Arguments against Theistic Evolution

[Floyd]

KingJ; one has to remember the actions of the enemy under the guise of genuine participants!
Floyd.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ; one has to remember the actions of the enemy under the guise of genuine participants!
Floyd.

Agreed.

 

[Floyd]

KingJ; I take your point, I have seen so many in the past, that after a number of test points have been made I tend to conclude the worst.
I/we all know as true Christ-ones, that as the end of the Age gets closer, enemy action can be expected to intensify!
I wish you God speed and success in the Lord's work.
Regards.
Floyd.

 

[River Jordan]

Would you mind explaining yourself in numbers 1, 2, 9, 11 and 12.

To you? No. You're not asking these questions in good faith.

Then, 1. why do you say yes to 9 if you say '11. Yes, in general'? after saying yes to 14? A good and honest God, would either inspire or not inspire His word. And if He did, He would do it properly, surely?

Because I don't believe "inspired by God" is the same thing as "became a mindless instrument that God used to write".

2. How can you say yes in 5 confidently whilst saying yes in 13? If you were the devil and wanted to derail God's children, would you ignore science as a viable option?

It's also possible that Satan is using young-earth creationism as a means to make Christianity look stupid and backwards, thereby driving people away. If that's the case, it's working.

So these people were partially inspired by God? I wanted to see how you interpret these as you regard the 5 books of Moses as a Jewish charter myth. Not sure how any Christian can. Do you have a link to Christians who believe that? If you disregard the books of Moses how can you accept Jesus's teaching on the law being fulfilled...as fact?

See above.

Can you at least try help 'stupid me', a qualified CA with the correct math.

No, because you've shown absolutely no willingness to learn. That's hardly surprising given your declaration that even saying "evolution is science" is "urinating on scripture".

30 000 years of NO visible change = a visible change every 30k years correct? 30k goes into 550 million years 18 333 times = 18k visible changes between us and a flatworm. What am I missing? Should we not be evolving more then the flatworm too? Given that we have more molecules / population etc

No, not at all. If you're truly interested, I suggest taking a course in evolutionary biology.

Why do you say that? I do read your material. Those are valid questions. I was also keen on reading you explain the questions atheist evolutionists can't, like ''where did space come from''. Do you want me to narrow them down?

Yeah sure....I'm going to explain the entire history of the universe, and the evolutionary history of life on earth, to a person who has declared that saying evolution is science is the same as urinating on scripture.

I'll do that right after I go down to the street corner and explain US foreign policy to protesters from the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

You are an expert on US foreign policy as well?

Wow. Color me impressed.

 

[KingJ]

To you? No. You're not asking these questions in good faith.

What in the universe are you doing on a Christian site / being part of the Christian faith.... if you believe God is evil (natural selection is evil, just ask the individual being eaten ;)), intelligence is not = accountability (therefore babies and mentally handicapped may go to hell = God is evil again h34r:)...and the devil is not on earth...when so many scriptures ....not just OT place him there. I see you have not answered post # 99.

Because I don't believe "inspired by God" is the same thing as "became a mindless instrument that God used to write".

No, you believe inspired = myth. Humungous difference. You don't accept any scripture that doesn't match your personal belief. Why the dishonesty in your statement? When you are presented with scripture....you need to deal with it....Unless you think it is fine to serve a God that would lie to us...again, be evil. See how many ''evil'' insinuations of God your belief results in?

It's also possible that Satan is using young-earth creationism as a means to make Christianity look stupid and backwards, thereby driving people away. If that's the case, it's working. See above.

I certainly wish you would continue this line of thought. Satan will do anything to stumble us /make us look stupid, correct! even use scripture against us! Now...how did Jesus speak to satan when he did this with Him? Did he say science says X and Y, therefore I won't jump? Or did He say, it is '''also'' written X and Y.

Though....when you say science = mankind coming from apes...the devil will keep quiet too... I gaurantee it :).

No, because you've shown absolutely no willingness to learn. That's hardly surprising given your declaration that even saying "evolution is science" is "urinating on scripture".

Stop telling yourself I have no willingness to learn....and that evolution is true. If only you stopped yourself and others from telling you lies. Just breathe in the fresh air of scripture and fact of intelligent design.

I must 'believe' you are correct...when your type have been around since 600bc....debating the written word of God...Rofl. It is only in this evil day and age that you are able to call yourself a Christian whilst believing such heresy. That fact ''should'' make a God fearing person shiver .

Technically speaking...since I am more qualified then you...I have shown a greater desire to learn h34r:.

No, not at all. If you're truly interested, I suggest taking a course in evolutionary biology.

Now, why in the universe would I study something that logic and pre-school math debunks? Did you not grasp the math? I see your immense reluctance to bring actual numbers to the table. If you only would....

Yeah sure....I'm going to explain the entire history of the universe, and the evolutionary history of life on earth, to a person who has declared that saying evolution is science is the same as urinating on scripture.

Well, I would expect someone interested in biology to at least attempt it. I am interested in your explanations including ''the TE beliefs of 1. Set in motion by God and 2. guided by God''....which you exclude.... :blink: ....

I'll do that right after I go down to the street corner and explain US foreign policy to protesters from the Westboro Baptist Church.

But, I proposed to select some for you. You don't need to give detailed explanations. Short and sweet would suffice.

 

[Floyd]

Hi KingJ: There are a quite a few "Trolls" here, who appear to be sincere re. discussion and the Bible; but are in fact serving a different master to us!
One tends to find them every where, and they soon show their insincerity when confronted by Scripture.
What particularly gets to them is mention of their master Satan in less than favourable terms; or another sign is that they cannot use the term "my Lord Christ Jesus".
A speaker I knew 40 years ago stated that their activity would increase as the "end Age days" approached; he likened the overt demons interacting with the Lord during His first Advent.
Watch what this post brings!
There will either be complete silence; or scathing comment.
By the way; my wife and I have just returned from a very enjoyable holiday in Cape Town; a very nice place for a holiday!
I visited Jo-burg frequently during my work years, but CT is totally different.
The Lord be with you in your dealings with these entities!
Regards.
Floyd.

 

[snr5557]

I know that people disagree on interpretations of the Bible, but to call us Trolls is a little insensitive, and I would like to ask if you would not insult people.

Why must there be so much dislike between fundamentalists and progressives? God doesn't like infighting between His children, I don't think your interpretation is completely accurate but I would never try to insult you. Have I lost my temper here? Absolutely, but I have always tried to go back and apologize. Maybe you would have apologized later I don't know, but can we not discuss things calmly and without attacking each other?

Mark 12: 29 - 31

 

[KingJ]

Hi KingJ: There are a quite a few "Trolls" here, who appear to be sincere re. discussion and the Bible; but are in fact serving a different master to us!
One tends to find them every where, and they soon show their insincerity when confronted by Scripture.
What particularly gets to them is mention of their master Satan in less than favourable terms; or another sign is that they cannot use the term "my Lord Christ Jesus".
A speaker I knew 40 years ago stated that their activity would increase as the "end Age days" approached; he likened the overt demons interacting with the Lord during His first Advent.
Watch what this post brings!
There will either be complete silence; or scathing comment.
By the way; my wife and I have just returned from a very enjoyable holiday in Cape Town; a very nice place for a holiday!
I visited Jo-burg frequently during my work years, but CT is totally different.
The Lord be with you in your dealings with these entities!
Regards.
Floyd.

It is a no brainer that false teachers frequent Christian and neutral sites. They find their sites boring :).

Cape Town is a nice city. The 'Cape' is governed by a more 'intelligent' party. Though the weather, game reserves and beaches are all better elsewhere.

Your dollars must go far here!! Our currency takes a knock everytime our mine workers strike.

I know that people disagree on interpretations of the Bible, but to call us Trolls is a little insensitive, and I would like to ask if you would not insult people.

Why must there be so much dislike between fundamentalists and progressives? God doesn't like infighting between His children, I don't think your interpretation is completely accurate but I would never try to insult you. Have I lost my temper here? Absolutely, but I have always tried to go back and apologize. Maybe you would have apologized later I don't know, but can we not discuss things calmly and without attacking each other?

Mark 12: 29 - 31

The ''arguing / name calling'' needs to be judged further.

If we were discussing the rapture, OSAS, 4pt Calvinism, OEC vs YEC you would be correct with Mark 12:29-31 and we should all find peace / common ground on 1 Cor 2:2.

But, in the case of false science vs scripture where insinuations made....mock the cross, all scripture and suggest God is evil....we need to apply these scriptures: Rom 16:17-18, Matt 7:15, 1 John 4:1, 2 John 1:10-11, John 7:24, Col 2:8, 2 Tim 4:3-4, 2 Pet 2:1-22, John 8:44, Psalm 26:4-5, Psalm 28:3

1 Tim 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.
1 Cor 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

Sure, many false teachers today teach others with no intention of harming them. This innocence dies however if they continue, after being presented with scripture teaching otherwise.

 

[River Jordan]

What in the universe are you doing on a Christian site / being part of the Christian faith.... if you believe God is evil (natural selection is evil, just ask the individual being eaten ;)), intelligence is not = accountability (therefore babies and mentally handicapped may go to hell = God is evil again h34r:)...and the devil is not on earth...when so many scriptures ....not just OT place him there.

Has it ever occurred to you that everything you just said about what I believe is wrong?

No, you believe inspired = myth. Humungous difference. You don't accept any scripture that doesn't match your personal belief. Why the dishonesty in your statement? When you are presented with scripture....you need to deal with it....Unless you think it is fine to serve a God that would lie to us...again, be evil. See how many ''evil'' insinuations of God your belief results in?

Again, everything you just said about what I believe is wrong. That alone is a good indication that you've not listened to a single thing I've posted and are just here to yell at me. IOW, you are exactly like the crazy guy on the street corner....yelling "You're all evil" at everyone and not listening to a single thing.

I certainly wish you would continue this line of thought. Satan will do anything to stumble us /make us look stupid, correct! even use scripture against us! Now...how did Jesus speak to satan when he did this with Him? Did he say science says X and Y, therefore I won't jump? Or did He say, it is '''also'' written X and Y.

I wasn't aware Jesus and Satan were having a debate about science.

Though....when you say science = mankind coming from apes...the devil will keep quiet too... I gaurantee it :).

There ya' go....why would anyone in their right mind waste time trying to explain evolutionary biology to someone who says the above?

Now, why in the universe would I study something that logic and pre-school math debunks? Did you not grasp the math? I see your immense reluctance to bring actual numbers to the table. If you only would....

There ya' go....why would you bother to study anything, even the very things you're asking me to explain to you? Indeed....why would you do such a thing?

Well, I would expect someone interested in biology to at least attempt it. I am interested in your explanations including ''the TE beliefs of 1. Set in motion by God and 2. guided by God''....which you exclude.... :blink: ....

Oh, there are lots of books and such written by people like me, so it's not only been attempted, it's been done. But I don't think they had angry fundamentalists like you in mind when they wrote them.

But, I proposed to select some for you. You don't need to give detailed explanations. Short and sweet would suffice.

For what purpose? You've already declared that you have absolutely no interest in studying anything and that pretty much anything I have to say on those subjects amounts to urinating on scripture.

So why in the world would someone like me try and explain anything related to science to a person like you? I might as well spend my time trying to explain to a fundamentalist Muslim why I don't wear a burqa.

I know that people disagree on interpretations of the Bible, but to call us Trolls is a little insensitive, and I would like to ask if you would not insult people.

Meh....it's all they have.

Why must there be so much dislike between fundamentalists and progressives? God doesn't like infighting between His children, I don't think your interpretation is completely accurate but I would never try to insult you. Have I lost my temper here? Absolutely, but I have always tried to go back and apologize. Maybe you would have apologized later I don't know, but can we not discuss things calmly and without attacking each other?

And that's a key difference. I understand that the fundamentalists have different interpretations of scripture than I do, and I'm totally fine with that. We're all still brothers and sisters in Christ.

But the fundamentalists cannot abide Christians like you and me. They have absolutely no tolerance for us and obviously get extremely angry when we express ourselves. How many times have I been told here that I should be made to sit down and shut up? That's what happens when you couple black/white thinking with authoritarianism.

Again, I suggest you read up on the psychology of fundamentalism. It helps make sense of many of these types of interactions.

As far as #12, it depends on what you mean by "a devil on earth".

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Yes, there is a "psychology" to fundies (remember that insult, wonder who said it). However, there is not a "psychology" to whatever it is River and SNR (all caps just because) are.

This is the very definition of intolerance, to suggest there is something wrong with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Here is where you say, "where did I say there was something wrong with fundies?"

Which would reveal a condescending attitude that suggests fundies are cartoon caricatures of real Christians who only need to be studied like poor little shoeless Appalachian kids.

This is why I suggested you be quiet for a season and learn some wisdom. Get out of the lab, believe me the goats beard is going nowhere. Really nowhere. In fact, in a million years, it will still be a goats beard.

 

[aspen]

CJ - the difference between 'fundies' and River and SNR is exclusion. KingJ and others are suggesting that nonliteralists are not Christian. I do not see Jordan or SNR equating Christianity wirh their POV

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Aspen,

Re-read my post. You will find the thesis correct. Ignore the sarcasm. The point is valid.

 

[KingJ]

CJ - the difference between 'fundies' and River and SNR is exclusion. KingJ and others are suggesting that nonliteralists are not Christian. I do not see Jordan or SNR equating Christianity wirh their POV

Aspen, there are degrees of non-literalists. I have tried to pin River, for all to see (including herself) just how non literal she is...to help!

River never grasped / evaded my point on us respecting scripture like a wedding ring. In anticipation of our Groom arriving, you think He will be impressed by those who have knowingly taught contrary to scripture / His word? What would your wife think if you took your wedding ring off at a work function?

River and you to a degree need to both be aware of 2 Pet 2:21. Now that she knows better, she is accountable for what she has learnt from us, despite her obfuscating stupidity.

Has it ever occurred to you that everything you just said about what I believe is wrong?

I am trying to help you see that your belief is evil. 1+1 = 2 not 7. You may believe 7 (good God), but your belief does not add up to that. You are running from me trying to help you.

Again, everything you just said about what I believe is wrong. That alone is a good indication that you've not listened to a single thing I've posted and are just here to yell at me. IOW, you are exactly like the crazy guy on the street corner....yelling "You're all evil" at everyone and not listening to a single thing.

River, I know how you feel. When we are in error and someone corrects us from scripture we feel 'bible punched'. But, as a fellow Christian you must not feel 'punched' if scripture is used.

There ya' go....why would anyone in their right mind waste time trying to explain evolutionary biology to someone who says the above?

So now you don't believe we come from apes? Why make discussion circular? Just keep to your stories please.

There ya' go....why would you bother to study anything, even the very things you're asking me to explain to you? Indeed....why would you do such a thing?

I want you to see for yourself that there is no sane explanation. You are right, I would never waste my time studying man made fairytales over God's word.

Oh, there are lots of books and such written by people like me, so it's not only been attempted, it's been done. But I don't think they had angry fundamentalists like you in mind when they wrote them.

Edit the underlined to ...either they don't know scripture / don't care about scripture / are false teachers / not as non literal as you.

Soon we will continue our discussion on the Catholic churches acceptance of evolution. I will prove to you that their infallible dogma on creation is placing limiting factors on acceptance of modern evolution / latest insinuations being made.

You have used 'others' on more then one occasion as an excuse for your rejection of scripture. You will stand alone before God one-day RIver. Other books agreeing with you will not excuse you. We ALL have to DEAL with scripture! You can't tell God you were not a fundamentalist. He will ask you how you interpreted 'He made us beneath the angels' and preached / stumbled many by teaching that = we are not far from apes with no accountability / God is evil / scripture is modern man's dogma....whilst clearly gifted by Him with an IQ above 10.

For what purpose? You've already declared that you have absolutely no interest in studying anything and that pretty much anything I have to say on those subjects amounts to urinating on scripture.

Studying anything? No, River, I have told you that I love Jesus and hence love studying His word. Now I would expect those who call themselves Christians to do likewise.

So why in the world would someone like me try and explain anything related to science to a person like you? I might as well spend my time trying to explain to a fundamentalist Muslim why I don't wear a burqa.

Well, I wish I could wake up and see a discussion between you and I on a head covering. You do need to explain things to me. I am your brother in Christ, you supposed to care about me. I am telling you that evolution kills scripture. I have given you the reasons of why. You just run away from helping or being helped.

 

[snr5557]

KingJ, I am sorry but you have to be the most mean person I have ever "talked" to, and the worst part is you are under the impression that you are being nice.

You have an idealistic view of how nature works which is making you unable to be objective in learning something you don't understand.

Just say you don't accept evolution and move on, it's okay.

River has been trying to explain for weeks, but you have shown repeatedly that you mentally can't handle this information. I think that you should just avoid threads like this.You just get upset and rant, which makes your posts mean, and then River tries to explain, but then you just get more upset and rant etc. It's just a big cycle of you getting upset and ranting, which is probably why River doesn't want to continue. There is no point.

Let's just move on from this.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ, I am sorry but you have to be the most mean person I have ever "talked" to, and the worst part is you are under the impression that you are being nice.

You have an idealistic view of how nature works which is making you unable to be objective in learning something you don't understand.

Just say you don't accept evolution and move on, it's okay.

River has been trying to explain for weeks, but you have shown repeatedly that you mentally can't handle this information. I think that you should just avoid threads like this.You just get upset and rant, which makes your posts mean, and then River tries to explain, but then you just get more upset and rant etc. It's just a big cycle of you getting upset and ranting, which is probably why River doesn't want to continue. There is no point.

Let's just move on from this.

Funny you read my posts like that. I see Rivers posts as insulting / pointless ranting / debacle. Just look at post # 110. Why the bias?

I deal with family members who believe as you both do on a daily basis. With time, the cesspool of brainswashed tripe is dealt with.

Teaching evolution as fact is doing damage to young / naive Christians.

I am sincere and honest. I am open to being proven wrong from facts / science / scripture. If you and River cannot do so, remove yourselves from a Christian site or this discussion. Suggesting science = evolution and scripture must play catch up / be edited is being a mouthpiece for the devil. To be tolerated only as long as naivity of scripture remians.

I have clearly given reasons / facts for its non compliance with scripture. Any person with a morsel of respect for scripture will acknowledge them.

So, yes, I will come off harsh, but I would expect the same from any brethren that loved and cared about me and others Prov 27:6.

Let's just move on from this.

Convince me I am wrong in post # 189 here (http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19812-leaving-creationism-leaving-christianity/page-7) and I will gladly move on.

Evolution kills Christianity. Anyone with matter between ears knows this. Now Christianity is a very spiritual belief. One where comfirmation of it being truth is made by God Himself 1 Cor 12:3. So forgive me for not being eager / calm on transitions toward urinating on Him and His word.

 

[River Jordan]

KingJ,

I think you captured the heart of the problem very well when you stated...

"I am telling you that evolution kills scripture. I have given you the reasons of why. You just run away from helping or being helped."

That's what every interaction between you and I revolves around. You believe evolution and Christianity are 100% incompatible, that your belief is 100% right, and your role here is to correct any Christian who believes otherwise.

OTOH, I believe evolution and Christianity are compatible, recognize that that's my personal belief, and am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or their approach to scripture. My primary aim here is to try and convince some Christians to be more careful in the things they say about science.

IMO, those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum, and while dialog between us is possible, it's only if you are willing to stop yelling and insulting me and are willing to discuss this subject calmly and rationally. If can't do that, then there's no point in continuing.

Yes, there is a "psychology" to fundies (remember that insult, wonder who said it). However, there is not a "psychology" to whatever it is River and SNR (all caps just because) are.

This is the very definition of intolerance, to suggest there is something wrong with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Here is where you say, "where did I say there was something wrong with fundies?"

Which would reveal a condescending attitude that suggests fundies are cartoon caricatures of real Christians who only need to be studied like poor little shoeless Appalachian kids.

Not at all. Every one of us has our own psychological traits and tendencies. I think it's always helpful to be aware of them.

This is why I suggested you be quiet for a season and learn some wisdom. Get out of the lab, believe me the goats beard is going nowhere. Really nowhere. In fact, in a million years, it will still be a goats beard.

So explain to me why I should take advice on science from you?

 

[Fred Lamm]

Evolution is not a fact. There is not one single example of a change in kind. A bird may develop a larger or smoller beak, but it is still a bird. There is not one missing link, but millions of them. Out of the countless number of fossils that have been found, there is not a single transitional animal found, and if any kind of evolution were true there should be millions of them. Every species appears all at once and fully developed.

Have a Blessed Day,
Fred Lamm

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

River,

We all have our traits. Would you go the next step and admit that we are all flawed? If we are flawed, did we make it so? Or, did God just let it happen?

We need scripture as a fixed point by which to judge the attributes of our relationship with God aside from our fallen nature.

When you diminish the authority of scripture you remove that point by which God gives us guidance. The Spirit of Christ which dwells in us does so because of scripture and always works in agreement with such.

You should not take scientific advice from me. You don't even have to read anything I have to say. However, just expect a response if one is needed.
Fred,

River and her minions do not feel there is any scientific basis in what you have described as viable problems with Darwinian evolution.

I will not speak for her as you will find she is quite capable of responding herself. Be prepared.

 

[River Jordan]

Evolution is not a fact.

Then what is this?

Convergent Evolution of Hyperswimming

There is not one single example of a change in kind. A bird may develop a larger or smoller beak, but it is still a bird.

What is a "kind"?

There is not one missing link, but millions of them. Out of the countless number of fossils that have been found, there is not a single transitional animal found, and if any kind of evolution were true there should be millions of them. Every species appears all at once and fully developed.

How do you know what is or isn't in the fossil record? Where specifically have you looked?

We all have our traits. Would you go the next step and admit that we are all flawed? If we are flawed, did we make it so? Or, did God just let it happen?

Of course we're all flawed. And your other question gets to the broader metaphysical issue of, does anything happen outside of God's will?

We need scripture as a fixed point by which to judge the attributes of our relationship with God aside from our fallen nature.

When you diminish the authority of scripture you remove that point by which God gives us guidance. The Spirit of Christ which dwells in us does so because of scripture and always works in agreement with such.

But the sense here is that "the authority of scripture" hinges on "a fundamentalist interpretation of scripture", thus any deviation from fundamentalism = taking away scriptural authority.

You should not take scientific advice from me. You don't even have to read anything I have to say. However, just expect a response if one is needed.

So on what basis do you say things like, "believe me the goats beard is going nowhere. Really nowhere. In fact, in a million years, it will still be a goats beard."?

Why should I believe you, as you claimed?

River and her minions do not feel there is any scientific basis in what you have described as viable problems with Darwinian evolution.

Because there aren't. What I'm curious to know is, why do people like you and Fred make such authoritative statements about science, if you've never really studied it?