Born Again

[Eternal Entity]

"You Must Be Born Again"​

As the story goes, a "ruler of the Jews" named Nicodemus came to Jesus under the cover of the night and told Jesus that "they" (who Nicodemus represented) knew he was a teacher of God - basing the knowledge on the observation that no one could do the things these Jesus did, unless God was with him.
Interestingly, Jesus didn't respond by agreeing or thanking Nicodemus. Instead he went straight into telling Nicodemus that "unless one is born again he cannot "see the kingdom of God" which immediately surprised and confused Nicodemus who took the phrase literally and queried how an old man could possibly enter his mothers womb a second time and be born.
Jesus explained that he was not referring to being born again in the manner of a mother giving birth, but of another type of birth. A rebirth which involved something else entirely - yet significantly similar. Being born once gave one, a human experience. Being born again, gave that human an understanding of what The Kingdom of God was. Without that, a human being would not be able to enter into that knowledge.
Jesus then added a mystical phrase about a wilful wind which one can hear but not know where that wind comes from or where it goes, saying that this is what it is like for everyone born again (of the spirit).
Nicodemus still didn't understand and Jesus mentioned the irony of how a learned teacher of Israel could have trouble in understanding what Jesus was saying and pointed out that the witness given to Nicodemus was not received because it was not understood

My understanding of "being born again of the spirit" is that one has to completely disregard everything they ever learned - everything ever told to them as being true or false and start again, through learning from GOD directly.

The conception and gestation period happens first and the time that this takes is specific to each individual. One is not simply born again in an instant.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think we need to read the enirety of the passage.

Nicodemus did ask. How can these things be. And yes. Jesus did say he was suprised how he, a teacher, could not understand these things. And yes. he did say like the wind.

But he said more.

lets take a dive into what Jesus said.

John 3: John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

As moses lifted the serpent.

We first need to stop here. What is Jesus saying? Why did Jesus point to this event that happened in the OT?

1. This is a reference to an OT event where the children of Israel in the wilderness where getting bitten by serpents Which God sent because of their disobedience.
2. They cried out to moses. asking to pray for them.
3. God told moses to make a serpent out of bronze and put it on a pole. He was then to lift that serpent up. Whoever looked at the serpent would not die.
Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
4. Salvation was not just offered to the one who had faith. but to everyone. However, those who believed, looked up to the serpent (a type of Christ) and did not perish. whoever did not. remain condemned to death.

Jesus said in the same way, He must be lifted up (pointing to the cross)

What would happen to those who in faith looked to the cross? What would happen to those who did nto look due to lack of faith?

Jesus continues

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So we see in the same way as in moses day. Those who looked in faith will not die. But unlike them we are told even more. They will never die. and they have eternal life (literally they will live forever)

He continues

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Just as God saved those who looked to the serpent. He will save those who look to the cross. They will not be judged.

Jesus makes it clear in his next statement

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Whoever looks is no longer under condemnation. Whoever does not obey remains in this condemned state. just like those in Moses day. if they did not look, they died.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Another truth.

Those who did not look in moses day did not look because they did not want to humble themselves and admit they were wrong. they did not want to come to the light lest they be saved. so instead they continued to either try to save themselves. or ignore the fact they were dying.


He who humbles himself will come to the light. He exposes himself because he confesses, he is worthy of Death. And this person is saved.

Being born again is instantanious. the momebt one places their faith in Christ. as as John says in the first chapter. recieves him, they are made children of God..

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

 

[Eternal Entity]

Yes - it is interesting how varied interpretations are about the bible.
It is also interesting how you say that Jesus is represented in the serpent (generally believe to represent evil influence) or even the act of creating any graven image and the idea of putting faith in what was behind all of that, and how such symbols represent different things to different people.
I still think that Salvation is a different thing to being born again. Salvation appears to be instantaneous - being born again seems to be something one can attain through learning what and where salvations leads.
But hey, that you and I think differently about this is just what it is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes - it is interesting how varied interpretations are about the bible.
It is also interesting how you say that Jesus is represented in the serpent (generally believe to represent evil influence) or even the act of creating any graven image and the idea of putting faith in what was behind all of that, and how such symbols represent different things to different people.
I still think that Salvation is a different thing to being born again. Salvation appears to be instantaneous - being born again seems to be something one can attain through learning what and where salvations leads.
But hey, that you and I think differently about this is just what it is.

Its interesting that Jesus mentions the serpent. The serpent that was created to save people in Moses day. as representing him and the cross.

Also interesting that Jesus said that this new birth is a one time event.. Not an ongoing event.. Whoever looks will never die.. They will live forever

 

[Eternal Entity]

Yes - it is interesting how varied interpretations are about the bible.
It is also interesting how you say that Jesus is represented in the serpent (generally believe to represent evil influence) or even the act of creating any graven image and the idea of putting faith in what was behind all of that, and how such symbols represent different things to different people.
I still think that Salvation is a different thing to being born again. Salvation might be instantaneous - being born again seems to be something one can attain through learning what and where salvations leads - where the save then proceeds.
Your mention of Moses /serpent part of that might well be Jesus saying that the first birth of the flesh and consequences of that is like the serpent bite - and that the antidote to that is to be born again. The lifting up being the conception and gestation and eventual birth of the new - in birth in spirit. A process rather than instant gratification.

But hey, that you and I think differently about this is just what it is.

 

[Eternal Entity]

Its interesting that Jesus mentions the serpent. The serpent that was created to save people in Moses day. as representing him and the cross.

Yes - my comment wasn't directed at that but at how a serpent was used in Moses time and how the serpent is traditionally a symbol of evil influence. Did something change about that between The Garden and Moses?

Also interesting that Jesus said that this new birth is a one time event.. Not an ongoing event.. Whoever looks will never die.. They will live forever

Living forever is an ongoing event. Do you think that one has no work to do or that the work doesn't matter?

The way I look at it is that we are all born into ignorance and what we learn throughout our life experience influences us so if Jesus was saying to a very learned teacher of Israel that he should be born again, the idea that Jesus meant one should start from scratch isn;t that hard to understand or accept.

 

[Eternal Entity]

Then there is that comment about the Kingdom of God - no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. which signifies that one has to - not only be born of a mother - but also be born again and the entering may be about knowledge - as in one enters knowledge through the process of completely dropping one's initial knowledge gained through human teachers and influences - (which are things that act as gate-keeping devices and do not and cannot teach anyone about the knowledge re the Kingdom of God) which may be why Jesus made a point of pointing out Nicodemus was ignorant of such knowledge which was why Nicodemus found it so difficult to understand what Jesus was on about.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes - my comment wasn't directed at that but at how a serpent was used in Moses time and how the serpent is traditionally a symbol of evil influence. Did something change about that between The Garden and Moses?

I do not question why God did something.. I just read what he says.. Why did he chose a perpent? I just know the results.. If they looked they lived, if they did not they died

Living forever is an ongoing event. Do you think that one has no work to do or that the work doesn't matter?

Well we all will dritual thing. it means we have been made alive and are no longer dead.

The way I look at it is that we are all born into ignorance and what we learn throughout our life experience influences us so if Jesus was saying to a very learned teacher of Israel that he should be born again, the idea that Jesus meant one should start from scratch isn;t that hard to understand or accept.

the problem is it is all or nothing.

You and I can not add to the work of the cross in an attempt to save ourselves.

Jesus was the lamb of God. he died once and those who recieve him will live forever more. Not only will we live forever. but we will not be judged..

John 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

 

[Eternal Entity]

I do not question why God did something..

I do. It helps me to understand.

I just read what he says..

What is reported as being said by...

Why did he chose a perpent? I just know the results.. If they looked they lived, if they did not they died

Symbology is a big aspect of biblical stories and the choice of symbol for that event is significant.

Well we all will dritual thing.

?

it means we have been made alive and are no longer dead.

Are you currently dead?

the problem is it is all or nothing.

Please explain how that relates to my saying "the way I look at it is that we are all born into ignorance and what we learn throughout our life experience influences us so if Jesus was saying to a very learned teacher of Israel that he should be born again, the idea that Jesus meant one should start from scratch isn't that hard to understand or accept."

You and I can not add to the work of the cross in an attempt to save ourselves. Jesus was the lamb of God. he died once and those who recieve him will live forever more. Not only will we live forever. but we will not be judged..

So, are you saying that the act of being born again is simply "being saved" and that there is no requirement to change at all?

John 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.​

How long have you been saved?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do. It helps me to understand.

Thats great. But you still have to agree with

What is reported as being said by...

Symbology is a big aspect of biblical stories and the choice of symbol for that event is significant.

Yes. And the serpent was hung on a pole. and All who believed were saved. Just like Jesus was hung on a pole.. And all who believe are saved.

?

Are you currently dead?

If I am I am in a lost, condemned state.

Please explain how that relates to my saying "the way I look at it is that we are all born into ignorance and what we learn throughout our life experience influences us so if Jesus was saying to a very learned teacher of Israel that he should be born again, the idea that Jesus meant one should start from scratch isn't that hard to understand or accept."

So, are you saying that the act of being born again is simply "being saved" and that there is no requirement to change at all?

The act of born again is being made alive.

Eph 2:
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

How long have you been saved?

50 years

 

[Eternal Entity]

Thats great. But you still have to agree with

One has to understand why one agrees with

Yes. And the serpent was hung on a pole. and All who believed were saved. Just like Jesus was hung on a pole.. And all who believe are saved.

And what were they believing?

If I am I am in a lost, condemned state.

Are you in a lost, condemned state?

The act of born again is being made alive.

The act of being made alive is the relationship with The Father. Just as the act of being made dead is the withdrawal of the direct relationship with The Father

Eph 2:
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Sins are the product of Sin. Sin is having no direct relationship with The Father.

50 years

How long have you had a direct realtioship with The Father?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One has to understand why one agrees with

I do

And what were they believing?

What God promised to them. If they look at the serpent they would not die.

Are you in a lost, condemned state?

If i was I would not be saved

The act of being made alive is the relationship with The Father. Just as the act of being made dead is the withdrawal of the direct relationship with The Father

Sins are the product of Sin. Sin is having no direct relationship with The Father.

How long have you had a direct realtioship with The Father?

This does not make sense. Again I was saved 50 plus years ago..

 

[Eternal Entity]

I do

Okay.

What God promised to them. If they look at the serpent they would not die.

Jesus was pointing to the symbology. While the symbology of the Serpent on a pole may refer only to the crucifiction in your estimate, I think it may be the case that it points to much more than just that.

If i was I would not be saved

Then your answer to my question "Are you currently dead?" would therefore be "no".

This does not make sense.

Since your belief is that being born again is an instantaneous event rather than a process, it explains adequately why it "does not make sense."

Again I was saved 50 plus years ago..

Yes but have you also gone through the born again process that I explained? But you have already answered that you believe these to be the same thing, so your answer would be different from mine.
Since we do not agree on what being Born Again is, what more can we do to further this engagement between us?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay.

Jesus was pointing to the symbology. While the symbology of the Serpent on a pole may refer only to the crucifiction in your estimate, I think it may be the case that it points to much more than just that.

Those in moses day who looked. lived

If we look to jesus today. we will live.

its plain and simple

Then your answer to my question "Are you currently dead?" would therefore be "no".

Since your belief is that being born again is an instantaneous event rather than a process, it explains adequately why it "does not make sense."

So when you were born, Was it a process. or a one time event? How many times have you been born?

Yes but have you also gone through the born again process that I explained? But you have already answered that you believe these to be the same thing, so your answer would be different from mine.

Sadly, yes

Since we do not agree on what being Born Again is, what more can we do to further this engagement between us?

Not sure

 

[Eternal Entity]

Those in moses day who looked. lived

If we look to jesus today. we will live.

its plain and simple

No. Those in Moses day were looking at the serpent.
Jesus is not still hanging.
The symbolism is far more complex.
But, we do not agree and at this point will not agree.

So when you were born, Was it a process. or a one time event?

It was a process. It involved conception and gestation, a seed and an egg and a womb, without which, being born cannot happen.

How many times have you been born?

Of a woman? Once.
As explained, the human experience is designed so that we come into this world blank slate.

Sadly, yes

It is what it is.

Not sure

Okay.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No. Those in Moses day were looking at the serpent.
Jesus is not still hanging.
The symbolism is far more complex.
But, we do not agree and at this point will not agree.

No we will not. because if the serpent did not represent Jesus. Jesus using it as an example makes no ense

It was a process. It involved conception and gestation, a seed and an egg and a womb, without which, being born cannot happen.

Your birth was a one time event. You did not do anything to be born. You were birthed by your mother.

Just like we are birthed by God.

That is what being born again means.

 

[Eternal Entity]

No we will not. because if the serpent did not represent Jesus. Jesus using it as an example makes no ense

It is not about the serpent that we disagree. It is about what the "lifting up" symbolises.
I think it symbolizes more than just the Crucifiction. I think it symbolises Jesus' whole life as the Son of Man before that as well as The Son of God afterward.

Your birth was a one time event. You did not do anything to be born. You were birthed by your mother.

That is semantics and you are using that to downplay what in Truth, I wrote about the processes involved.

Just like we are birthed by God.

Both types of birth are "by God" Both processes are of GOD.
When you were saved, did you experience the blank slate? Did you in effect "renouce" everything you had every been taught and start again from scratch?
Did Nicodemus come to Jesus and ask "what must I do to be saved"?
I do not doubt for one moment that you are saved by the work of - not only the crucification but the work Jesus did prior to that and the work Jesus did subsequently.
I agree with your understanding that being saved is a simply thing.
Our disagreement has to do with being born again and that process.
Being saved is one thing. Being born again is another.

That is what being born again means.

That is what I have been saying.
Being "birthed by GOD" has to do with ones introduction to and ongoing relationship with GOD. Salvation is the doorway - Relationship with GOD (both motherly and fatherly aspects - indeed all aspects) - is "the great outdoors"

Effectively moving from the womb of ones former self into the great wide open through the birth channel.

 

[Eternal Entity]

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

This is KEY.
The "receiving Him" is the salvation. "The right to become" is the born again aspect - the add-on. That which one - throught reciving salvation can become.
John does not say "But as many as received Him, they are therefore children of God"
Look at it this way. Ordinarily an individual receiving Jesus through the witnessing of the recorded events of his life do so regarless of what things have happen to them in their own life up to that point.
To take a very common problem - child abuse - specifically sexual abuse.
One who has suffered this in their childhood, upon being saved - does not instantly heal from that through being saved. (there will be exceptions to this but I am speaking in general terms).Even being saved, they still have the heartache, anger resentment lack of closure et al to deal with. Such things don't just magically disappear. There is work to be done therein.

 

[Soyeong]

"You Must Be Born Again"​

As the story goes, a "ruler of the Jews" named Nicodemus came to Jesus under the cover of the night and told Jesus that "they" (who Nicodemus represented) knew he was a teacher of God - basing the knowledge on the observation that no one could do the things these Jesus did, unless God was with him.
Interestingly, Jesus didn't respond by agreeing or thanking Nicodemus. Instead he went straight into telling Nicodemus that "unless one is born again he cannot "see the kingdom of God" which immediately surprised and confused Nicodemus who took the phrase literally and queried how an old man could possibly enter his mothers womb a second time and be born.
Jesus explained that he was not referring to being born again in the manner of a mother giving birth, but of another type of birth. A rebirth which involved something else entirely - yet significantly similar. Being born once gave one, a human experience. Being born again, gave that human an understanding of what The Kingdom of God was. Without that, a human being would not be able to enter into that knowledge.
Jesus then added a mystical phrase about a wilful wind which one can hear but not know where that wind comes from or where it goes, saying that this is what it is like for everyone born again (of the spirit).
Nicodemus still didn't understand and Jesus mentioned the irony of how a learned teacher of Israel could have trouble in understanding what Jesus was saying and pointed out that the witness given to Nicodemus was not received because it was not understood

My understanding of "being born again of the spirit" is that one has to completely disregard everything they ever learned - everything ever told to them as being true or false and start again, through learning from GOD directly.

The conception and gestation period happens first and the time that this takes is specific to each individual. One is not simply born again in an instant.

A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through embodying their character traits, such as with John 8:39 where Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham then they would be doers of the same works as him. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works be setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so that is what it means for Jesus to be the Son of God and when it means for us to be children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example. This is also why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-14). When we become born again we are reborn as someone who has the character traits of God who embodies those traits through our works by following Christ's example of obedience to the Law of God.

 

[Eternal Entity]

A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through embodying their character traits, such as with John 8:39 where Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham then they would be doers of the same works as him. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works be setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so that is what it means for Jesus to be the Son of God and when it means for us to be children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example. This is also why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-14). When we become born again we are reborn as someone who has the character traits of God who embodies those traits through our works by following Christ's example of obedience to the Law of God.

Greetings Soyeong
Which laws are you speaking of?