BAPTISM

[BreadOfLife]

What is the big deal about going to the Father through Jesus? After all, He did say,

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And it is also written in the epistles:

Eph 2:18, For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12, In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

WHO said we don't do that??

When somebody asks YOU to pray for them - do you ask them why they're not going to the Father through Christ - or is that judgment only reserved for Catholics??

Not only is there NOTHING wrong with asking people to pray for you - we are ENCOURAGED in the Bible to do that (1 Tim. 2:1, James 5:16, 1 John 5:16).

Where do YOU get the idea that this is "wrong"??

 

[justbyfaith]

WRONG.

Who do you think you are...Donald Trump?

 

[justbyfaith]

I suppose that again, we will have to agree to disagree....if you believe that you are not practicing necromancy in praying to the saints, then more power to you...every man, to His own Master, stands or falls.

I, for one, will not pray to the saints or to Mary...for one thing, I don't need to, because I have Jesus.

And for another thing, while your conscience may allow you to do that, I consider it necromancy, so my conscience does not allow me to do that, neither does it allow me to ever cross over to becoming Catholic because of that.

The way I see it, asking dead people to pray for me is not something that I need to do...for Jesus is my mediator and He can pray for me just fine. And if I need someone besides Jesus to pray for me, I prefer someone who is tangible and right in front of me...no need to contact a saint in some kind of seance in order to get his attention...

If I'm not mistaken, Saul made the mistake of doing that and had the witch at En-Dor call up Samuel...God ended up punishing him for doing that.

Again, if your conscience allows you to do that and you are 100% sure that it isn't necromancy, well, I say, more power to you (but if you are even 1% unsure of the matter, then whatsoever is not of faith is sin...Romans 14:23)...but as for me, it would not be something that I could do in faith...

Therefore, we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[epostle]

I suppose that again, we will have to agree to disagree....if you believe that you are not practicing necromancy in praying to the saints, then more power to you...every man, to His own Master, stands or falls.

I, for one, will not pray to the saints or to Mary...for one thing, I don't need to, because I have Jesus.

And for another thing, while your conscience may allow you to do that, I consider it necromancy, so my conscience does not allow me to do that, neither does it allow me to ever cross over to becoming Catholic because of that.

The way I see it, asking dead people to pray for me is not something that I need to do...for Jesus is my mediator and He can pray for me just fine. And if I need someone besides Jesus to pray for me, I prefer someone who is tangible and right in front of me...no need to contact a saint in some kind of seance in order to get his attention...

If I'm not mistaken, Saul made the mistake of doing that and had the witch at En-Dor call up Samuel...God ended up punishing him for doing that.

Again, if your conscience allows you to do that and you are 100% sure that it isn't necromancy, well, I say, more power to you (but if you are even 1% unsure of the matter, then whatsoever is not of faith is sin...Romans 14:23)...but as for me, it would not be something that I could do in faith...

Therefore, we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

Of course we must pray to Jesus. Catholics pray to Jesus all the time.

Some object that the Catholic position on intercessory prayer is the same as necromancy, that is, calling upon the spirits of the dead to find out the future or obtain other information. Necromancy is a grave sin that, far from fostering communion, shows a lack of faith and trust in God. Necromancy was punishable by death under the Mosaic law (Lev. 19:31, 20:6). Some of the early Israelites practiced necromancy, including Saul (1 Sam. 28:3, 8-14), and they were punished severely for doing so (1 Sam. 28:17-19). This practice offended God (2 Kings 21:6) and led to the destruction of Israel.

Catholics do not practice necromancy, which is explicitly forbidden by the Church (cf. Catechism, nos. 2115-17). Rather, they ask for the prayers of the saints to foster communion in the Family of God.

Seeking the intercession of the saints is not necromancy for two reasons.
First, necromancers are usually trying to receive information that they do not have, such as what will happen in the future. Asking the saints to pray for us, however, is not a form of divination or fortune telling.

Second, necromancers are also trying to bring back and control the souls of dead people. Catholics, on the contrary, believe that those who have died in God’s grace are not dead but truly alive, and are able to help us by their prayers. As Jesus says, “[Moses] calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him” (Lk. 20:37-38).

According to Jesus, death cannot separate the faithful—such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—from God. And, if they are alive to God, they must be alive to us through Him as members of His one body. Otherwise, contrary to what Saint Paul says, Christ’s victory over death was incomplete, and His body is not truly one (cf. Jn.17:21; 1 Cor. 12: 12,13; 15:14 et al).

Finally, saints in heaven have no power to answer prayers or do miracles. Only God can do that, a point non-Catholics miss out on all the time.

 

[Enoch111]

The way I see it, asking dead people to pray for me is not something that I need to do...for Jesus is my mediator and He can pray for me just fine.

I agree with what you are saying, but you are incorrect in using the term *dead people* or necromancy.

All the saints (OT and NT) who died are VERY MUCH ALIVE in Heaven since they are in the very presence of God and Christ (as well the the holy angels). Indeed they are called *a great cloud of witnesses* and no one can be a witness if he is still in a coffin: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us... (Heb 12:1)

There is absolutely no Scriptural authority to pray to the saints, since we have Christ and God the Father in Heaven. When the Lord taught His disciples to pray, He taught them to begin their prayer thus: Our Father, which art in Heaven..."

 

[marksman]

What question?



I don't think so...for I make it my aim to pull my observations from the text.

Asking that question shows that you did not read what I said.

 

[marksman]

No - the word "Baptism" isn't defined in the NT - and neither is "Adeplhos".
The Bible isn't a dictionary.

That's where the study of linguistics comes into play.

Yes, it is. It means immersion. If you want to believe something else be my guest.

 

[justbyfaith]

And where is your heart as the thief on the cross could not experience sprinkling let alone immersion, so did he go to hell if baptism can save you?

I'm glad you asked.

I believe that baptism in water can be a point of contact (like the handkerchiefs that they took from Paul when he was working) for faith.

Now, obviously, there are scriptures that speak of salvation by faith, even apart from baptism. So I say that baptism is not necessary.

However, it is potent and capable, of accomplishing salvation in a man.

Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 speaks of a conditional promise, given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The condition is repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins;

The promise is the Holy Ghost.

Rom 8:30, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is something about the faith of the operation of God in the followng:

Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Of course, here the picture is immersion; however the point is that it is faith in baptism as a point of contact that makes us risen with Christ.

It is a promise of scripture (in Ezekiel 36:25-27) that He will give us a new heart and a new spirit, and will cause us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments, when He has sprinkled clean water on us. Therefore sprinkling is not invalid. Of course immersion is better; as it is the picture that is given in so many New Testament passages, as:

Rom 6:1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2, God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3, Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4, Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Walking in newness of life, therefore, is provided for through baptism in water. Is this not practical salvation?

Now answer my question.

The answer to your question was in the post.

It is in that I do not believe that baptism is necessary for salvation; only that it can serve as a point of contact for salvation.

I wondered what your question was that you thought that I had not answered since I had answered it. That's all.

 

[justbyfaith]

Now answer my question.

The question itself was also located some 5-7 pages back from where you mentioned it in the post that I quote above.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree with what you are saying, but you are incorrect in using the term *dead people* or necromancy.

All the saints (OT and NT) who died are VERY MUCH ALIVE in Heaven since they are in the very presence of God and Christ (as well the the holy angels). Indeed they are called *a great cloud of witnesses* and no one can be a witness if he is still in a coffin: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us... (Heb 12:1)

There is absolutely no Scriptural authority to pray to the saints, since we have Christ and God the Father in Heaven. When the Lord taught His disciples to pray, He taught them to begin their prayer thus: Our Father, which art in Heaven..."

The point being that they have gone on to be in the afterlife...of course they are alive unto the Lord in heaven...however they are located on the other side...where those who have died go to be.

The question of whether the resurrection has already taken place or whether their spirits are with the Lord and their bodies still lie dead in the grave is another story. Personally, I believe that it is the latter.

Their spirit is separated from their body...therefore by that definition, they are dead.

 

[H. Richard]

What question?



I don't think so...for I make it my aim to pull my observations from the text.

And you do not think I do, right????????????? Give me a break.

I found two places where James got his facts wrong and posted them. But it was met with abusive replies showing that most do not really believe the text unless it supports their theology.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT!
No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

People can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

 

[justbyfaith]

And you do not think I do, right????????????? Give me a break.

I found two places where James got his facts wrong and posted them. But it was met with abusive replies showing that most do not really believe the text unless it supports their theology.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT!
No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account.
Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

People can argue this until they are blue in the face but it does not change the FACTS as shown in Genesis.

So, you have to also discount 2 Timothy 3:16 as being scriptural fact...and when you do this, all of scripture comes into question.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

You are assuming that the apostle James did not have the Holy Spirit, and thus the authority to give authoritative words on how the OT scriptures were to be interpreted. Fact is, James had apostolic authority.

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT!
No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God. Check it out in Genesis 15;4-6 below..

Romans 4:2 is the key to understanding these verses.

Before the Lord, Abraham was justified by faith alone in Genesis 15. However, before men, he was not justified except in that his faith showed itself forth to be genuine in his work of offering up Isaac.

 

[H. Richard]

You are assuming that the apostle James did not have the Holy Spirit, and thus the authority to give authoritative words on how the OT scriptures were to be interpreted. Fact is, James had apostolic authority.



Romans 4:2 is the key to understanding these verses.

Before the Lord, Abraham was justified by faith alone in Genesis 15. However, before men, he was not justified except in that his faith showed itself forth to be genuine in his work of offering up Isaac.

You don't need a KEY. The words are plain and mean what they say. A person does not need to be justified before man. As I said, the religious will not say anything about the FACTS that James got wrong. They will stick their heads in the sand and just ignore them and want others to go to other places in the scriptures that they think support Jame's writings that faith without works is dead.

What James wrote was to the Jews who were under the law. If a person did not do the works of the law they did not have any faith in the law. As for James being one of the 12, that is debatable There is a case for the writer to be the brother of Jesus since the apostle James was killed.

WE, today, are not under the LAW and a book saying we are is wrong..

 

[H. Richard]

According to the ""world Book Encyclopedia" (COPYRIGHT 1990, U.S.A.) the writer of the Book of James was not the apostle James, but the brother of Jesus.

James should not be confused with James, the son of Alphaeus or James the son of Zebedee who were among the 12 apostles.

Do your homework!

 

[BreadOfLife]

I suppose that again, we will have to agree to disagree....if you believe that you are not practicing necromancy in praying to the saints, then more power to you...every man, to His own Master, stands or falls.

I, for one, will not pray to the saints or to Mary...for one thing, I don't need to, because I have Jesus.

And for another thing, while your conscience may allow you to do that, I consider it necromancy, so my conscience does not allow me to do that, neither does it allow me to ever cross over to becoming Catholic because of that.

The way I see it, asking dead people to pray for me is not something that I need to do...for Jesus is my mediator and He can pray for me just fine. And if I need someone besides Jesus to pray for me, I prefer someone who is tangible and right in front of me...no need to contact a saint in some kind of seance in order to get his attention...

If I'm not mistaken, Saul made the mistake of doing that and had the witch at En-Dor call up Samuel...God ended up punishing him for doing that.

Again, if your conscience allows you to do that and you are 100% sure that it isn't necromancy, well, I say, more power to you (but if you are even 1% unsure of the matter, then whatsoever is not of faith is sin...Romans 14:23)...but as for me, it would not be something that I could do in faith...

Therefore, we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

YOU don't get to make up the definition of "Necromancy". There is already a definition - and asking the saints to p[ray for us does NOT fit that definition.

Secondly - Saul and the witch of Endor tried to conjure up the spirit of Samuel to get information. this is the textbook definition of "necromancy". Had they simply asked Samuel to pray for them - they would NOT have been guilty f anything.

Finally - to ignorantly refer to the saints in Heaven as "dead people" is to reject the promises of Christ.
Those in Heaven are not only NOT dead - they are MORE alive that YOU are - so why would you refer to them as "dead people"??

Don't let your ignorance and pride make you lose your understanding of God's Word.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, it is. It means immersion. If you want to believe something else be my guest.

Uhhh, no - I've already PROVEN tp you with an historical document from the SAME period in the SAME Koine Greek that it doesn't ALWAYS mean "immersion.
The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Aposttles (AD 50) speaks of Baptism as immersion - as well as pouring over the Head.

All YOU have is your little opinion - and you know what they say about opinions . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

You don't need a KEY. The words are plain and mean what they say. A person does not need to be justified before man. As I said, the religious will not say anything about the FACTS that James got wrong. They will stick their heads in the sand and just ignore them and want others to go to other places in the scriptures that they think support Jame's writings that faith without works is dead.

What James wrote was to the Jews who were under the law. If a person did not do the works of the law they did not have any faith in the law. As for James being one of the 12, that is debatable There is a case for the writer to be the brother of Jesus since the apostle James was killed.

WE, today, are not under the LAW and a book saying we are is wrong..

My friend, are you trying to contend for the idea that all scripture is not inspired of the Lord?

According to the ""world Book Encyclopedia" (COPYRIGHT 1990, U.S.A.) the writer of the Book of James was not the apostle James, but the brother of Jesus.

James should not be confused with James, the son of Alphaeus or James the son of Zebedee who were among the 12 apostles.

Do your homework!

I was aware that it was James the brother of Jesus. However, was he not a witness of the resurrection of Christ; and also with them from the beginning?

 

[justbyfaith]

YOU don't get to make up the definition of "Necromancy". There is already a definition - and asking the saints to p[ray for us does NOT fit that definition.

Secondly - Saul and the witch of Endor tried to conjure up the spirit of Samuel to get information. this is the textbook definition of "necromancy". Had they simply asked Samuel to pray for them - they would NOT have been guilty f anything.

Finally - to ignorantly refer to the saints in Heaven as "dead people" is to reject the promises of Christ.
Those in Heaven are not only NOT dead - they are MORE alive that YOU are - so why would you refer to them as "dead people"??

Don't let your ignorance and pride make you lose your understanding of God's Word.

Believe what you want to. You have been warned however.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Believe what you want to. You have been warned however.

Your lack of an evidential response exposes your complete ignorance on this matter.

As I've repeatedly told you - opinions are NOT valid evidence . . .