As one dies so dies the other

[VictoryinJesus]

You still have not explained Apostle Paul's meaning of that 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse.

you want me to give my input on “all” But you know if I do …either way it will open a flood gate of arguing the “all”…either way once I’d give an opinion, it would be wrong.
You asked:

Did Paul mean that as in Adam all die, then all also will be made alive through Christ, excluding the wicked and unbeliever?

or...

Did Paul mean that as in Adam all die, then all also will be made alive through Christ, including... the wicked and unbeliever?

curious do you think “all” will be resurrected to stand before Him?

1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The main thing that caught my attention in Ecclesiastes 3 was “preeminence”
the fate of the sons of men and the fate of the beasts is the same.

all have the same breath and there is no advantage (preeminence) for man over beasts, for all is vanity.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 stands out to me with Ecclesiastes because 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 talks about His preeminence.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [27] For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. [28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

what does the “all” things shall be put under Him mean? Some? Part? Even death will be destroyed being made subject to Him?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Beasts without advantage! Men without advantage! Who among us admits to having been or still being a beast?

“Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight?” Job 18:3

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” Rev 13:14-18

“So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.” Psalm 73:22

"So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter." Ecc 4:1

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city," Prov 9:1-3

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:16

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Revisiting your post because of the direction the thread has taken. it may all hinge on how we define “beasts”. I’m so quick to assume everyone’s definition is the same, when it’s not. so I’m trying to look at it from the perspective of “beasts” as literal animals …then it might not say much concerning: so that man has no preeminence (advantage) above a beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19
But there is another perspective (Imo), as you pointed out. I’ve always wonder what beast Paul fought with at Ephesus …where Paul points out…what advantage it me, if the dead rise not? 1 Corinthians 15:31-32

 

[amadeus]

Revisiting your post because of the direction the thread has taken. it may all hinge on how we define “beasts”. I’m so quick to assume everyone’s definition is the same, when it’s not. so I’m trying to look at it from the perspective of “beasts” as literal animals …then it might not say much concerning: so that man has no preeminence (advantage) above a beast. Ecclesiastes 3:19
But there is another perspective (Imo), as you pointed out. I’ve always wonder what beast Paul fought with at Ephesus …where Paul points out…what advantage it me, if the dead rise not? 1 Corinthians 15:31-32

How does an unclean beast become a clean beast? How does a clean beast become a man? Unclean and clean beasts were "saved" in the ark built by Noah... but wisdom kills her beasts [Prov 9:1-2], but if we were only beasts, what would be left if our beasts died? What would be left if a "new man" [no beast or beastly nature] were born and as directed by the Holy Spirit killed those beastly parts/elements/the old man?

 

[Davy]

you want me to give my input on “all” But you know if I do …either way it will open a flood gate of arguing the “all”…either way once I’d give an opinion, it would be wrong.

Don't make this into some personal thing, that's a waste of time.

Think about what I asked concerning the verse, because Paul didn't explain which way to interpret it at 'that' particular 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse. But he did explain which way he meant it in other verses.

You asked:

curious do you think “all” will be resurrected to stand before Him?

The main thing that caught my attention in Ecclesiastes 3 was “preeminence”
the fate of the sons of men and the fate of the beasts is the same.

all have the same breath and there is no advantage (preeminence) for man over beasts, for all is vanity.

Well, with the idea of the resurrection, it's not the same with beasts and mankind. The comparison Solomon is making in Ecclesiastes is about the idea of flesh death that is common to both beasts and mankind, not the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 stands out to me with Ecclesiastes because 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 talks about His preeminence.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [27] For he has put all things under his feet. But when he says all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. [28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

what does the “all” things shall be put under Him mean? Some? Part? Even death will be destroyed being made subject to Him?

Preeminence in 'what' sense, that Lord Jesus is God and KING of kings and LORD of lords? He is, but is that what Paul is actually showing there? Looks to me that Paul is revealing The Father being eminent over... Lord Jesus in final, per that 1 Corinthians 15:28 verse.

But that's still not the subject of my question about 1 Corinthians 15:22 though, is it? The subject changes at the 1 Corinthians 15:23 verse. Verse 22 is about the resurrection and who all it will involve. Verse 23 starts talking about order, pointing more towards the idea of Christ's future reign over the wicked.

The 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 verses is a declaration of the order from the time of Christ's resurrection all the way to the end of His future Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign. Christ's resurrection represents the 'firstfruits' and then with those who also were raised on the day of His resurrection, and with those spirits in prison He preached The Gospel to at His resurrection. Then next are those of His saints gathered at His future 2nd coming. But notice Paul didn't specifically mention Christ's future "thousand years" reign there 'directly'. Paul did hint to it indirectly though...

1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
KJV

Jesus is Who will be in that reign, not The Father. And who does that say Lord Jesus will reign over there? His "enemies".

Thus by that, we are to realize that means Christ's enemies MUST still be there after His future coming when He starts that reign over them, because Jesus certainly is NOT... reigning over His enemies today of this present world.

(There are deceivers that 'try'... to make us believe Jesus is now reigning over all peoples on earth today, but those attempt to lie like Hilter, because Hitler believed if you told a lie often enough people would begin to believe it. World Communism uses that same strategy too.)

So Apostle Paul by that was actually pointing directly... to Revelation 20 and Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved nations. And that is also how we come to understand the next 26-28 verses, which points to the end of His future reign when death (and the devil), the wicked, and hell will be destroyed in the future "lake of fire", and then Jesus will deliver up the Kingdom to The Father.

But still, that's not the subject of the 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse where Paul stated that as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The answer to my original question is that literally, 'all'... will be made alive in Jesus Christ after His 2nd coming, including the wicked dead.

That is why it's so important to not skip over the following which Lord Jesus declared that will happen on the day of His future return...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Jesus showed above that BOTH resurrection types happen on the day of His 2nd coming.

So HOW is it that some think the unsaved "dead" of Revelation 20:5 are still literally 'asleep' in the ground for the "thousand years" of Christ's reign?

That... is why I try very hard to get brethren to understand about the "dead" of Revelation 20:5, because those are not about dead asleep in the ground waiting out the "thousand years" and are raised at the end of it. Those are about the SPIRITUALLY DEAD, meaning their SOULS are still in a liable to perish condition at the "second death".

On the "last trump" that Paul covers later in 1 Corinthians 15, EVERYONE still alive on earth is going to be changed to the "spiritual body", the unsaved also. The world to come at Jesus' coming is going to end this 'flesh' world time. The flesh is for THIS PRESENT WORLD, not the world to come.

Apostle Paul actually showed this in the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Scripture, but it is seldom translated directly from the Greek into English. It is pointing to the same spiritually dead idea for the wicked that Lord Jesus showed by analogy, i.e., like how He said the scribes and Pharisees were like whited tombs which appear white and clean on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones (Matthew 23:27). He was pointing to how an individual's soul is mortal and subject to death by not... being 'born again' through Christ Jesus. That is what Paul was pointing to with "this mortal" must put on "immortality" (i.e., His promise of being born again by The Spirit, and at His coming our soul being made immortal and can never die). The wicked dead ("resurrection of damnation") will raised at Christ's 2nd coming also, and they will stand in judgment throughout the "thousand years", their mortal soul still being in a liable to perish condition at the "second death". So their bodies of corruption (flesh) will be made into the body of incorruption too, but their souls will still... be mortal, and liable to die.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Think about what I asked concerning the verse, because Paul didn't explain which way to interpret it at 'that' particular 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse. But he did explain which way he meant it in other verses.

Well, with the idea of the resurrection, it's not the same with beasts and mankind. The comparison Solomon is making in Ecclesiastes is about the idea of flesh death that is common to both beasts and mankind, not the resurrection.

But that's still not the subject of my question about 1 Corinthians 15:22 though, is it?

I’ve still been considering 1 Corinthians 15:22
as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. In relation to: as one dies, so does the other. You asked what does the “all” mean there in 1 Corinthians 15:22 mean (Imo). One passage that came to mind last night was Romans 14: 7-9.

concerning:
As one dies, so does the other. (From Ecclesiastes) and
As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive. Romans 14 helps “not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for if we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord. …

whether we live
Or die
We are the Lords.

for this end (the end of strife?)
Christ died
And lived again
That He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

for it is written
As I live says the Lord
Every man shall made Alive? (Paraphrasing) that in everything…whether we live, or die. Every tongue shall confess to God. For we all must stand before God and give an account of himself before Him.
Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nought your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[Davy]

I’ve still been considering 1 Corinthians 15:22
as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. In relation to: as one dies, so does the other. You asked what does the “all” mean there. One passage that came to mind last night was Romans 14: 7-9.

I realize it's very easy to think Paul was pointing only to those in Christ with that 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse, but the fact that Jesus in John 5:28-29 declared the "resurrection of damnation" will occur also on the day of His future coming shows this being made alive in Christ is meant for the wicked dead also. But it's only in the sense of the body of incorruption, and not for their mortal souls still subject to the "second death".

Paul is actually covering this point later in the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Scripture, but one must go into the Greek there to know Paul was pointing to 2 required changes in order to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus. The wicked will go through only the 1st change at Christ's return, which is about their body of corruption putting on the body of incorruption (i.e., their resurrection). Their mortal souls will still be in a liable to perish condition at the "second death". Those in Christ won't be subject to that, as their mortal souls will have put on immortality in Jesus Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

concerning:
As one dies, so does the other. (From Ecclesiastes) and
As in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Revisiting in relation to Romans. I’m not claiming “as one dies, so does the other. —is for sure connected to “as in Adam all dies, so in Christ all shall be made alive.” But in studying that passage in Ecclesiastes about man and beast having one breath and both return to their dust. To me it is hopeful in relation to: although our outward man perishes, the inward man is renewed day to day by God’s Breath, His Spirit, renewing the face of the ground (the heart|mind). To me it is hopeful that though our outward man perishes, the inward man is being restored. To me, there is a connection I feel to whether we live, or die …in all things, all confess unto God.


Romans 14 (paraphrasing what it says me and how it helps; wrong or right):

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, [but not for the purpose of] passing judgment on his opinions.

One has faith that he may eat all things,
One eats only vegetables.

the one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who doesn’t eat.

the one who doesn’t eat is not to judge the one who eats. for God has accepted him.

Who are you to judge the servant of another?

the one regards one day above another.
The one regards every day alike.

let every one (every tongue confess unto God) —whether he gives thanks, or whether he does not give thanks —let every man be convinced in their own mind.

the one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord. And who eats does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God.

the one who eats not, for the Lord, he doesn’t eat—-and gives thanks to God.

For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself.

for if we live for the Lord,
Or if we die, we die for the Lord.
Therefore,
Whether we live
Or die
We are the Lord’s.

For this end
Christ Died
And Lived again (that all shall bow and confess, that every tongue shall confess) that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living, each in his own order. (From Ecclesiastes: that there is a time and season for every event under heaven. A time to tear down, and a time to Build.)

why do you regard your brother with contempt?

won’t we all stand before the judgement seat of God?

for it is written
As I Live says the Lord

 

[VictoryinJesus]

realize it's very easy to think Paul was pointing only to those in Christ with that 1 Corinthians 15:22 verse

I don’t think it is only pointing to Christian’s sitting in a church building. That isn’t what I’m attempting to suggest. But instead how God works in every individuals life. EVery individual. Point is we want to exclude some from the resurrection …but that isn’t what I’m hinting at. I’m just studying. I told my husband this morning…doctors feed me pills to help with depression. But every morning God also feeds me with Hope. I’m grateful because He helps more than the pills…it may be just one small verse that reminds me of who He is.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That... is why I try very hard to get brethren to understand about the "dead" of Revelation 20:5, because those are not about dead asleep in the ground waiting out the "thousand years" and are raised at the end of it. Those are about the SPIRITUALLY DEAD, meaning their SOULS are still in a liable to perish condition at the "second death".

If understood you correctly “dead asleep in the ground” … I’d agree with what you shared. What ground do the “dead sleep in”? …Imo the heart. Job 17:13-16 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. [14] I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. [15] And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? [16] They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Which to me helps with the parable of the wheat and the tares being sown while men slept. But when is the awakening out of the dust, awakened up out of the ground …how do tares and wheat appear together?