Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[FredVB]

All the church is not the "true Israel". Promises to Israel were really to Israel to whom God made the promises. Gentiles who come to Christ are grafted in to be included as the people of God. But they do not even observe all the things for the people of Israel, they should though observe the ten commandments. There is the term spiritual Israel, showing God looks on the true believers of the church as God's people, but God made it clear that can be taken away too. The promises to Israel are not for them, unless they take up the Jewish covenant and can think of going to the land of Israel. But why? We would have everything we should want which is through Christ, which even all Jews should want.

 

[covenantee]

All the church is not the "true Israel". Promises to Israel were really to Israel to whom God made the promises. Gentiles who come to Christ are grafted in to be included as the people of God. But they do not even observe all the things for the people of Israel, they should though observe the ten commandments. There is the term spiritual Israel, showing God looks on the true believers of the church as God's people, but God made it clear that can be taken away too. The promises to Israel are not for them, unless they take up the Jewish covenant and can think of going to the land of Israel. But why? We would have everything we should want which is through Christ, which even all Jews should want.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have written your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things. Unbelieving Israel is not an heir. Galatians 4:30-31.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that those who are in Christ are heirs and joint heirs with Him.

But it is clear, plain, and undeniable:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Gentile or Jew...

Who is not in Christ under His New Covenant/Testament.

 

[WPM]

All the church is not the "true Israel". Promises to Israel were really to Israel to whom God made the promises. Gentiles who come to Christ are grafted in to be included as the people of God. But they do not even observe all the things for the people of Israel, they should though observe the ten commandments. There is the term spiritual Israel, showing God looks on the true believers of the church as God's people, but God made it clear that can be taken away too. The promises to Israel are not for them, unless they take up the Jewish covenant and can think of going to the land of Israel. But why? We would have everything we should want which is through Christ, which even all Jews should want.

Can you address the Op that rebuts this?

 

[PS95]

Can you address the Op that rebuts this?

Fascinating thread- thanks!
I am one of those who leans toward your view on this subject, but I still have several unanswered questions. One is chapter 14 of Zechariah. How do you see that? If you have time I would really appreciate your break down.

 

[WPM]

Fascinating thread- thanks!
I am one of those who leans toward your view on this subject, but I still have several unanswered questions. One is chapter 14 of Zechariah. How do you see that? If you have time I would really appreciate your break down.

Thanks!!!

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now "worship" God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God.

It is difficult to decipher because it is written in a type of apocalyptic form, which contains a mixture of literal and cryptic language. and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written.

 

[PS95]

Thank you- I will keep studying it

 

[Scott Downey]

NKJV
For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

This should tell you in Christ are all the promises of God. Which has many implications, including that the Church is true Israel today.
If God moves on the hearts of Jewish people saving them, they will also be in His church and of Israel, otherwise they are outside, in outer darkness.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 1 - 21st Century King James Version

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia: Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus...

www.biblegateway.com

18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not “yea” and “nay.”

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not “yea” and “nay,” but in Him was “yea.”

20 For all the promises of God in Him are “yea”; and in Him “amen” unto the glory of God by us.

21 Now He who establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God,

22 who hath also put His seal upon us, and given us the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

[Scott Downey]

As His People, believing gentiles are grafted into the true vine, Kinsman according to the flesh are not the children of God.
Matthew 18

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, “Go thy way, and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” And his servant was healed in that selfsame hour.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9 - 21st Century King James Version

I speak the truth in Christ -- I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost-- that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are...

www.biblegateway.com

I speak the truth in Christ — I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost—

2 that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4 who are Israelites and to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 of whom are the fathers, and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 It is not as though the Word of God hath taken no effect. For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel;

7 neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children; but, “In Isaac shall thy seed be called.”

8 That is, they who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; rather, the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac

11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, in order that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not by works, but by Him that calleth),

12 it was said unto her, “The elder shall serve the younger.”

13 As it is written: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

 

[WPM]

NKJV
For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

This should tell you in Christ are all the promises of God. Which has many implications, including that the Church is true Israel today.
If God moves on the hearts of Jewish people saving them, they will also be in His church and of Israel, otherwise they are outside, in outer darkness.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 1 - 21st Century King James Version

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia: Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus...

www.biblegateway.com

18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not “yea” and “nay.”

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not “yea” and “nay,” but in Him was “yea.”

20 For all the promises of God in Him are “yea”; and in Him “amen” unto the glory of God by us.

21 Now He who establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God,

22 who hath also put His seal upon us, and given us the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts.

Yes. The truth is simple and fits together.

 

[Davy]

Fascinating thread- thanks!
I am one of those who leans toward your view on this subject, but I still have several unanswered questions. One is chapter 14 of Zechariah. How do you see that? If you have time I would really appreciate your break down.

I wouldn't be so quick to believe a lot of what is claimed on this thread. You'd be better off studying your Bible on your own instead of heeding what some here say.

What our Heavenly Father says about the literal flesh seed of Israel...

Isa 43:22-25
22 But thou hast not called upon Me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of Me, O Israel.
23 Thou hast not brought Me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured Me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
24 Thou hast bought Me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled Me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made Me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied Me with thine iniquities.
25 I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine Own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
KJV

Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV

It really ticks me off to have to listen to a bunch of holy rollers try to usurp God's chosen status for the literal 'seed' of Israel. And especially when they TRY... to use Apostle Paul to confirm their false notions by denying what Paul taught in Romans 11 about the spiritual blindness God put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul then told us in Christ, to NOT BE CONCEITED against the unbelieving Jews, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Christ's coming), then their blindness God put upon them away from The Gospel will be removed. And Paul then says a surprising truth that New Testament only readers cannot stand to hear...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The above declaration by Apostle Paul quoting from Isaiah is what these 'seed' robbers here cannot stand. The "Deliverer" (Jesus Christ) that shall come out of "Sion", shall turn away ungodliness from JACOB's seed, WHEN? It has not happened yet today. When Paul showed that God has spiritually blinded the majority of the unbelieving Jews, that proves... this has NOT happened yet for the Jews, i.e., the nation of Israel. But Paul reminds that God will in final... take away the Jew's sins, and remember them no more. And that will be because when their 'blindness' is removed like Paul said, then... they will believe The Gospel.


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

God chose the 'seed' of Israel, and we, Christ's Church, cannot change that. And those who try to claim the unbelieving Jews today are doomed and that God has forgotten them, are telling LIES against the actual written Bible Scripture and what God, and even what Apostle Paul taught!

Rom 11:1-5
11 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Fascinating thread- thanks!
I am one of those who leans toward your view on this subject, but I still have several unanswered questions. One is chapter 14 of Zechariah. How do you see that? If you have time I would really appreciate your break down.

Here also is what many of my Christian brethren who only read their New Testament are missing, which is a history summary about God's Israel and what became of the majority of the 'seed' of Israel...

1. God split old Israel in Solomon's day into two separate kingdoms, because Solomon allowed his many foreigner wives to bring in idol worship unto the children of Israel (1 Kings 11 forward).

2. Solomon's son Rehoboam of Judah, of the house of David, became king of Judah over the southern "house of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea. Only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were with him at the split.

3. God made Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim "king of Israel" over the Northern Ten Tribes that dwelt in the northern parts of the holy land. This northern kingdom was also called the "house of Israel".

4. The two kings and kingdoms, Rehoboam and Jeroboam, had war against each all their days. Rehoboam tried to bring the whole kingdom of Israel back together under his reign at Jerusalem. God told him through His prophet that this split was of Him, and to not go up to fight his brethren of the ten northern tribes.

5. Jeroboam, "king of Israel" over the northern ten tribes, setup two calf idols in false worship in the north to try and prevent the ten tribes from traveling south to Jerusalem for proper worship. He worried that Judah's numbers would be increased. He also prevented the Levite priests in the northern lands from doing their priest duties, and instead made common priests of the people. The Levites then left the north and sided with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem. A small remnant of the ten northern tribes also rejected Jeroboam's calf idols and left the north and went south and joined with Judah. These three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi made up the southern kingdom and became known as the Jews, that title originating from the sole tribe of Judah.

6. After many kings had passed for both the "kingdom of Judah" and the "kingdom of Israel", the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" still was following Jeroboam's calf idol worship, and God got fed up with it. So God brought the kings of Assyria in stages against the northern "kingdom of Israel" and the ten tribes were taken captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return as a people.

7. Per God's prophet Hosea, God revealed what He would do with the scattered ten tribes of the northern kingdom. God said He would hedge up their paths so they would not find their way back, and that they would lose knowledge of His feast days, new moons, and sabbaths, and live as Gentiles, among the Gentiles. But that He would bring them into the "wilderness" and speak softly to them, and give them a New Covenant, and they would again become His people, and He would be their God.

It's a proclamation of the literal seed's involvement in The New Covenant Jesus Christ. This is why Lord Jesus said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes only). After the majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected Him, The Gospel would go to the ten tribes that were scattered among the Gentiles, and they both would become one making up Christ's Church, even as it is to this day. Only a small remnant of the Jews have believed on Lord Jesus, the majority of them are still blinded today away from The Gospel. But unto the ten tribes of Israel, The Gospel went to them immediately after the cross, and thus among the Gentiles where they had been scattered. And this is about a HUGE NUMBER... of the literal SEED of Israelites with the ten scattered tribes. They made up the majority of Israelites before God split old Israel.

This history can be found starting at 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 where it shows the ten tribes were removed from the holy land. It is also in 2 Chronicles 11 forward. And also written of in many of the Old Testament prophets, especially the Book of Hosea.

 

[WPM]

I wouldn't be so quick to believe a lot of what is claimed on this thread. You'd be better off studying your Bible on your own instead of heeding what some here say.

What our Heavenly Father says about the literal flesh seed of Israel...

Isa 43:22-25
22 But thou hast not called upon Me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of Me, O Israel.
23 Thou hast not brought Me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured Me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
24 Thou hast bought Me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled Me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made Me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied Me with thine iniquities.
25 I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine Own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
KJV

Hello! There must be a personal relationship for someone to be chosen, redeemed and forgiven. You deem Christ-haters as God's chosen people. This is unbiblical.

Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36

If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV

It really ticks me off to have to listen to a bunch of holy rollers try to usurp God's chosen status for the literal 'seed' of Israel. And especially when they TRY... to use Apostle Paul to confirm their false notions by denying what Paul taught in Romans 11 about the spiritual blindness God put upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul then told us in Christ, to NOT BE CONCEITED against the unbelieving Jews, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Christ's coming), then their blindness God put upon them away from The Gospel will be removed. And Paul then says a surprising truth that New Testament only readers cannot stand to hear...

Really? If you would actually address the biblical rebuttals instead of your hit and runs you might actually learn something. But no. This is because your teaching does not abide biblical scrutiny.

Israel still survives as a spiritual nation manifested in the NT Church. The caterpillar has changed into the butterfly. Natural Israel have developed into spiritual Israel. This is the way it was always meant to be. We are the Israel of God, spiritual Jews, the circumcision of God, the children of Abraham by faith. Why would that be an issue?

This has to be speaking about true spiritual Israel. After all, there has been lengthy periods in history where Israel has not been a physical nation. It is not talking about all Jews. Regardless of the disobedience, regardless of the schemes of Satan, there is a remnant of Jews of the seed of Israel which shall not cease from being a nation. They belong to spiritual Israel God's holy nation, a peculiar people (1 Peter 2:9). God's nation is a spiritual nation, not a physical nation that overwhelmingly rejects Jesus.

Paul asks in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

The evidence that God had not rejected Israel as a whole back in Paul’s day is shown here in the fact that there was a small remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement. Dispensationalists conveniently overlook this with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that God must save every single Jew in order for Him to be considered faithful to Israel. But that is not what Scripture says or demands.

God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to embrace His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

So, the nation described in Jeremiah 31:35-37 that will never cease to be before God is clearly spiritual Israel.

 

[WPM]

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The above declaration by Apostle Paul quoting from Isaiah is what these 'seed' robbers here cannot stand. The "Deliverer" (Jesus Christ) that shall come out of "Sion", shall turn away ungodliness from JACOB's seed, WHEN? It has not happened yet today. When Paul showed that God has spiritually blinded the majority of the unbelieving Jews, that proves... this has NOT happened yet for the Jews, i.e., the nation of Israel. But Paul reminds that God will in final... take away the Jew's sins, and remember them no more. And that will be because when their 'blindness' is removed like Paul said, then... they will believe The Gospel.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

KJV

God chose the 'seed' of Israel, and we, Christ's Church, cannot change that. And those who try to claim the unbelieving Jews today are doomed and that God has forgotten them, are telling LIES against the actual written Bible Scripture and what God, and even what Apostle Paul taught!

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

What Paul is teaching in Romans 11:28 is in keeping with what he stated in his introductory comments in Romans 11:1-17. He is showing the two types of people that exist in Israel – like any nation. There was/is the Israel that is saved and there was/is the Israel that is unregenerate. You have “the elect[ion]” (God’s chosen) and you have the blind (those who are “enemies” of God).

Basically, not all Israel are saved. Not all Israel are lost. Part of Israel is blinded and part is elect.

This passage shows that there are two diverse camps within natural Israel while the Gentiles come in during this new covenant period – saved and lost. This applies to every nation. Paul depicts the faithful believing remnant within Israelite (those who belong to “the good olive tree”) as “the election” or “a remnant according to the election of grace.” It is this faithful remnant alone that “are beloved for the fathers sakes.” The remaining segment that are "broken off" are depicted as “blinded” and “enemies” of “the Gospel.” They are the lost Israelis.

So here you have it, talking about natural fleshly Christ-rejecting Israel:

• “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh” (Romans 2:28).
• “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children” (Romans 9:6-7).
• “Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness” (Romans 9:31).
• “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for” (Romans 11:7).
• “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes” (Romans 11:28).

No one could argue with any credence that these statements relate to all Israelis. It would be utter folly to suggest that none of the Jews have obtained what they sought. Neither could anyone argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years. Because of this they are intimately beloved of the Father. They are therefore not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. Romans 9-11 makes clear that they are chosen vessels of God.

This is talking about the unsaved element of Israel that are blinded/hardened. They are lost. They are of their father the devil. The “election” on the other hand are saved. They are the faithful remnant that belongs to God – His favor rests upon them. This holy remnant is not just Jews. They include believing Gentiles from throughout the nations – of all tribes and kindreds.

 

[WPM]

Rom 11:1-5
11 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

• To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
• One also has to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
• As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital boundaries of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
• Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.

 

[Davy]

Hello! There must be a personal relationship for someone to be chosen, redeemed and forgiven. You deem Christ-haters as God's chosen people. This is unbiblical.

....

I don't recommend paying attention to WPM's rhetoric. Apostle Paul in Romans 11 showed that his brethren the Jews were chosen by God, but that God spiritually blinded the majority of them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Then Paul said in the fullness of the Gentiles, their blindness will be removed. Paul even said that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, which means God is not... going to go back on His having chosen them and His promises to them.

Those who go against what Apostle Paul said there in Romans 11 thus go against God's Word, and are not... to be trusted.

 

[Davy]

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

What Paul is teaching in Romans 11:28 is in keeping with what he stated in his introductory comments in Romans 11:1-17. He is showing the two types of people that exist in Israel – like any nation. There was/is the Israel that is saved and there was/is the Israel that is unregenerate. You have “the elect[ion]” (God’s chosen) and you have the blind (those who are “enemies” of God).

Basically, not all Israel are saved. Not all Israel are lost. Part of Israel is blinded and part is elect.

....

Once again, I do not recommend listening to WPM's rhetoric. He contradicts himself.

No amount of twisting of what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about the 'blinded' Jews will change their coming to Christ Jesus once that blindness is removed. WPM is totally disregarding that "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", "And so all Israel shall be saved:...:".

That means... today, we DO NOT YET KNOW who all among the unbelieving Jews will convert to Lord Jesus Christ in the future. Anyone trying to act like they know (like WPM) is usurping the Authority that belongs ONLY to Lord Jesus Christ! That's why brethren in Christ should steer away from those like WPM who tries to insert doctrines of men into the Scriptures.

 

[WPM]

I don't recommend paying attention to WPM's rhetoric. Apostle Paul in Romans 11 showed that his brethren the Jews were chosen by God, but that God spiritually blinded the majority of them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Then Paul said in the fullness of the Gentiles, their blindness will be removed. Paul even said that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, which means God is not... going to go back on His having chosen them and His promises to them.

Those who go against what Apostle Paul said there in Romans 11 thus go against God's Word, and are not... to be trusted.

Why do you continually avoid the arguments of others? Why do you always resort to ad hominem? This is a testimony to the facility of your theology, not the strength of it.

 

[WPM]

Once again, I do not recommend listening to WPM's rhetoric. He contradicts himself.

No amount of twisting of what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about the 'blinded' Jews will change their coming to Christ Jesus once that blindness is removed. WPM is totally disregarding that "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", "And so all Israel shall be saved:...:".

That means... today, we DO NOT YET KNOW who all among the unbelieving Jews will convert to Lord Jesus Christ in the future. Anyone trying to act like they know (like WPM) is usurping the Authority that belongs ONLY to Lord Jesus Christ! That's why brethren in Christ should steer away from those like WPM who tries to insert doctrines of men into the Scriptures.

As you have demonstrated over the years, you have absolutely no rebuttal to the facts. All you have is ad hominem and avoidance. That is your modus operandi!

 

[covenantee]

Once again, I do not recommend listening to WPM's rhetoric. He contradicts himself.

No amount of twisting of what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11 about the 'blinded' Jews will change their coming to Christ Jesus once that blindness is removed. WPM is totally disregarding that "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", "And so all Israel shall be saved:...:".

That means... today, we DO NOT YET KNOW who all among the unbelieving Jews will convert to Lord Jesus Christ in the future. Anyone trying to act like they know (like WPM) is usurping the Authority that belongs ONLY to Lord Jesus Christ! That's why brethren in Christ should steer away from those like WPM who tries to insert doctrines of men into the Scriptures.

Paul has previously identified "all Israel".
It is the saved spiritual remnant. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27.
Stop trying to impose zionist pharisaic racism on the Inspired Word.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[Davy]

Paul has previously identified "all Israel".
It is the saved spiritual remnant. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27.
Stop trying to impose zionist pharisaic racism on the Inspired Word.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Same goes for covenantee as for WPM. Both try to insert falsehood into the Bible Scriptures that is not written. Spiritual Israel is about anyone who of any nationality that believes on Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. The literal SEED of Israel are the CHOSEN SEED which God ordained and has promised to save, all those of them that believe.