the danger of placing requirements on folks. I thank God it doesn't work that way. Anytime a man has to see you do something to prove your salvation or how much of a Christian you are - well you know what you're dealing with there.

I admire and respect many parts of the movement to return to the Holy Spirit and account for this power that Christians often neglect, but this is a point where I draw the line. As the many threads here will witness, this topic comes up over and over and still over again.

 

[Brother Mike]

Templar81:

Just out of interest; do you think there are people who fake it? How do you know when it is real?

Hammerstone:

I admire and respect many parts of the movement to return to the Holy Spirit and account for this power that Christians often neglect, but this is a point where I draw the line. As the many threads here will witness, this topic comes up over and over and still over again.

The Topic of Tongues does come up a lot. As I said above, the Gifts are given as the Spirit of God wills. We can Lay hands on the sick, and use our faith with someone's else, but that does not mean the Gift of Healings is in operation.
We can't force these gifts.

Tongues outside of Church is a prayer tool, praise tool. It enables us to go beyond our understanding, and rely on the Holy Spirit. I gave scriptures above.

Now for the question of how do we know it is really tongues? I gave my story above, from flesh speaking garbage, to the real thing. There is a big difference. After many years, it is easy to forget that it is supernatural.
Tongues come from our spirit and not our head, you can hold a conversation with someone and while your talking try to do simple math problems. If your really concentrating on the conversation, you can't.

Tongues come from your spirit by the Holy Spirit, and is separate from you head. You can pray in tongues, and still concentrate on other things while speaking. That is hard to do if your speaking from you head.

Now count backward from 10, then when you get around to 5, stop and say your name. What happened to the counting in your head?

If you seek after this gift, then God is faithful. He will get you to the place you need to be to receive.

Be blessed

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Foreigner]

i get my comprehension from the words of god, spokenn through paul. nevertheless, YOU and GOD know the reason that you do what you do.

-- Funny, I get my comprehension from the same place. But I have chosen to actually put it into practice.
Yes, God and I do know the reason. And since you don't you are obviously in no position to comment.
That's no better than making baseless overreaching comments such as saying that the millions of fellow Christians who speak in tongues are using it as 'a front.'
Plank first, THEN splinter.

This is not one of those times where, "Those who can't, teach."



And as far as Robsters comment, "I've never spoken in tongues and I certianly believe I received the Holy Spirit at some point. Say it ain't so"
Of course you received the Holy Spirit. You did the moment you gave your life to Jesus. I don't think anyone here has said otherwise.


Those who Speak in Tongues and can attest to how it benefits their relationship with Jesus should not be attacked the way they are on this board.
To date I have not seen anyone here say that you need to do this or you are not a Christian so give them a break.

 

[Brother Mike]

Foreigner:

I know Sniper762 comment was sort Of out there, but it comes from someone that has looked into Tongues, and just yet does not understand it. Some people choose to put down the goodness of God, or make something up like it's all done away with. Every Doctrine that says God does not heal today, no tongues today is based on experience. Not everyone has matured to the point of bringing themselves up to God's Word. The Word tries, and proves us, not the other way around.

I see lots of things in the Word I have not experienced, and have fallen way short. Frustrating as it is, I am not about to write a book on how it's God's will not to do that anymore. I need to change, and continue to change.

HammerStone has seen lots of topics about tongues, as I have also. It is one of those tricky subjects that people just don't understand, because of their own faith walk. Not accepting the gift, is just a symptom of many other things they are not willing to believe.

If you see my story about How I spoke in tongues above, you will see I just believed the scripture and acted on it as if the Word was true. I did not have it so easy like you see on TV where everyone just gets knocked out by God, and start speaking in tongues.

In these Last days though, it will be very important to hang on God's Word. Things that look as if they are true and good will not be. It will take the same kind of faith to believe the Word of God, when everything else looks different. it is the same kind of faith that receives tongues, to not be deceived into believing fluff.

Be blessed my Brother..

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[HammerStone]

Those who Speak in Tongues and can attest to how it benefits their relationship with Jesus should not be attacked the way they are on this board.
To date I have not seen anyone here say that you need to do this or you are not a Christian so give them a break.

Perhaps we agree to disagree, but the very topic and OP of this thread contains that.

The topic is, of course, "Are You In A Church Like The One Jesus Set Up?"

where all have received His Spirit, speaking in tongues?

The implication being couched somewhat but shown to be the idea that if your church doesn't speak tongues (everyone) then you're not in a "real" church.

And later:

Scripture is sayoing that people will immediately speak in tongues when they receivce God's Spirit (become a Christian).

For me the key word there in the first quote is all. I admit perhaps my grip of the language used here is off, but I'll let the OP clarify that. If he wants to do so, that's fine by me. However, I've seen this play out time and again with tongues. I prefer to head things off at the pass because yes, I have dealt with many folks that make tongues a focal point of church and this "receiving the Holy Spirit" phrase that seems to get couched in language. (The implication being that the person has not received the spirit because they don't speak in their version of tongues... or, at best, is just less faithful than them...)

If you don't want to take my word for it, try out the search feature for the forums here. There's an ultra-defensive nature about tongues for some reason. Again note that I've never made a comment about tongues directly one way or another. I simply make remarks about the folks out there who use them to discern a Christian or at least someone who has received the Holy Spirit. I'm merely pointing out that regardless of belief, the Bible clearly says tongues are one of many gifts and certainly not something everyone has. This rather clearly makes them no less Christian and certainly is not an exclusive sign of Spirit indwelling as some would suggest subtly or not.

I don't really see anything offensive in the above. If it's not being done, then it doesn't apply to them.

 

[jerryjohnson]

....

If you read the passages I mentioned you will see that the church was people all infilled by Chroist's Spirit, and knowing precisely when they received (as one should expect!)
Tongues was never for teaching - the passage itself teaches this!
In Acts 2:12-14 as soon as Peter realises that people were over-hearing people speaking to God in tongues he stands up, they stop speaking in tongues and he begins to speak to the crowd in the common learned language (aramaic) - then they understand and repent and 3000 are added - added to what? - the 120 who have just received the Spirit!

Before Peter preached the significance of tongues they were left in confusion, showing that tongues was never for preaching to people.
The same is true today, tongues is primarily for personal prayer ("praying in the Spirit") and secondarily a sign for non-christians but must be followed by a gift of interpretation.

The tongues spoken of in Acts 2 were not some unknown prayer language. They were a teaching tool. The men visiting Jerusalem that day were from other areas, they were travelers visiting Jerusalem for the feast. They did not speak the same language Peter spoke. If Peter was going to teach in his language few would have understood the message and the message was the important occurrence that added to the church that day.

And as far as the gifts are concerned tongues are no where near the most important: 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


The answer to your question, tm, is yes, I am. And we speak English, sometimes we read a little Greek, and sometimes our prayer contains some Hebrew. We do not speak Spanish, French, or German because none of the group knows Spanish, French, or German.

 

[TallMan]

Unfortunately men (and women) putting requirements on other men (and women) is nothing new under the sun. It becomes the litmus test for being a true Christian, and it comes to a point where you are less of a Christian because you don't speak tongues like all the others.

The apostles certainly had a litmus test - they were able to judge precisely when people received the Spirit of God (and this is what I would expect! - how can one receive the perfect being without something significant happening?!) - Acts 2:4, 33; 8:18, 10:44-46, 19:5-6.

Conversely they knew that sincere believers had not yet received - Acts 8:12-16, 19:4-5.

So, either this revelation, this knowledge, has been lost, and you can no longer make that judgement, or you have to introduce some new way.

Unfortunately men (and women) are prone to being unfaithful to what God sets out.
Consider the garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4-6), people didn't like it so cut and dried... surely there is another way???

Perhaps most unfortunately this sign is sought after in a manner that totally contradicts Scripture:
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Well, it certainly contradicts your understanding of scripture... you are presenting this passage as detailing what different people get when they become Christians... but is that what this passage is really referring to?

Before we look at the context let's consider the verses themselves:

"to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge ...To another faith"

Now, do you, does anyone actually believe that only "one" or even only some people get wisdom, knowledge and faith when they become Christians?


How can you have the Spirit, the mind of Christ and the new heart but not have these things?
How can you even function as a Christian without any wisdom, knowledge and faith?

To teach that this passage refers to what different people get when they become Christians is without doubt the strangest doctrine I have ever heard!
There are so many scriptures affirming that all Christians have and should use and grow in these things.
It really is a contradiction of scripture to teach it!


Now let's consider the wider context:
Since the previous chapter Paul has been talking specifically about how God wants meetings to be run.
Thwe beginning of the letter affirms:

in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:5-7)

So, what were the Corinthians getting wrong?
Chapter 12 says they should not all act as one member and in Chapter 14 he specifically tells them not to all come together and speak in tongues, rather to seek to edify others when they meet.

- Paul tells them not to all speak in tongues, just 2 or 3, if, as you suggest only some Christians have the ability, this problem could never have arisen!

Conclusion: "the gift of tongues" is the giving to the church, the public use of what all have for private use (the main use). The same goes for the other attributes mentioned.

If you visit a church like the one in the bible where all pray in tongues privately but where the gifts are used in an orderly way in meetings, you will see and appreciate this simple distinction.