BAPTISM

[justbyfaith]

Finally - you single out the Catholic Church as being a visible organization in which NOT all are "saved".
This is true for all Protestant factions as well - NOT just the Catholic Church.

I try to make my comments relevant to the person that I am talking to.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BreadOfLife,

Did you know that you can know that you (right now) have everlasting life?


1Jo 5:13, These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife,

Did you know that you can know that you (right now) have everlasting life?

1Jo 5:13, These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

As a born again follower of Christ, I have a moral certitude that I have eternal life if I remain faithful (Matt. 24:13).
HOWEVER, because the Scriptures don't teach the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security - I can fall away by my own doing and be eternally lost.

The Scriptures give us MANY warnings of this . . .
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[H. Richard]

As for being "saved" - it is a process, not a one time, slam-dunk event. The Scriptures are clear about this fact.
Whereas, the Bible says that I am initially saved when I come to faith - it ALSO says that I am BEING saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14) and that I WILL BE saved (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

As for the word ""BEING"" it does not mean what you think it does. I am a being.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV This is a clear fact.

I do not believe that salvation is a process, as you do. In the above I see that it is accomplished by the Holy Spirit; not by the works of religions.

The words, WERE, indicates it was already accomplished by God.

Since you think it is progressive when do you feel you have done enough to be saved? And why do you think Jesus' shed blood does not pay for all your sins?

What I see is that you seem to think salvation is something you have to work for to make God owe you salvation and therefore salvation it is not a gift from God.

 

[Triumph1300]

Since you think it is progressive when do you feel you have done enough to be saved?

Awesome question.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree that we must continue in His goodness in order to remain saved...however, I would contend that there is a preservation by the Holy Spirit that takes place in the hearts of those who truly receive Jesus Christ, not only as Saviour, but as Lord:

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

re #63.

 

[H. Richard]

Awesome question.

I like your thing about the Mosquito I wish all would see that there truly is power in the shed blood of Jesus. Thanks for you input.

 

[Triumph1300]

Sure a lot of legalism on this thread.
Not much about God's grace.
Mostly "do this....do that" and if you don't.... you'r toast. ;-)

 

[justbyfaith]

Sure a lot of legalism on this thread.
Not much about God's grace.
Mostly "do this....do that" and if you don't.... you'r toast. ;-)

What posts are you referring to, specifically?

 

[BreadOfLife]

As for the word ""BEING"" it does not mean what you think it does. I am a being.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV This is a clear fact.

I do not believe that salvation is a process, as you do. In the above I see that it is accomplished by the Holy Spirit; not by the works of religions.

The words, WERE, indicates it was already accomplished by God.

Since you think it is progressive when do you feel you have done enough to be saved? And why do you think Jesus' shed blood does not pay for all your sins?

What I see is that you seem to think salvation is something you have to work for to make God owe you salvation and therefore salvation it is not a gift from God.

Your first point in RED is ludicrous.

YOU are using the word "Being" as a noun - which, normally would be fine.
HOWEVER, this is completely out of context with what I wrote, using it as a verb. I stated that the Scriptures tell us that we are BEING saved. Again - this is used as a verb.

As for the word "WERE" - this is speaking of initial salvation - the grace of faith. NOTHING in the Scriptures guarantees us that we will remain in this state unless WE cooperate with God's grace.

As for not having "done enough" or that Christ's sacrifice does NOT pay for our sins - that's not what I said.
Our sins are NOT forgiven until WE repent of them. They weren't "magically" forgiven at the cross. they were PAID FOR at the cross. It is up to US to accept and cooperate with this gift and endure in faith - TO THE END.

Finally - I gave you about TEN passages that obliterate the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security.
How about addressing them??

 

[justbyfaith]

Finally - I gave you about TEN passages that obliterate the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security.

Nope, they are not obliterated.

They are answered by the scriptures and the statement that I gave in post #66 (BAPTISM).

 

[justbyfaith]

As for this...

Your first point in RED is ludicrous.

YOU are using the word "Being" as a noun - which, normally would be fine.
HOWEVER, this is completely out of context with what I wrote, using it as a verb. I stated that the Scriptures tell us that we are BEING saved. Again - this is used as a verb.

...I think that he was probably just messing with you....

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree that we must continue in His goodness in order to remain saved...however, I would contend that there is a preservation by the Holy Spirit that takes place in the hearts of those who truly receive Jesus Christ, not only as Saviour, but as Lord:
1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF GOD abideth for ever.

This is CONDITIONAL on DOING the will of God. It doesn’t happen “automatically”.

Heb 10:14

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You need to read this in CONTEXT. Just a few verses later, it says:

2 Heb. 10:23-25
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

And this leads right into the passage that I presents before:
2 Heb. 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for“knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who canfall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Jde 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

This simply states that He is ABLE to keep us from falling. NOTHING about doing this against your will.

2Pe 1:10

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO THESE THINGS, ye shall never fall:

This is CONDITIONAL on the person being DILIGENT. It doesn’t happen “automatically”.

1Jo 2:10
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light

, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

This is CONDITIONAL on loving your brethren and abiding in the light. It doesn’t happen “automatically”.

 

[BreadOfLife]

As for this...
...I think that he was probably just messing with you....

I certainly HOPE so.
This was kind of scary . . .

 

[H. Richard]

Your first point in RED is ludicrous.

YOU are using the word "Being" as a noun - which, normally would be fine.
HOWEVER, this is completely out of context with what I wrote, using it as a verb. I stated that the Scriptures tell us that we are BEING saved. Again - this is used as a verb.

As for the word "WERE" - this is speaking of initial salvation - the grace of faith. NOTHING in the Scriptures guarantees us that we will remain in this state unless WE cooperate with God's grace.

As for not having "done enough" or that Christ's sacrifice does NOT pay for our sins - that's not what I said.
Our sins are NOT forgiven until WE repent of them. They weren't "magically" forgiven at the cross. they were PAID FOR at the cross. It is up to US to accept and cooperate with this gift and endure in faith - TO THE END.

Finally - I gave you about TEN passages that obliterate the false Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security.
How about addressing them??

Why should I address them.. You will not accept anything I might say so why should I bother? You will just use it to say something negative about me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why should I address them.. You will not accept anything I might say so why should I bother? You will just use it to say something negative about me.

No - I approach EVERY post with an open mind.
If you can convince me that they mean something else - then I'll be willing to take another look.

The ONLY time I get "negative" is when I read stupid, anti-Catholic lies right out of the gate. I am ALWAYS willing to have a serious and charitable theological discussion.
So, please - address the passages I presented.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is CONDITIONAL on DOING the will of God. It doesn’t happen “automatically”.

We do the will of God because we have received Jesus perpetually as Lord. Therefore we will abide in Him for ever.

This is CONDITIONAL on loving your brethren and abiding in the light. It doesn’t happen “automatically”.

When we believe in Jesus, He places His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5). We will "automatically" love our brother if we believe in Jesus and have received His Spirit by faith (see Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

So if it is conditional on my loving my brother, it is, truly, only conditional on my having a living and saving faith in Jesus. There is none occasion of stumbling in me because...I believe in Jesus and have His love shed abroad in my heart as a result;...which love does not manifest in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).

And also, I abide in the light for ever because I have received Jesus as my Lord, so that I do the will of God perpetually for the rest of my life. No one can pluck me out of His hand.

 

[justbyfaith]

No - I approach EVERY post with an open mind.

The ONLY time I get "negative" is when I read stupid, anti-Catholic lies right out of the gate.

So you do not have an open mind to anything you might deem an "anti-Catholic lie". You are not open-minded to anything that goes against your own religion...that is the bottom line.

 

[justbyfaith]

This simply states that He is ABLE to keep us from falling. NOTHING about doing this against your will.

As for me, it isn't against my will.

This is CONDITIONAL on the person being DILIGENT. It doesn’t happen “automatically”.

God is able to work into your heart the virtue of diligence if you ask Him to. As for me, He has done it in my heart.

 

[justbyfaith]

You need to read this in CONTEXT. Just a few verses later, it says:

2 Heb. 10:23-25
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

And this leads right into the passage that I presents before:
2 Heb. 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for“knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who canfall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

"for ever" means "for ever". And of course there is a practical aspect to being perfected for ever. If you have not received Jesus as your Lord and as your Saviour from sin, you will very likely find that you stumble and fall more often than not. But if He is your Lord; and if He has set you free from sin: I believe that you will find that He is the One who sustains you, because of that moment of surrender in which He gave you a new heart and a new spirit, in order that He might cause you to walk in His statutes and in his judgments.