Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[WPM]

No dispensationalists live in reality. Has nothing to do with respect, just tell it like it is.

The Apostle declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

There you have it! We are the circumcision today. We are the spiritual Jews today.

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes under the new covenant. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualizes them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

The Holy Spirit shows the supernatural change that occurs under the new covenant where physical circumcision has been superseded by just spiritual circumcision in salvation. This is the sign of covenant participation. This change is so clear and indisputable. It is spiritual.

Throughout the New Testament, the natural ethnic title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the natural ethnic title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. It would have been the greatest insult to a Jew.

He is comparing those that are spiritually circumcised (representing all believers – both Jew and Gentile) to those that are spiritually non-circumcised (representing unbelievers – both Jew and Gentile). This is essentially a saved or lost issue, which keeps coming up repeatedly in Scripture. That is the only 2 peoples in this world, not Jew or Gentile.

It would be helpful to categorize the parties in view. Let us illustrate.

(A) Physical circumcision
(B) Physical non-circumcision
(C) Spiritual circumcision of the heart
(D) Spiritual non-circumcision of the heart

What Paul is saying is that A and B means nothing. Salvation is not a natural matter. He is emphasizing here as he continually does in his writings, C and D are what it is all about. This is how God truly views all men. Nothing else matters. He shows that C refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status that accept Christ. He especially highlights how the Gentile who is by nature a B has been brought into this chosen grouping (C) through the blood of Jesus. He equally shows that D refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status who reject Christ. He especially highlights the fact there will be those of A that equally belong to D and therefore damned. Nothing could be simpler.

 

[WPM]

Post 219

That is my post. You have avoided it throughout this thread - as you do.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Apostle declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

There you have it! We are the circumcision today. We are the spiritual Jews today.

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes under the new covenant. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualizes them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

The Holy Spirit shows the supernatural change that occurs under the new covenant where physical circumcision has been superseded by just spiritual circumcision in salvation. This is the sign of covenant participation. This change is so clear and indisputable. It is spiritual.

Throughout the New Testament, the natural ethnic title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the natural ethnic title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. It would have been the greatest insult to a Jew.

He is comparing those that are spiritually circumcised (representing all believers – both Jew and Gentile) to those that are spiritually non-circumcised (representing unbelievers – both Jew and Gentile). This is essentially a saved or lost issue, which keeps coming up repeatedly in Scripture. That is the only 2 peoples in this world, not Jew or Gentile.

It would be helpful to categorize the parties in view. Let us illustrate.

(A) Physical circumcision
(B) Physical non-circumcision
(C) Spiritual circumcision of the heart
(D) Spiritual non-circumcision of the heart

What Paul is saying is that A and B means nothing. Salvation is not a natural matter. He is emphasizing here as he continually does in his writings, C and D are what it is all about. This is how God truly views all men. Nothing else matters. He shows that C refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status that accept Christ. He especially highlights how the Gentile who is by nature a B has been brought into this chosen grouping (C) through the blood of Jesus. He equally shows that D refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status who reject Christ. He especially highlights the fact there will be those of A that equally belong to D and therefore damned. Nothing could be simpler.

See you keep bringing up circumcision.
We are the spiritual circumcision, the spiritual Israel, the spiritual Jerusalem, the spiritual Indians, the spiritual Incas, the spiritual Persians.....now we need to draw a picture of it.

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 1st Corinthians 7:19

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:2-6

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Galatians 6:15

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:11

 

[Grailhunter]

That is my post. You have avoided it throughout this thread - as you do.

Opps! 418

 

[WPM]

A lot of Christians do not think they are any more. Some Christians petty much hate them.....their father is the devil sort of thing.
But I still think they are of the "holy seed" the chosen. But they lost favor in the Old Testament and God pretty much stomped them in the ground. Then they cursed themselves. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let is blood be on us and our children! And so it was.
But I love the Jews and Israel and I think God still as a plan for the Jews.
But Judaism is not Christianity and Christianity is not Israel physical or spiritual.

How can they who hate Christ be holy?

 

[covenantee]

I think God still as a plan for the Jews.

True.

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[WPM]

Opps! 418

God uses the terms “Israel,” “circumcision,” “Jews,” Jerusalem, Zion (Sion) and “children of the Abraham” in both a natural earthly sense and a spiritual heavenly sense in Scripture. When He uses them in a natural sense He is talking specifically about the natural Hebrew descendant; when He uses them in a spiritual context He is referring exclusively of the elect of God – God’s true people, those that have entered into salvation by simple faith.

God has joined believing Jews and Gentiles from this New Testament era together with believing Jews and Gentiles from the Old Testament era and made them one in Christ. You see them both being joined together into one spiritual entity.

Mere Israeli blood never saved any man in Scripture, or out of Scripture. Those who attribute God’s favor to those who reject Jesus Christ and the new birth experience have absolutely no understanding of God’s plan of salvation in His Word. Right from the beginning, Christ has always been the focus of man’s hope in the Old Testament. Christ was the only hope of man in the New Testament. There never was, and there never will be, any salvation for any human being outside of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

God uses the terms “Israel,” “circumcision,” “Jews,” Jerusalem, Zion (Sion) and “children of the Abraham” in both a natural earthly sense and a spiritual heavenly sense in Scripture. When He uses them in a natural sense He is talking specifically about the natural Hebrew descendant; when He uses them in a spiritual context He is referring exclusively of the elect of God – God’s true people, those that have entered into salvation by simple faith.

God has joined believing Jews and Gentiles from this New Testament era together with believing Jews and Gentiles from the Old Testament era and made them one in Christ. You see them both being joined together into one spiritual entity.

Mere Israeli blood never saved any man in Scripture, or out of Scripture. Those who attribute God’s favor to those who reject Jesus Christ and the new birth experience have absolutely no understanding of God’s plan of salvation in His Word. Right from the beginning, Christ has always been the focus of man’s hope in the Old Testament. Christ was the only hope of man in the New Testament. There never was, and there never will be, any salvation for any human being outside of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

Christ has always been the focus of man’s hope in the Old Testament.

Because you do not take into consideration time periods you say things that are incorrect one way or the other.
Christ-Messiah....They looked forward to the Messiah, but not like anything that actually happened. They were looking forward to a human warlord king and Elijah would come down in a fiery chariot and introduce him. And he would take out their oppressors during the terrible day of the Lord, establish his kingdom that would last forever and put them in power and make the Mosaic Law the Law of the land and animal sacrifices would go on forever. None of that happened. There is nothing about them being responsible for Yeshua's death. Such and thing would be considered crazy and sacrilegious. For a person to come up to them and say he was the Son of God would be extremely sacrilegious to their beliefs.

No Old Testament scripture or prophecy told of the Son of God coming preaching love and forgiveness. No one is talking about the Messiah saving their souls. If you told a Jew back then that the Messiah was coming to save their souls. They would save from what? The did not believe in Hell or Heaven as a reward. Most of them would be confused with the word soul.

But as it was the Son of God was born of a woman and was the savior of the world. And the blood of Christ did save.

 

[WPM]

Because you do not take into consideration time periods you say things that are incorrect one way or the other.
Christ-Messiah....They looked forward to the Messiah, but not like anything that actually happened. They were looking forward to a human warlord king and Elijah would come down in a fiery chariot and introduce him. And he would take out their oppressors during the terrible day of the Lord, establish his kingdom that would last forever and put them in power and make the Mosaic Law the Law of the land and animal sacrifices would go on forever. None of that happened. There is nothing about them being responsible for Yeshua's death. Such and thing would be considered crazy and sacrilegious. For a person to come up to them and say he was the Son of God would be extremely sacrilegious to their beliefs.

No Old Testament scripture or prophecy told of the Son of God coming preaching love and forgiveness. No one is talking about the Messiah saving their souls. If you told a Jew back then that the Messiah was coming to save their souls. They would save from what? The did not believe in Hell or Heaven as a reward. Most of them would be confused with the word soul.

But as it was the Son of God was born of a woman and was the savior of the world. And the blood of Christ did save.

This was the Pharasaic hope. This was the false hope of apostate Israel. It has not changed today. Elect remnant Israel - true Israel, the Israel of God has always placed its hope in Christ. All men from the beginning either find themselves "in Adam" or "in Christ."

 

[Grailhunter]

This was the Pharasaic hope. This was the false hope of apostate Israel. It has not changed today. Elect remnant Israel - true Israel, the Israel of God has always placed its hope in Christ. All men from the beginning either find themselves "in Adam" or "in Christ."

I am not going to speak to fussy logic.
The Israelites/Jews of the Old Testament were looking for a human Messiah.
The Jews of the biblical period were looking for a human Messiah.
The Jews of today are looking for a human Messiah.

Today Christianity covers the world, not anyone country, certainly has nothing to do with a non-existent Old Testament country.
Christians are the elect.
Again there is no sign in front of a Christian Church that says Israel of God.
Now the modern Israel probably considers their country the Israel of God. They have a stronger argument than you because it exists.

 

[WPM]

I am not going to speak to fussy logic.
The Israelites/Jews of the Old Testament were looking for a human Messiah.
The Jews of the biblical period were looking for a human Messiah.
The Jews of today are looking for a human Messiah.

Today Christianity covers the world, not anyone country, certainly has nothing to do with a non-existent Old Testament country.
Christians are the elect.
Again there is no sign in front of a Christian Church that says Israel of God.
Now the modern Israel probably considers their country the Israel of God. They have a stronger argument than you because it exists.

How does Scripture divide mankind up? How many different spiritual camps are there?

All mankind from the beginning is either found to be in one of two camps – saved or lost. There is no other company. There has never been any other salvation apart from that found “in Christ.” The elect “in Christ" in the Old Testament looked forward to Messiah by faith, the elect “in Christ" in the New Testament look back to Messiah by faith. Those that reject Him are found "in Adam."

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there are only two types of people on planet earth – saved and lost. There are not three types of people in this world – saved, lost and then Israel, as Dispensationalists argue. For that to be true. There will have to be three federal heads. But Scripture makes it clear that there are only two – those “in Adam” and those “in Christ.” Nowhere does it say that there are three, namely, all those “in Adam,” all those “in Moses” and then all those “in Christ” as dispensationalists would have us believe.

Scripture rather breaks all mankind down into one of two groups – those that are saved and those lost, those that are “in Adam” and then those that are “in Christ.” Whilst there may be many ethnic subgroups within these two overall groups, in God’s eyes, there are only two groups.

God does not separate His elect up, He unites them together in Christ.

There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid. It runs completely against the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

 

[Grailhunter]

How does Scripture divide mankind up? How many different spiritual camps are there?

Again, fussy logic.
There are no camps.
Roughly.....
You have the period when Adam and Eve were in Paradise.
As far as religious groups.....really none.
Abraham started the Yahwists. The Abrahamic period. The Abrahamic God was Yahweh.
The period of enslavement in Egypt
The period of the Exodus and laying the foundation of the 613 Mosaic law. The first time Yahweh spoke to the Hebrews as a group. This period included the establishment of the tabernacle and ritualistic animal sacrifices.
Various men lead the Hebrews, including Yacob, renamed Israel.
Then you have the period of the kings. This period notes the Israelites interest in false gods and goddesses.
The period of king continued until the fall of the Israelite kingdom.
From then on they were under subjugation until the fall of the Roman Empire.

In the New Testament Yahweh begot a Son with a human female in order to save humanity.
During His ministry Yeshua introduce the Holy Spirit but did not give the name.
So now we Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.

 

[WPM]

I am not going to speak to fussy logic.
The Israelites/Jews of the Old Testament were looking for a human Messiah.
The Jews of the biblical period were looking for a human Messiah.
The Jews of today are looking for a human Messiah.

Today Christianity covers the world, not anyone country, certainly has nothing to do with a non-existent Old Testament country.
Christians are the elect.
Again there is no sign in front of a Christian Church that says Israel of God.
Now the modern Israel probably considers their country the Israel of God. They have a stronger argument than you because it exists.

Not true! There is nothing greater emphasized in the New Testament than how Christ is heir to all the Old Testament promises and prophecies relating to the promised Messiah. Everything in the Old Testament Scriptures reach their culmination and fulfilment in Jesus. That is why the Apostle could say in 2 Corinthians 1:20, “For all the promises of God in him (Jesus Christ) are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.”

The word translated “yea” in the original Greek means “sure” and the word translated “amen” means “firm.” This is telling us that all God’s promises are sure and firm. They are unchanging, unwavering, and unmovable. Basically, God will keep His Word.

Throughout the ancient pages we repeatedly see it stated that Christ was here to fulfil a foreordained plan. He was indeed a man on a critical mission. Our Lord’s whole life from the cradle to the cross, and thereafter, was a catalogue of confirmations of Old Testament truth. Jesus continually stressed the importance of accomplished prophecy, by stating “It is written” or asking “Have ye not read?” He would then follow this preamble up with a quote from the Hebrew text in order to explain a truth, reinforce a point or prove a realization.

Jesus reveals, in Matthew 13:17, that the old covenant prophets and righteous leaders longed for His day, asserting: “verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” He was the long-anticipated deliver of Israel. Nathanael testified to Philip in John 1:45: “We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Our Lord accomplished every expectation that the Old Testament writers predicted.

Jesus famously rebuked the two downcast disciples on the road to Emmaus on resurrection day, stating: “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?” (Luke 24:25-26). After this, he began to open their eyes to the meaning of the sacred pages. Luke 24:25 records: “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

Despite the fact that these disciples had sat under the teaching of the Lord for 3 ½ years they were still largely ignorant of the full meaning and import of the Old Testament Scriptures. That is why Jesus had to explain the meaning and application of these Old Testament passages to them in detail. He had to show how they spoke about Him. They should have known all this, but didn't because of their human limitations and lack of faith. Because of this they needed Jesus to interpret the ancient Scriptures that referred to Him for them.

Jesus began at the beginning with Moses in the Pentateuch and followed right through to the prophets showing these disciples the things pertaining to Himself, His sufferings and His glory. He revealed the Gospel message in the Old Testament pages. Jesus was not just referring to the Old Testament pages. We often see the descriptive coupling of Moses and the prophets as an alternative description of, and distinction between, the written Word and the spoken Word. That is likely why Moses and Elijah joined Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. They represented both groups and together they pointed to our Redeemer.

Our Savior continues in Luke 24:44-46: “These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day.”

His intent was to confirm that He completed every demand that was made of Him from the ancient inspired pages. His life was the perfect realization of predicted Old Testament prophecy.

 

[WPM]

Again, fussy logic.
There are no camps.
Roughly.....
You have the period when Adam and Eve were in Paradise.
As far as religious groups.....really none.
Abraham started the Yahwists. The Abrahamic period. The Abrahamic God was Yahweh.
The period of enslavement in Egypt
The period of the Exodus and laying the foundation of the 613 Mosaic law. The first time Yahweh spoke to the Hebrews as a group. This period included the establishment of the tabernacle and ritualistic animal sacrifices.
Various men lead the Hebrews, including Yacob, renamed Israel.
Then you have the period of the kings. This period notes the Israelites interest in false gods and goddesses.
The period of king continued until the fall of the Israelite kingdom.
From then on they were under subjugation until the fall of the Roman Empire.

In the New Testament Yahweh begot a Son with a human female in order to save humanity.
During His ministry Yeshua introduce the Holy Spirit but did not give the name.
So now we Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.

It is clear you just make it up as you go. There's no substance to any of your arguments. If you would do your research before opening your mouth you might stop making a fool of yourself with your false claims.

The name Yahweh (YHWH) appears over 6,800 times in the Hebrew Bible. The first textual mention of the divine name Yahweh (YHWH) in the Old Testament occurs in Genesis 2:4, before Abraham was on the scene. YHWH is mentioned 162 times in the book of Genesis.

We should never forget; the outward appearance of God’s people has been a developing organism from the beginning. From Adam to Abraham fellowship between God and His people was practiced globally through individual families, and the worship of God was restricted to the individual family structure. The husband (and father) was considered the priest in the home. Up until Abraham, the relationship between God and His people had no shared ethnic or community status. There was a broad wide-reaching universality to God’s relationship with man. The Tower of Babel altered that.

There is no biblical indication that the people of God before Abraham were a recognized cohesive ethnic society. With God’s selecting of the patriarch to be the father of the faith that all changed. His offspring became an established people-group. That is why every living Jew takes their identity from Abraham.

It was through Abraham that the people of God became a distinct cohesive organized community. His offspring became a recognized company of believers. They were identified as a people of faith. Within this group they could collectively worship God and enjoy close spiritual intimacy with each other. Inside those boundaries God created a means of close spiritual fellowship for His people.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not true! There is nothing greater emphasized in the New Testament than how Christ is heir to all the Old Testament promises and prophecies relating to the promised Messiah. Everything in the Old Testament Scriptures reach their culmination and fulfilment in Jesus. That is why the Apostle could say in 2 Corinthians 1:20, “For all the promises of God in him (Jesus Christ) are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.”

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, ...Romans 3:20....

What I said is true.....call it what you will but Christianity was a shock to the Jews. For the Jews it was more or less a double whammy. For the Messiah to end up being a God and then the religion to be opened up to the Pagans. The Gentile-Christians were never allowed in the temple. In the Old Testament the Mosaic Law called for the annihilation of the Pagans. The kill all that breaths thing. The Mosaic Law forbid treaties with Pagan nations. The terrible day of the Lord was aimed at the Pagan nations.

Paul said---->But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law,
But Christ said---->Jesus explicitly states His relationship to the Law: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them"

As far as I am concerned, the Old Testament confirmed the need for a New Covenant and Christianity.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. Romans 8:7

 

[Grailhunter]

We should never forget; the outward appearance of God’s people has been a developing organism from the beginning. From Adam to Abraham fellowship between God and His people was practiced globally through individual families, and the worship of God was restricted to the individual family structure. The husband (and father) was considered the priest in the home. Up until Abraham, the relationship between God and His people had no shared ethnic or community status. There was a broad wide-reaching universality to God’s relationship with man. The Tower of Babel altered that.

At no time have the Yahwists/Jews ever been more then 2.1% of the world population.

 

[Grailhunter]

It is clear you just make it up as you go. There's no substance to any of your arguments. If you would do your research before opening your mouth you might stop making a fool of yourself with your false claims.

Debating with ignorance is so fun.

 

[Grailhunter]

The name Yahweh (YHWH) appears over 6,800 times in the Hebrew Bible. The first textual mention of the divine name Yahweh (YHWH) in the Old Testament occurs in Genesis 2:4, before Abraham was on the scene. YHWH is mentioned 162 times in the book of Genesis.

True.....and now His name has been replaced with either God or Lord.

 

[Grailhunter]

Throughout the ancient pages we repeatedly see it stated that Christ was here to fulfil a foreordained plan. He was indeed a man on a critical mission. Our Lord’s whole life from the cradle to the cross, and thereafter, was a catalogue of confirmations of Old Testament truth. Jesus continually stressed the importance of accomplished prophecy, by stating “It is written” or asking “Have ye not read?” He would then follow this preamble up with a quote from the Hebrew text in order to explain a truth, reinforce a point or prove a realization.

And in the end Christians do not follow the Mosaic Law.