Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[Grailhunter]

What did Jesus and John say

John 8
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[b]”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

I never said that God has given up on them, but they individually need to repent and turn to Jesus, but yes ethnic Isreal is not Gods people anymore. True Isreal spiritual Israel the church are now Gods people

Why did He say these things? Because they were true.
The Gospels, Yeshua ministry to the Jews. But the Jewish leadership was always testing Him.
The Jews were given the first opportunity for salvation, which was only right. But most rejected Him.
Why did they reject Him? Most people do not know the Old Testament and Jewish culture to know why.

The Jews were expecting Elijah to come down in a fiery chariot and introduce the Messiah. Nothing secret, a very public event like Yahweh at Mt. Sinai. The Old Testament prophecies were about a human Messiah Warlord King that would take out their oppressors during what is called "the Terrible Day of the Lord" He would then establish his kingdom that would last forever and the Mosaic Law would be the Law of all earth and the Law and animal sacrifices would go on forever. Non of that happened.

For the Jews, Elijah was the senior figure, above the Messiah. That is why the Apostles are asking about Elijah in the Gospels.

Instead, what they got was a peace loving God. And a person saying He was the Son of God, was extremely sacrilegious to their beliefs. The Jews were not looking for someone to save them from Hell or get them to Heaven. The Jews did not believe in Hell or going to Heaven, because in the Old Testament scriptures, Yahweh did not threaten them with Hell or offer Heaven as a destination. They were looking for human Warlord Messiah King, to take out their oppressors and put them in power.

If the Old Testament prophecies were telling of a God Messiah....the Son of God.....It would have filled the prophetic books.....nearly every page.....dancing in the streets.....yelling from the mountain tops. What topic would have been more important......more exciting. But it is not there. Same thing about Jews going to Heaven. If that were true, it would appear all over the Old Testament....big news.....exciting news. People have a tendency to comb through the Old Testament scriptures look for connections and find a scripture and build a religious belief on it. That is no way to understand the scriptures.

So the changes were too much for the Jews to accept. Plus the fact that the Jewish leadership wanted to remain the Jewish leadership. In the Old Testament if someone said they were the Son of God, they would have executed them....so it is not to surprising that that is what happened in the New Testament.

What would have happened if Yeshua was not crucified? No sacrifice or blood to cover our sins?

Was it all their fault that they rejected Him? What if most Christians went to Hell because they did not know or call on the one name for salvation.....Yeshua? No one knows were the word Jesus came from, it just showed up in the 17th century.

Were Jews wrong about the Old Testament prophecies or did something change. To this day a lot of Christians have issues with Yahweh impregnating a woman. So the Jews did not get what they were expecting, their fault or something changed.

Either way the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews were Yahweh's people from the very beginning and I believe that Yahweh will not give up on them.....Forgiveness is the foundation of Christianity, but Christians cannot fathom Yahweh forgiving the Jews.

But still that is not what the scriptures say. According to the scriptures, they are doomed to Hell. So do not bother posting scriptures that say that. I know that very well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you notice that Dispies have no rebuttals to the biblical facts?

Yes, I've noticed that. They literally never do. They would rather spend time coming up with wild speculations than look at what scripture actually teaches because, apparently, the biblical facts are too boring for them.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, I've noticed that. They literally never do. They would rather spend time coming up with wild speculations than look at what scripture actually teaches because, apparently, the biblical facts are too boring for them.

I don't see anyone doing that.
As for me, I acknowledge what the scriptures say.

 

[WPM]

I don't see anyone doing that.
As for me, I acknowledge what the scriptures say.

Start with the Op. Checkout how we have been joined to true believing Israel.

 

[Grailhunter]

Start with the Op. Checkout how we have been joined to true believing Israel.

Ya I know the OP.
I disagree......
Get with the New Testament.
Again the phrase "new Israel" does not occur in the scriptures.
There is nothing about Christianity being the new Israel that describes Christianity, physically or spiritually. God never offered the Israelites/Jews Heaven. God allowed both kingdoms to be conquered. God allowed for the ten tribes to be enslaved and breed out of existence. God allowed for both Temples to be destroyed. And then most of them did not accept their Messiah. All because of their unfaithfulness. Israel represents the failure of people, and the condemnation of God. That is not what God has planned for Christianity.

When you get down to it, as far as the Old Testament Israel, what was the difference between Sodom and Gomorrah and Israel? There is nothing about the Old Testament Israel that Christianity needs to model itself after.

It is much more of a blessing to be called the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ. Adopted as children of God in the family of God destined to inherit Heaven.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Jews and modern Israel. And I am glad to say that I stood between Israel and her enemies.

 

[WPM]

Ya I know the OP.
I disagree......
Get with the New Testament.
Again the phrase "new Israel" does not occur in the scriptures.
There is nothing about Christianity being the new Israel that describes Christianity, physically or spiritually. God never offered the Israelites/Jews Heaven. God allowed both kingdoms to be conquered. God allowed for the ten tribes to be enslaved and breed out of existence. God allowed for both Temples to be destroyed. And then most of them did not accept their Messiah. All because of their unfaithfulness. Israel represents the failure of people, and the condemnation of God. That is not what God has planned for Christianity.

When you get down to it, as far as the Old Testament Israel, what was the difference between Sodom and Gomorrah and Israel? There is nothing about the Old Testament Israel that Christianity needs to model itself after.

It is much more of a blessing to be called the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ. Adopted as children of God in the family of God destined to inherit Heaven.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Jews and modern Israel. And I am glad to say that I stood between Israel and her enemies.

• Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 10:14-16 that there were “other sheep … which are not of this fold” which would be brought into His fold and they would “be one fold, and one shepherd,” talking about the NT overwhelmingly Gentile Church.
• The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11).
• The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). He said He would make one spiritual man out of “twain.”
• The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16).
• The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).
• The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 10:14-16 that there were “other sheep … which are not of this fold” which would be brought into His fold and they would “be one fold, and one shepherd,” talking about the NT overwhelmingly Gentile Church.

People with weird beliefs love this verse....Other sheep in flying saucers????

The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11).

Romans 9-11----> for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,.....?????

• The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). He said He would make one spiritual man out of “twain.”

This is basically a summary of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles. Noting they were not allowed in Judaism. Nothing about them becoming citizen in Isreal or this make believe New Israel.

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:1-13

The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16).

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16
It is calling them the Israel of God. peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

There is nothing here about Christians being Jewish. Its talking about Jews that do not keep the Law. Circumcision does not mean anything for Christians. And if you are uncircumcised, you have not kept the law.
Again this is the type of scripture that those that looks to twist the meaning would really love. Paul makes it clear that Christians are not under the Law and should not follow them. Christ warned about trying to mix Judaism with Christianity.
The thing is, if you are not Jewish, you are not Jewish. But if you want to be included in Judaism you can go to a synagogue and be converted.

The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today.

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be. Romans 4:11-18

There is no doubt that we are descendants of Abraham, religiously. Effectively he started it all. He was the founder of Yahwists. He was before the Mosaic Law and before Israel, before Judaism. But that does not make us Jews or Christianity the "New Israel" Besides Abraham, the Old Testament is a history of failure. In no way should we model Christianity after Judaism. Are Christians going to have multiple wives and selling their daughter as sex slaves?
And frankly, I am suspicious about all this focus on the Old Testament. Is it really an interest in polygamy, concubinage, and slavery. Or having sex with minors that they have bought.

 

[WPM]

People with weird beliefs love this verse....Other sheep in flying saucers????

Jesus says there is now "one fold, and one shepherd" whereas you promote two folds. Sorry, I go with Jesus on this (once again) not Dispensensationalism!

Romans 9-11----> for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,.....?????

No one (apart from someone who has been totally indoctrinated) could surely dispute the fact we are looking at an Israeli tree in Romans 11? Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches” can “be graffed into their own olive tree.” The key phrases in Paul’s comments are “natural branches” and “their own olive tree.” This is clearly an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent Israel, then the “olive tree” must also represent Israel.

This is basically a summary of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles. Noting they were not allowed in Judaism. Nothing about them becoming citizen in Isreal or this make believe New Israel.

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:1-13

Not true. This passage creates a very definite problem for Dispensationalists in that they are forced to acknowledge that the New Testament redeemed have been brought into the citizenship of Israel. Seeing this, they are forced to dilute the meaning and worth of the phrase being “made nigh.” Notwithstanding, by doing this, Dispensationalism end up diluting the significance of the Old Testament believers also being citizens of Israel – because they too are described as being “nigh.”

When the Bible talks about those that are “nigh” to God, it is talking about His redeemed people; when it talks about those that are “afar off,” it is speaking of the ungodly. It is no different in this passage. A basic knowledge of Scripture will quickly confirm this. These are the only two peoples in this world. Psalm145:18 confirms: “The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.” Psalm 34:18 explains, “The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.” Nearness to God denotes definite fellowship and favored relationship.

God is far-away from the wicked. The reason for this has always been sin and rebellion. Isaiah 59:1-2 says, “your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” Distance from God occurs with being ungodly. Proverbs 15:29 says: “The LORD is far from the wicked.” Psalm 138:6 succinctly tells us: “the proud he knoweth afar off.”

It is not difficult to catch the message here.

The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into that which they were once estranged from:

· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16
It is calling them the Israel of God. peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Dispensationalists turn Paul’s whole argument on its head and make it nonsensical by trying to maintain a distinction between Jewish believers and Gentile believers, when that was actually the opposite to Paul’s intent and totally opposite to what he was teaching in this passage. They put a division in Galatians 6:15-16 between Jewish and Gentile believers that actually contradicts everything that Paul was actually teaching and trying to repudiate in the text. He was actually demonstrating that one’s ethnic standing meant nothing when it comes to the blessing and favour of God, but rather it is only one’s spiritual standing that counts. He then adds a postscript: “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

We need to ask for clarity: who are the “as many” referred to here who “walk according to this rule”? Gentile believers only, as Dispensationalists claim? Jewish believers alone? No! It is all those who have become a “new creature” in Christ, irrespective of race. It is the redeemed of God.

The repentant sinner (whether Israeli or Gentile) is supernaturally grafted into Christ’s mystical body – the Church – on the exact same basis. There is no racial discrimination or favoritism in regard to nationality.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

There is nothing here about Christians being Jewish. Its talking about Jews that do not keep the Law. Circumcision does not mean anything for Christians. And if you are uncircumcised, you have not kept the law.
Again this is the type of scripture that those that looks to twist the meaning would really love. Paul makes it clear that Christians are not under the Law and should not follow them. Christ warned about trying to mix Judaism with Christianity.
The thing is, if you are not Jewish, you are not Jewish. But if you want to be included in Judaism you can go to a synagogue and be converted.

Paul basically spiritualizes the terms “circumcision” (or “Jew”) to mean believer, and “uncircumcision” (or “Gentile”) to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially, he is showing: Gentiles can become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews can forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.

Talking about believing Gentiles, in Romans 2:26-29, Paul’s point is that through salvation, Gentiles who are physically uncircumcised are considered as circumcised and regarded as true Jews. They are indeed spiritual Israel. The key of course is faith in Christ – which only comes through the regenerating power of the Spirit of God. Under the new covenant, true Jewishness and circumcision are not physical realities but spiritual concepts made possible by the work of the Spirit of God. It is totally impossible for someone to come into a living relationship with God outside of Christ and the work of the Spirit. Each believer must, of necessity, be ‘born of the Spirit’. (John 3:3-8).

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus says there is now "one fold, and one shepherd" whereas you promote two folds. Sorry, I go with Jesus on this (once again) not Dispensensationalism!

You just got done posting a scripture that talked of another flock LOL
Any way give the scripture.
Dispensationalism, yes.....anything else is Ludacris. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament and the old is a lot different than the new.

No one (apart from someone who has been totally indoctrinated) could surely dispute the fact we are looking at an Israeli tree in Romans 11? Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches” can “be graffed into their own olive tree.” The key phrases in Paul’s comments are “natural branches” and “their own olive tree.” This is clearly an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent Israel, then the “olive tree” must also represent Israel.

"Israel tree" How about a Chicago tree? It is not in the Bible either. Lets just make our religion up as we go......we do not need the Bible.4

Jesus says there is now "one fold, and one shepherd" whereas you promote two folds. Sorry, I go with Jesus on this (once again) not Dispensensationalism!



No one (apart from someone who has been totally indoctrinated) could surely dispute the fact we are looking at an Israeli tree in Romans 11? Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches” can “be graffed into their own olive tree.” The key phrases in Paul’s comments are “natural branches” and “their own olive tree.” This is clearly an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent Israel, then the “olive tree” must also represent Israel.



Not true. This passage creates a very definite problem for Dispensationalists in that they are forced to acknowledge that the New Testament redeemed have been brought into the citizenship of Israel. Seeing this, they are forced to dilute the meaning and worth of the phrase being “made nigh.” Notwithstanding, by doing this, Dispensationalism end up diluting the significance of the Old Testament believers also being citizens of Israel – because they too are described as being “nigh.”

When the Bible talks about those that are “nigh” to God, it is talking about His redeemed people; when it talks about those that are “afar off,” it is speaking of the ungodly. It is no different in this passage. A basic knowledge of Scripture will quickly confirm this. These are the only two peoples in this world. Psalm145:18 confirms: “The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.” Psalm 34:18 explains, “The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.” Nearness to God denotes definite fellowship and favored relationship.

God is far-away from the wicked. The reason for this has always been sin and rebellion. Isaiah 59:1-2 says, “your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” Distance from God occurs with being ungodly. Proverbs 15:29 says: “The LORD is far from the wicked.” Psalm 138:6 succinctly tells us: “the proud he knoweth afar off.”

It is not difficult to catch the message here.

The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into that which they were once estranged from:

· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world



Dispensationalists turn Paul’s whole argument on its head and make it nonsensical by trying to maintain a distinction between Jewish believers and Gentile believers, when that was actually the opposite to Paul’s intent and totally opposite to what he was teaching in this passage. They put a division in Galatians 6:15-16 between Jewish and Gentile believers that actually contradicts everything that Paul was actually teaching and trying to repudiate in the text. He was actually demonstrating that one’s ethnic standing meant nothing when it comes to the blessing and favour of God, but rather it is only one’s spiritual standing that counts. He then adds a postscript: “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

We need to ask for clarity: who are the “as many” referred to here who “walk according to this rule”? Gentile believers only, as Dispensationalists claim? Jewish believers alone? No! It is all those who have become a “new creature” in Christ, irrespective of race. It is the redeemed of God.

The repentant sinner (whether Israeli or Gentile) is supernaturally grafted into Christ’s mystical body – the Church – on the exact same basis. There is no racial discrimination or favoritism in regard to nationality.



Paul basically spiritualizes the terms “circumcision” (or “Jew”) to mean believer, and “uncircumcision” (or “Gentile”) to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially, he is showing: Gentiles can become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews can forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.

Talking about believing Gentiles, in Romans 2:26-29, Paul’s point is that through salvation, Gentiles who are physically uncircumcised are considered as circumcised and regarded as true Jews. They are indeed spiritual Israel. The key of course is faith in Christ – which only comes through the regenerating power of the Spirit of God. Under the new covenant, true Jewishness and circumcision are not physical realities but spiritual concepts made possible by the work of the Spirit of God. It is totally impossible for someone to come into a living relationship with God outside of Christ and the work of the Spirit. Each believer must, of necessity, be ‘born of the Spirit’. (John 3:3-8).

Dispensationalism......this explains a lot. You live in an alternate reality. Sorry not qualified to help you, not a physiatrist. Yes there were periods and they were different and God dealt with man differently. There is no New Israel.
So your interest in the Old Testament? What about it do you like?

 

[WPM]

You just got done posting a scripture that talked of another flock LOL
Any way give the scripture.
Dispensationalism, yes.....anything else is Ludacris. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament and the old is a lot different than the new.



"Israel tree" How about a Chicago tree? It is not in the Bible either. Lets just make our religion up as we go......we do not need the Bible.4



Dispensationalism......this explains a lot. You live in an alternate reality. Sorry not qualified to help you, not a physiatrist. Yes there were periods and they were different and God dealt with man differently. There is no New Israel.
So your interest in the Old Testament? What about it do you like?

You have no rebuttals to the truth, just evasive chides. Every single argument on this thread has been avoided by you. I wonder why? Address the biblical arguments. Is this too much to ask? After all, this is a Bible discussion forum.

 

[Grailhunter]

You have no rebuttals to the truth, just evasive chides. Every single argument on this thread has been avoided by you. I wonder why? Address the biblical arguments. Is this too much to ask? After all, this is a Bible discussion forum.

You are expecting me to shoot a target that is not there. Your beliefs are fabricated and not biblical.
And I have addressed your scriptures. You cannot produce the phrase New Israel in a scripture.

 

[WPM]

You are expecting me to shoot a target that is not there. Your beliefs are fabricated and not biblical.
And I have addressed your scriptures. You cannot produce the phrase New Israel in a scripture.

You have double vision. There is only 1 people of God.

• Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 10:14-16 that there were “other sheep … which are not of this fold” which would be brought into His fold and they would “be one fold, and one shepherd,” talking about the NT overwhelmingly Gentile Church.
• The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11).
• The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). He said He would make one spiritual man out of “twain.”
• The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16).
• The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).
• The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today.

 

[WPM]

You just got done posting a scripture that talked of another flock LOL
Any way give the scripture.
Dispensationalism, yes.....anything else is Ludacris. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament and the old is a lot different than the new.



"Israel tree" How about a Chicago tree? It is not in the Bible either. Lets just make our religion up as we go......we do not need the Bible.4



Dispensationalism......this explains a lot. You live in an alternate reality. Sorry not qualified to help you, not a physiatrist. Yes there were periods and they were different and God dealt with man differently. There is no New Israel.
So your interest in the Old Testament? What about it do you like?

You need to see that there is a natural seed and a spiritual seed. The natural seed have one birth. The spiritual seed has two births. The first seed is from below. The second seed is from above. One is carnal and the other belongs to God.

The Apostles declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”

Most Christians are aware that Scripture places men into one of two general ethnic camps in a natural sense – circumcision and uncircumcision (also known as Jew and Gentile). However, Scripture equally places men into one of two general ethnic camps in a spiritual sense – circumcision and uncircumcision (also known as Jew and Gentile).

In this reading Paul reveals a profound spiritual truth how physically uncircumcised Gentiles are viewed as the circumcised, and physically circumcised Jews are viewed as uncircumcised. This seems contradictory and mistaken. After all Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. In a natural sense this is true, but in a spiritual sense this isn’t. Paul goes on to prove this. He shows how the title “Jew” and “circumcision” are choice spiritual titles that relate alone to the redeemed of God.

It is not that these terms don’t have natural meanings but that the natural sense carries no special merit with God. We learn (quoting from the American Standard Version), “For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.” Basically what he is saying is that if you are not a child of God your Jewishness means absolutely nothing.

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualises them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

The title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. It would have been the greatest insult to a Jew.

A Jew today in God’s eyes is not physical but spiritual. Paul succinctly says, “he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.” Those that are born again, irrespective of nationality or color, are classed as true Jews.

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the international trans-ethnic Church, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

This couldn't be clearer: "we are the circumcision" who are "in the Spirit."

We are not natural Israel or natural Jews or natural circumcision or natural sons of Abraham (that means nothing anyway), we are the spiritual circumcision - the true circumcision. We are the only chosen people on planet earth.

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

These verses I quoted demonstrate that the old covenant has been abolished. The impotence of physical circumcision is inextricably connected to the impotence of the old covenant. There was a time before the cross when physical circumcision was integral to the believer's profession - natural Israel being exclusively His covenant people. That is no longer the case today. Circumcision is no longer physical but spiritual. His covenant people are the redeemed of all nations (Jew and Gentile) not merely natural Israelis. The old theocracy has gone for ever. God chosen people are the Church of Jesus Christ. The old covenant ordinances (including circumcision) have all been nailed to the tree of Calvary - thus their uselessness.

Galatians 3:7-9 also says, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Those who have come to Christ by simple faith are here identified as the true children of Abraham. Paul takes an emotive term that the Jews earnestly coveted as exclusively their own (namely “Abraham’s seed”) and applied it to the New Testament Church (which contains Gentile Christians as well as Jews). He applies the covenant blessings of Abraham to a spiritual seed, in the form of the redeemed New Testament Church – made up of Jews and Gentiles. That Church was grafted into the true believing Israel in the Old Testament. They didn’t replace them as some would imagine, but were integrated into the “commonwealth (or citizenship) of Israel” and all the promises pertaining to the same; all this points to the organic and covenantal unity of the people of God. In several places, Paul takes descriptions or terms that pertained exclusively to the earthly nation of Israel in an Old Covenant context and applies them to the Church in a New Covenant context. In an Old Covenant context, the terms “Israel,” “Abraham’s seed,” Jew “the circumcision” related solely to those within natural Israel (including Gentile converts), but in a New Covenant context these terms take on a spiritual significance.

 

[Grailhunter]

You have double vision. There is only 1 people of God.

• Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 10:14-16 that there were “other sheep … which are not of this fold” which would be brought into His fold and they would “be one fold, and one shepherd,” talking about the NT overwhelmingly Gentile Church.
• The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11).
• The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). He said He would make one spiritual man out of “twain.”
• The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16).
• The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).
• The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today.

I have already responded to this......post 307

 

[Grailhunter]

You need to see that there is a natural seed and a spiritual seed. The natural seed have one birth. The spiritual seed has two births. The first seed is from below. The second seed is from above. One is carnal and the other belongs to God.

And I am still looking for your New Isreal in the scriptures.
And I have already agreed that we are the religious descendants of Abraham. But that does not make us an Israel or a new Israel. There is nothing about Israel that is a moral guide or model to reflect in Christianity.

 

[WPM]

I have already responded to this......post 307

You have already fudged it. It demolishes what you have been taught.

 

[WPM]

And I am still looking for your New Isreal in the scriptures.
And I have already agreed that we are the religious descendants of Abraham. But that does not make us an Israel or a new Israel. There is nothing about Israel that is a moral guide or model to reflect in Christianity.

I just showed you explicit Scripture. You are incapable of exegeting Scripture or rebutting counter-arguments. Until you do, it is pointless engaging with you. There is no depth to your posts. All i see is fly-by personal opinions. There are no scriptural arguments to refute. All I am seeing is your faulty opinions that someone has wrongly taught you. It is more important to take the words of God over your words, and the words of others.

I refer you back to countless avoided posts on this thread that forbid your doctrine.

 

[Grailhunter]

You have already fudged it. It demolishes what you have been taught.

LOL Still waiting for the New Israel scripture.
And what is it about the Israel that we should admire?

 

[Grailhunter]

I just showed you explicit Scripture. You are incapable of exegeting Scripture or rebutting counter-arguments. Until you do, it is pointless engaging with you. There is no depth to your posts. All i see is fly-by personal opinions. There are no scriptural arguments to refute. All I am seeing is your faulty opinions that someone has wrongly taught you. It is more important to take the words of God over your words, and the words of others.

I refer you back to countless avoided posts on this thread that forbid your doctrine.

You have a fantasy religion. There is no scripture that says we are a New Israel. We are children of God.
How do I produce a scripture to refute a scripture when you have not produced any that say we an Israel of any type.

 

[WPM]

You have a fantasy religion. There is no scripture that says we are a New Israel. We are children of God.
How do I produce a scripture to refute a scripture when you have not produced any that say we an Israel of any type.

I've never used the term new Israel in my life. That is your invented term. I've told you and showed you that we are the Israel of God today. You have no rebuttal for that. You have to invent terms to try and justify your error.