Athens or Jerusalem or Neither?

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Wrangler

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Philosophy can either be totally boring or totally interesting.
Forks and spoons are not about entertainment but utility. The same with Athens or Jerusalem, philosophy or theology.

Philosophy represents the height of human achievement. One way to know this is the highest level of education references this fact. Using the language of French, where the object and subjects are reversed, one receives a PhD, Philosophy de Doctorate or Doctorate of Philosophy.

Of course, it is the application of philosophy that separates human progress being chaotic and random. Method. It's all about the method of problem solving. What are the human problems of living in terms of material, energy, security and health? These problems are addressed via philosophical method. This is Athens.

Jerusalem is code for theology. It is about our ultimate fate through which our relationship with our Creator and the created determines. Saying the dividing line between the 2 is life compared to the after-life is a bit too simple but most concise. Another paradigm is philosophy is about WHAT and theology is about HOW.

Hope this helps.
 

Wrangler

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He has taught me many things, one being to think for oneself and to challenge anything and everything

Do you work? Keep a job longer than a month?

I asked a question. The considerable response would be an answer to prompt a conversation.

Entitled to privacy, @bluedragon.

OK,

Having hired and fired numerous people over time. It's with careful consideration that I suggest that phrase be limited in scope and use.

When you reach my level of management and capability ....only those of us at that level can challenge and question everything. In other words, my time spent in Board Rooms was not emptying trash cans. I have a lot of wisdom, experience and thought to offer. I accept your request for privacy. Well positioned. I apologize if I offended in any way.
Telling exchange.

I suppose MatthewG was referring to intellectual inquiry when he wrote 'challenge anything and everything' rather than a practical way to live moment to moment.
 

M3n0r4h

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Forks and spoons are not about entertainment but utility. The same with Athens or Jerusalem, philosophy or theology.

Philosophy represents the height of human achievement. One way to know this is the highest level of education references this fact. Using the language of French, where the object and subjects are reversed, one receives a PhD, Philosophy de Doctorate or Doctorate of Philosophy.

Of course, it is the application of philosophy that separates human progress being chaotic and random. Method. It's all about the method of problem solving. What are the human problems of living in terms of material, energy, security and health? These problems are addressed via philosophical method. This is Athens.

Jerusalem is code for theology. It is about our ultimate fate through which our relationship with our Creator and the created determines. Saying the dividing line between the 2 is life compared to the after-life is a bit too simple but most concise. Another paradigm is philosophy is about WHAT and theology is about HOW.

Hope this helps.
At the end, I believe that this was the point to which Shawn was alluding. One doesn't come out of a cult without applying logic. Since we both were in a religion that presented itself as the only true Christian religion on the face of the planet, one had to compare the claims of that religion to reliable scripture and then go to God in prayer and ask Him for guidance. One might even say that a person may be delivered from a life of overt sin more easily than it is to be delivered from a life in a false religion, especially when a person in said religion notices the blatant hypocrisy on display in so many of the alleged protestant denominations. I wasn't blatantly sinning as a Mormon, quite the contrary, my lifestyle was geared to living for God. The problem was that I had to realize that I was following a false gospel in a religion led by false prophets. Certainly Grace was the preeminent factor in the process, but additionally, common logic had to be applied. I left Mormonism because of their theology and demonic temple ordinances, and that process took both Grace and logic. I have no capability to analyze what percentage was Grace versus what percentage was logic, all I know is I'm glad that God led me out of a false gospel and towards real Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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Jim B

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Jerusalem.

“If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. May my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not exalt Jerusalem as my greatest joy.”

(Psalm 137:5-6, HCSB)
Psalm 137:1-6

By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.

This was written during the time of the Jews' captivity in Babylon. It is a lament for their homeland. While it is beautiful, mournful poetry, it has no bearing on today's people, Jews or otherwise.

Our greatest joy should be in Jesus Christ, who redeemed us from slavery to sin.
 

M3n0r4h

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Could you be more specific of these demonic temple ordinances?

Mormon Temple Endowment - 1931 Version

The above site gave a security error, but it has more of the information that you were seeking. Try not to yak if you decide to read the whole endowment. When I went to the temple in 1976, the endowment was similar to what this site presents, but was somewhat more subdued than the 1931 endowment cited. Excerpts from the 1931 endowment:
...

“ …you will not forget that the utmost secrecy is to be observed with respect to these proceedings. They are not to be even spoken of to each other."

The left arm is here placed at the square, palm to the front, the right
hand and arm raised to the neck, holding the palm downwards and thumb
under the right ear.

Adam--"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal
any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood,
with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree
that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by
their roots."


Adam--"All bow your heads and say Yes."

As the last words are spoken the right hand is drawn swiftly across the
throat and the hands dropped from the square to the sides.
...

“ … receive the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood."

"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal
the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood,
with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so,
we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn
from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of
the field."


"All bow your heads and say yes."

The Sign is made by placing the left arm on the square at the level of
the shoulder, placing the right hand across the chest with the thumb
extended and then drawing it rapidly from left to right and dropping it
to the side.

‘’’

" ... receive the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood."

The Sign is made by bringing both hands to the square, palms to the
front.

Peter--"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not
reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek
Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do
so, we agree that our bodies be cut asunder in the midst and all our
bowels gush out."


Peter--"All bow your heads and say yes."

As the last words are spoken the hands are dropped till the thumbs are
in the center of the stomach and drawn swiftly across the stomach to the
hips, and then dropped to the sides.


While the endowment was slightly less graphic in 1976, all three penalties were acted out in a similar manner. All three signs,tokens, and penalties were borrowed from the first three levels of "blue lodge" freemasonry termed Entered Apprentice; Fellow Craft, and Master Mason almost exactly as they appear in Duncan’s Monitor a manual of Freemasonry from the 1800s, which I found online.

Too much?
 

M3n0r4h

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Wrangler

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If you want a very different perspective on this, let me know.
Yes, I sure do. My impressions were always very, VERY positive about Mormons. Surprised certain denominations here are especially critiqued. Don't hear much bad about Nestorianism, for instance, by comparison.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Yes, I sure do. My impressions were always very, VERY positive about Mormons. Surprised certain denominations here are especially critiqued. Don't hear much bad about Nestorianism, for instance, by comparison.
Starting big picture and then working more specific: LDS Christians believe in making commitments. I made a commitment to my husband when I married him. I made a commitment to God at my baptism, taking His name upon myself and promising to try to follow Him. Commitments don't create a relationship, but they do help strengthen them. The first formal/ritualistic commitment I made with God was my baptism and later ones at the temple.

There's nothing "demonic" about stating my love of Christ and desire to follow Him, either with spontaneous words or scripted ones. For scripted rituals, the script/methods have evolved over time -- like majority of the time is spent with other folks re-teaching / re-acting the Creation and Fall story. In the 1800's this all had to be done with live actors every single time. Nowadays we instead just watch it on a movie with subtitles for deaf folks, tons of different language tracks, etc. The purpose stays the same, but methods evolve. Some non-LDS folks love to take things completely out of context and try to dress it up for a cheap horror plot with "Jaws" style music in the background.
 
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Wrangler

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Try not to yak if you decide to read the whole endowment. When I went to the temple in 1976, the endowment was similar to what this site presents, but was somewhat more subdued than the 1931 endowment cited. Excerpts from the 1931 endowment:
...

“ …you will not forget that the utmost secrecy is to be observed with respect to these proceedings. They are not to be even spoken of to each other."
Secrecy is not demonic.
There's nothing "demonic" about stating my love of Christ and desire to follow Him, either with spontaneous words or scripted ones.

Hmmm. Jane, the evidence of the penalties are not quite 'stating love of Christ' are they? Disembowlment and dismemberment is not in Scripture. How do you defend that or do you deny these endowment penalties accurately reflect what LDS ceremonies involve?

While the endowment was slightly less graphic in 1976, all three penalties were acted out in a similar manner. All three signs,tokens, and penalties were borrowed from the first three levels of "blue lodge" freemasonry termed Entered Apprentice; Fellow Craft, and Master Mason almost exactly as they appear in Duncan’s Monitor a manual of Freemasonry from the 1800s, which I found online.
There is nothing wrong with adopting ceremonial details from the Free Masons. If such relationship is intended to prove the LDS are demonic, you have not made your case. Implied is that Free Masons, merely for being secretive, are demonic.

Proving that is a bit of a detour to what this thread is about.

Moreover, the key phrase is ACTED OUT. Do you have evidence that LDS have actually been disembowled for dismembered for not keeping their commitments following these ceremonies? Otherwise, it seems the words are meant symbolically, akin to 'we will die if not for our relationship to Christ.' Do you fear being disembowled for dismembered from the LDS church now that you left it?

Too much?
Not nearly enough. I believe you said you are a former member of LDS. So, your probably more critical than others.
 

M3n0r4h

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Secrecy is not demonic.


Hmmm. Jane, the evidence of the penalties are not quite 'stating love of Christ' are they? Disembowlment and dismemberment is not in Scripture. How do you defend that or do you deny these endowment penalties accurately reflect what LDS ceremonies involve?


There is nothing wrong with adopting ceremonial details from the Free Masons. If such relationship is intended to prove the LDS are demonic, you have not made your case. Implied is that Free Masons, merely for being secretive, are demonic.

Proving that is a bit of a detour to what this thread is about.

Moreover, the key phrase is ACTED OUT. Do you have evidence that LDS have actually been disembowled for dismembered for not keeping their commitments following these ceremonies? Otherwise, it seems the words are meant symbolically, akin to 'we will die if not for our relationship to Christ.' Do you fear being disembowled for dismembered from the LDS church now that you left it?


Not nearly enough. I believe you said you are a former member of LDS. So, your probably more critical than others.
I suppose that you just had to be there and have participated in person. If I am not my own, and I am bought with a price, the Blood of Jesus shed upon the cross, then those death oaths are an afront to His sacrifice. If one takes the time to read through the whole endowment ceremony, I'm sure that they will find numerous other issues that don't line up with scripture, not even mormon scripture. The reason the ceremony had to be kept secret is because Joseph Smith had been a Mason, and if Masons found out that their rites were being perverted by mormons, well, there is history that the Masons did disappear people over that issue. Some believe that Masons were involved in the murder of Joseph in Carthage IL, so back in the day, some did treat the issue of revealing Masonic secrecy as a death offence.
I had a few veiled threats after I left the cult. One in particular happened while I was living in AZ. I was asked to come into a ward for a private meeting with a member of the bishopric (three men who officiate over each ward), which I attended because my wife and four children attended there. The children went to an evangelical church with me every other Sunday. A one point in the meeting, things got a little heated after they implied that they wanted to go over a tithing settlement with me. At that point I told the rep that I no longer supported the cult, and I supported the congregation that I attended back then. I guess that the word cult upset the fellow and then he proceeded to tell me that by the power of his holy melchezidek priesthood that he took authority over my judgment at the last day, to which I answered that he would be nobody's judge, but would be judged just like everyone else. I guess that didn't go over too well, so later they called my wife in to tell her that if she ever needed any help, that they had people that were willing to be of service. Since our marriage was and still is rock solid, their attempt to drive a wedge into our affairs failed. Have I ever been threatened about those oaths? The short answer is that one guy made a veiled threat regarding the oaths that I had taken in the temple and was speaking openly about. Nothing to fear, but I did find it to be quite comical.
Let me know when you want to know about mormon theology, and I'll start a thread about that and their quest to be exalted to godhood, the equivalent to the level of my/our heavenly Father, because the mormon temple endowment is a mandatory prerequisite, along with a temple marriage, for a mormon to be exalted to godhood. It's all a very Gnostic concept
 

Jane_Doe22

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Secrecy is not demonic.
Bingo. And even "secrecy" doesn't apply to temple rites- it's 2023, nothing is secret.

Hmmm. Jane, the evidence of the penalties are not quite 'stating love of Christ' are they? Disembowlment and dismemberment is not in Scripture. How do you defend that or do you deny these endowment penalties accurately reflect what LDS ceremonies involve?
...<Jane linking these two paragraphs>..
Moreover, the key phrase is ACTED OUT. Do you have evidence that LDS have actually been disembowled for dismembered for not keeping their commitments following these ceremonies? Otherwise, it seems the words are meant symbolically, akin to 'we will die if not for our relationship to Christ.' Do you fear being disembowled for dismembered from the LDS church now that you left it?
The symbolic penalties were completely removed in 1990. And yes, they were symbolic and showing convection to Christ's cause, akin to saying "cross my heart and hope to die". People weren't actually disembowled or dismembered or anything. That part of the script was removed in 1990 because at that point society had changed to not use that type of language anymore and those were a distraction rather than helping convey the intended meaning of "I'm really convicted to this".

The worse that happens to an LDS Christian for being major unrepentented sinner (talking like major legal crimes or extreme serial adultery with zero remorse) is excommunication. And even excommunication is pretty mild: you're still welcome at services, other people don't even know about this, no shunning or public shaming, and the entire goal is to get you to the point of wanting to repent & come back to Christ.

For a personal example: my favorite aunt is an ex-LDS Christian / ex-Christian. She's still my favorite aunt, love her to pieces, I jump at every opportunity to hang out (we live in different states), and I regularly call her for advice.

As to these supposed death threats: I've received several point-blank death threats and attacks on my marriage from "anti-cult" Christians. That doesn't mean much, other than that threatening human is a sinner with some major insecurities. We are all sinners.

Not nearly enough. I believe you said you are a former member of LDS. So, your probably more critical than others.
For what I can gather from his/her posts: they were briefly a member half a century ago (left in the 70's). Long time grudge and info is not very accurate.
 

Wrangler

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And yes, they were symbolic and showing convection to Christ's cause, akin to saying "cross my heart and hope to die".
That's how I see it.

My take on all this is some have an axe to grind about certain denominations. Not having any specific reason, they invent these nothing burgers and used big fonts and lots of exclamation points. They are so upset, the denomination must be in the wrong. Hmmm. Not necessarily.

Anyway, make a blessed day sister!
 
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M3n0r4h

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That's how I see it.

My take on all this is some have an axe to grind about certain denominations. Not having any specific reason, they invent these nothing burgers and used big fonts and lots of exclamation points. They are so upset, the denomination must be in the wrong. Hmmm. Not necessarily.
You asked, and I simply provided my take on my personal experience with mormonism. If you failed to see a specific reason fine, no harm, no foul. However if I employed the method of reasoning cited in some of the above posts, then I would have to disagree with the following admonition from Paul.

Galatians 1:6-9
English Standard Version

No Other Gospel​

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Mormonism is literally based upon another gospel being delivered to Joseph Smith by an angel. I find that to be uncanny. Believe what you want to believe. Have a great day. Cheers.
 

MatthewG

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Challenging everything and testing all things by the spirit is something that should be done by every christian. To challenge traditions and to seek for truth, to the best of ones abilities by seeking out God with the use of the bible.

Its not about intellectualism; its about faith and most certain the bible is for believers and not for non-believers.
 

Gottservant

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[...]

A video on ways of thinking, with mention of some philosophers, and ethics.

Should one think like the Greeks?
Should one think like the Jews?
Should one mix the two?
Should one divide against the other?
Should one think for themselves along with reasoning and logic?

Mindsets and impact, are what I consider relevant.

One shouldn't think to establish one mindset over another - the impact they all make will change throughout the Ages.
 

MatthewG

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Mindsets and impact, are what I consider relevant.

One shouldn't think to establish one mindset over another - the impact they all make will change throughout the Ages.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.