Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

[Davidpt]

Scenario: This assumes Amil is reading the texts correctly—that the millennium and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, the following is per an Amil view of things, not a Premil view. Let's start here:

Revelation 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It seems to me—and Amils can correct me if I'm wrong here—this "little season" mentioned means Satan's little season after the millennium. Which then would clearly mean heaven is in sync with what is happening on earth below. In other words, when it is the time of the millennium back on earth, heaven above is in sync with it. When it is the time of satan's little season back on earth, once again, heaven is in sync with it.

No one in heaven is being told to rest yet a millennium until their brethren back on earth, who are to be martyred like they were, are fulfilled first. It does not say that. And that is important, as I will show later. So be sure to keep in mind that it does not say that. It clearly says they are to rest yet a little season.

Let's assume it is now the little season back on earth per this scenario. Thus, the millennium is finished, and no one is any longer reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could they be, if that era of time is entirely finished and in the past at this point? Right?

Obviously, there are going to be Amils who are martyred throughout satan's little season per this scenario. So what happens to them when they enter heaven in a disembodied state? Are they special in God's eyes—like Pretribbers take themselves to be by getting to avoid the Great Tribulation while everyone else faces it head-on? Instead of joining the martyrs resting yet a little season until that little season passes on earth, do they get to sit on thrones and continue reigning with Christ a millennium instead?

How does that logically work? When they are martyred per this scenario, they are not martyred during the millennium; they are martyred during Satan's little season. Therefore, the millennium is no longer relevant at this point. So why then do Amils insist that when Amils die and enter heaven, they continue reigning for the "remainder of the millennium" there? The remainder of the millennium??? What in the world are they talking about???? Per this scenario, like I already pointed out, they are not martyred during the millennium. They are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, there is no remainder of the millennium left for them to finish reigning a thousand years in heaven. And the 5th seal martyrs, for one, prove it.

Apparently, Amils can't even manage to sync these time periods. Instead of having heaven sync with the little season back on earth, they have heaven still involving the time of the millennium, despite the fact that the 5th seal martyrs are synced with the little season back on earth, not the millennium.

Thus the reason for the question in the title of this thread: Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalposts out of it?

Assuming Amils address this rather than derailing the thread and introducing other topics to avoid the question, what should we expect to get? A reasonable explanation that everyone can at least agree is logical? Or will we get gymnastics and moving the goalposts instead?

BTW, if one can't follow what I'm arguing here, I guess it means I need to get an AI to rewrite it just so some of you can follow me. To be honest, regardless of whether I'm the best writer in the world, I fail to see how anyone can't follow what I'm arguing here. In my opinion, this debunks Amil rather than proves it.

EDIT: I did eventually have my orig post formatted. Nothing has changed except the formatting.

 

[Marty fox]

Scenario: This assumes Amil is reading the texts correctly, that the millennium and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, the following is per an Amil view of things not a Premil view of things. Let's then start here.

Revelation 6:9 ¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


It seems to me, and Amils can correct me if I'm wrong here. This little season meant is meaning satan's little season after the millennium. Which then would clearly mean heaven is in sync with what is happening on earth below. IOW, when it is the time of the millennium back on earth, heaven above is in sync with it. When it is the time of satan's little season back on earth, once again heaven is in sync with it.

No one is being told in heaven to rest yet a millennium, until their brethren back on earth, that are to be martyred like they were martyred, is fulfilled first. It does not say that. And that is important, as I will show later. So be sure to keep this in mind that it does not say that. It clearly says they are to rest yet a little season.

Let's assume it is now the little season back on earth, thus the millennium is finished, thus no one is any longer reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could they be if that era of time is entirely finished and in the past at this point? Right?

Obviously, there are going to be Amils that are martyred throughout satan's little season per this scenario. So what happens to them when they enter heaven in a disembodied state? Are they special in God's eyes, like Pretribbers take themselves to be by getting to avoid great tribulation while everyone else to face it head on? That instead of them joining the martyrs resting yet a little season until that little season passes on earth, they get to sit on thrones and continue reigning with Christ a thousand years instead.?

How does that logically work? When they are martyred per this scenario, they are not martyred during the millennium, they are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, the millennium is no longer relevant at this point. So why then do Amils insist that when Amils die and enter heaven they continue reigning the remainder of the millennium there? The remainder of the millennium??? What in the world are they talking about???? Per this scenario, like I already pointed out, they are not martyred during the millennium. they are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, there is no remainder of the millennium for them to finish reigning a thousand years in heaven awaiting them there. And the 5th seal martyrs for one, prove it.

Apparently, Amil can't even manage to sync these time periods, that when it is the time of the little season back on earth, that instead of them having heaven syncing with that, they have heaven still involving the time of the millennium back on earth, despite that the 5th seal martyrs are synced with the little season back on earth not the millennium back on earth.

Thus the reason for the question in the title of this thread---Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

Assuming Amils address this rather than derailing the thread and introducing other topics to avoid addressing this, what should we expect we are going to get? A reasonable explanation everyone can at least agree with, that it is reasonable? Or this instead---gymnastics and moving the goalpost?

BTW, if one can't follow what I'm arguing here, I guess it means I need to get an AI to rewrite what I'm arguing in order than some of you can follow me. TBH, regardless that I'm not the best writer in the world, I fail to see how anyone can't follow what I'm arguing here, where, IMO, debunks Amil not proves it.

I'll address this in two post to keep it simpler because you are trying to bring two events into one.

You should have an idea on this because I have mentioned this to your multiple times, there is a 1000-year binding and a 1000 year reigning they are separate its not one because of the other.

Jesus doesn't reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God. The reigning doesn't end when the binding ends when satan is released it ends as Rev 20:5 says at the end of our world on the white throne judgement day when the rest of the dead rise

 

[Marty fox]

Scenario: This assumes Amil is reading the texts correctly, that the millennium and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, the following is per an Amil view of things not a Premil view of things. Let's then start here.

Revelation 6:9 ¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


It seems to me, and Amils can correct me if I'm wrong here. This little season meant is meaning satan's little season after the millennium. Which then would clearly mean heaven is in sync with what is happening on earth below. IOW, when it is the time of the millennium back on earth, heaven above is in sync with it. When it is the time of satan's little season back on earth, once again heaven is in sync with it.

No one is being told in heaven to rest yet a millennium, until their brethren back on earth, that are to be martyred like they were martyred, is fulfilled first. It does not say that. And that is important, as I will show later. So be sure to keep this in mind that it does not say that. It clearly says they are to rest yet a little season.

Let's assume it is now the little season back on earth, thus the millennium is finished, thus no one is any longer reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could they be if that era of time is entirely finished and in the past at this point? Right?

Obviously, there are going to be Amils that are martyred throughout satan's little season per this scenario. So what happens to them when they enter heaven in a disembodied state? Are they special in God's eyes, like Pretribbers take themselves to be by getting to avoid great tribulation while everyone else to face it head on? That instead of them joining the martyrs resting yet a little season until that little season passes on earth, they get to sit on thrones and continue reigning with Christ a thousand years instead.?

How does that logically work? When they are martyred per this scenario, they are not martyred during the millennium, they are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, the millennium is no longer relevant at this point. So why then do Amils insist that when Amils die and enter heaven they continue reigning the remainder of the millennium there? The remainder of the millennium??? What in the world are they talking about???? Per this scenario, like I already pointed out, they are not martyred during the millennium. they are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, there is no remainder of the millennium for them to finish reigning a thousand years in heaven awaiting them there. And the 5th seal martyrs for one, prove it.

Apparently, Amil can't even manage to sync these time periods, that when it is the time of the little season back on earth, that instead of them having heaven syncing with that, they have heaven still involving the time of the millennium back on earth, despite that the 5th seal martyrs are synced with the little season back on earth not the millennium back on earth.

Thus the reason for the question in the title of this thread---Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

Assuming Amils address this rather than derailing the thread and introducing other topics to avoid addressing this, what should we expect we are going to get? A reasonable explanation everyone can at least agree with, that it is reasonable? Or this instead---gymnastics and moving the goalpost?

BTW, if one can't follow what I'm arguing here, I guess it means I need to get an AI to rewrite what I'm arguing in order than some of you can follow me. TBH, regardless that I'm not the best writer in the world, I fail to see how anyone can't follow what I'm arguing here, where, IMO, debunks Amil not proves it.

You are assuming that Rev 6:9-11 is satans little season but thats not a fact.

When the saints ask "how long O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Does that sound like a short season or have they been waiting for quite a while?

These I believe are those who were martyred by apostate Israel and history shows that they were judged for being the first persecuters of the church

 

[WPM]

Scenario: This assumes Amil is reading the texts correctly, that the millennium and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, the following is per an Amil view of things not a Premil view of things. Let's then start here.

Revelation 6:9 ¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


It seems to me, and Amils can correct me if I'm wrong here. This little season meant is meaning satan's little season after the millennium. Which then would clearly mean heaven is in sync with what is happening on earth below. IOW, when it is the time of the millennium back on earth, heaven above is in sync with it. When it is the time of satan's little season back on earth, once again heaven is in sync with it.

No one is being told in heaven to rest yet a millennium, until their brethren back on earth, that are to be martyred like they were martyred, is fulfilled first. It does not say that. And that is important, as I will show later. So be sure to keep this in mind that it does not say that. It clearly says they are to rest yet a little season.

Let's assume it is now the little season back on earth, thus the millennium is finished, thus no one is any longer reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could they be if that era of time is entirely finished and in the past at this point? Right?

Obviously, there are going to be Amils that are martyred throughout satan's little season per this scenario. So what happens to them when they enter heaven in a disembodied state? Are they special in God's eyes, like Pretribbers take themselves to be by getting to avoid great tribulation while everyone else to face it head on? That instead of them joining the martyrs resting yet a little season until that little season passes on earth, they get to sit on thrones and continue reigning with Christ a thousand years instead.?

How does that logically work? When they are martyred per this scenario, they are not martyred during the millennium, they are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, the millennium is no longer relevant at this point. So why then do Amils insist that when Amils die and enter heaven they continue reigning the remainder of the millennium there? The remainder of the millennium??? What in the world are they talking about???? Per this scenario, like I already pointed out, they are not martyred during the millennium. they are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, there is no remainder of the millennium for them to finish reigning a thousand years in heaven awaiting them there. And the 5th seal martyrs for one, prove it.

Apparently, Amil can't even manage to sync these time periods, that when it is the time of the little season back on earth, that instead of them having heaven syncing with that, they have heaven still involving the time of the millennium back on earth, despite that the 5th seal martyrs are synced with the little season back on earth not the millennium back on earth.

Thus the reason for the question in the title of this thread---Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

Assuming Amils address this rather than derailing the thread and introducing other topics to avoid addressing this, what should we expect we are going to get? A reasonable explanation everyone can at least agree with, that it is reasonable? Or this instead---gymnastics and moving the goalpost?

BTW, if one can't follow what I'm arguing here, I guess it means I need to get an AI to rewrite what I'm arguing in order than some of you can follow me. TBH, regardless that I'm not the best writer in the world, I fail to see how anyone can't follow what I'm arguing here, where, IMO, debunks Amil not proves it.

Revelation is definitely not a single unfolding sequence of historic events from start to finish. There are many parts of the book that do not run in a linear fashion. It is a series of recaps. It involves a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period from God’s perspective. It unveils a number of distinct visions relating to concurrent events given in a symbolic manner covering the same time period in between the First and Second Advents. This sequence of inspired figurative visions point to the spiritual reality of the victorious rule of Christ over intra-Advent events. Some of these events are looking back, some of these are looking forward. Some of these are currently ongoing.

Revelation lays out its own unique format, letting us know the beginning and ending of each recapitulation. It also shows us the parts that are parenthetical, and gives common and consistent points of reference between the various portions of the book.

Revelation 6:9-17 reinforces Amil: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season [Gr. mikros chronos], until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The 6th seal is the second coming. The opening of this 5th seal precedes the coming of Christ and the end of the world, just like Revelation 20:11-15. This describes a harsh time of persecution and tribulation that finally ushers in the return of Christ. This corresponds with Revelation 20:3, 7-15

Revelation 20:3, 7-15: "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season ... And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the bookof life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

The second coming follows Satan's little season. Satan has his little season, and is then destroyed at the second coming. When Jesus comes after Satan's little season the wicked are destroyed. The corrupt earth flees at His appearance. It is then that all men are finally and eternally judged. The resurrection of the dead occurs after Satan's little season, not before it. This correlates with numerous second coming passages that show it to be the end. This totally forbids your theological thesis.

 

[Davidpt]

You are assuming that Rev 6:9-11 is satans little season but thats not a fact.

When the saints ask "how long O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Does that sound like a short season or have they been waiting for quite a while?

These I believe are those who were martyred by apostate Israel and history shows that they were judged for being the first persecuters of the church

I'm assuming some Amils take it to mean that, but Preterist Amils might not be. I get that. Plus I offered to be corrected if I was wrong about that. A Preterist Amil reading of things makes even less sense to me than a typical Amil reading does, such as @WPM holds, for example.

 

[Marty fox]

I'm assuming some Amils take it to mean that, but Preterist Amils might not be. I get that. Plus I offered to be corrected if I was wrong about that. A Preterist Amil reading of things makes even less sense to me than a typical Amil reading does, such as @WPM holds, for example.

I'm a partial preterist amil

 

[Davidpt]

I'll address this in two post to keep it simpler because you are trying to bring two events into one.

You should have an idea on this because I have mentioned this to your multiple times, there is a 1000-year binding and a 1000 year reigning they are separate its not one because of the other.

Jesus doesn't reign because satan is bound Jesus reigns because He is God. The reigning doesn't end when the binding ends when satan is released it ends as Rev 20:5 says at the end of our world on the white throne judgement day when the rest of the dead rise

Let's try an analogy here. 33 AD to 2040 AD = reigning during the thousand years. satan's little season begins sometime in 2040 AD, and let's assume it involves several years. Now explain how someone can still be reigning a thousand years between 33 AD to 2040 AD, in 2043 AD. Provide a real world example that proves that point. If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD (during satan's little season), how can they enter heaven and reign during the era of 33 AD to 2040 AD when that era has already been over for three years? Explain that one while you are at it.

This grants a 1000 years is symbolic of the past 2K years, thus the church age. Except it doesn't matter if it's a literal thousand years or not. It still has to occur during an era of time, whether before the 2nd coming or after.

A better analogy might be this. Between 1970 and 1980 John grows 10 years older and reaches 30 years of age in 1980. Now explain how John can still be approaching 30 years of age in 1982?

Apparently, you fail to grasp that when an era of time is in the past, it means that era of time is finished. Nowhere in Rev 20 does it say anyone reigns with Christ a thousand years and a little season. We are to go by what the text says. Not what it doesn't say.

The way you are going about reasoning things would be like insisting when a US President finishes a 4 or 8 year term, and a new President is elected, this means the former President is still the President while this newly elected President is President instead.. There is no way you are going to be able to come up with a real world example that proves your point. You can try though, I guess.

 

[Davidpt]

I'm a partial preterist amil

I know. What I'm basically meaning by Preterist is Partial Preterist, thus not to be confused with Full Preterism. If I'm meaning full I usually come right out and call it what it is. But let's be honest here. Full Preterism is not really that much of a thing anymore. Sure, there are still Full ones out there. But in these forums what's predominantly being advanced is Partial Preterism. Thus Full doesn't come to mind that often.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation is definitely not a single unfolding sequence of historic events from start to finish. There are many parts of the book that do not run in a linear fashion. It is a series of recaps. It involves a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period from God’s perspective. It unveils a number of distinct visions relating to concurrent events given in a symbolic manner covering the same time period in between the First and Second Advents. This sequence of inspired figurative visions point to the spiritual reality of the victorious rule of Christ over intra-Advent events. Some of these events are looking back, some of these are looking forward. Some of these are currently ongoing.

Revelation lays out its own unique format, letting us know the beginning and ending of each recapitulation. It also shows us the parts that are parenthetical, and gives common and consistent points of reference between the various portions of the book.

Revelation 6:9-17 reinforces Amil: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season [Gr. mikros chronos], until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The 6th seal is the second coming. The opening of this 5th seal precedes the coming of Christ and the end of the world, just like Revelation 20:11-15. This describes a harsh time of persecution and tribulation that finally ushers in the return of Christ. This corresponds with Revelation 20:3, 7-15

Revelation 20:3, 7-15: "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season ... And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the bookof life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

The second coming follows Satan's little season. Satan has his little season, and is then destroyed at the second coming. When Jesus comes after Satan's little season the wicked are destroyed. The corrupt earth flees at His appearance. It is then that all men are finally and eternally judged. The resurrection of the dead occurs after Satan's little season, not before it. This correlates with numerous second coming passages that show it to be the end. This totally forbids your theological thesis.

You wrote a very long post explaining the concept of recapitulation, which I already factored into my OP scenario. You spent 90% of your time proving that the"little season of the 5th Seal is the exact same event as satan's little season in Revelation 20, leading right up to the 2nd coming.


I completely agree with you on that if coming from an Amil perspective. But you completely missed or avoided the actual problem I presented.

By syncing the 5th seal martyrs with satan's little season in Revelation 20, you have completely trapped your own position. Think about the timeline here---According to Amil, the 1,000 years is a symbolic era (the church age) that ends when satan's little season begins. Therefore, by the time we reach the little season of the 5th seal, the millennium is entirely in the past. It is over. Finished.

So let's use a real world chronological analogy to see if you can grasp the logical contradiction, one that I already used with Marty---Let's assume the symbolic millennium runs from 33 AD to 2040 AD. In the year 2040 AD, the millennium expires, and satan's little season begins. We are now in the year 2043 AD, right in the midst of the 5th seal persecution you just described.

Obviously, there are saints being martyred on earth in the year 2043 AD. When those 2043 AD martyrs die and enter heaven in a disembodied state, what happens to them?

According to standard Amil theology, when a believer dies, they go to heaven to sit on thrones and reign with Christ a thousand years (Rev 20:4).

But how in the world can a saint martyred in 2043 AD enter heaven and reign during the era of 33 AD to 2040 AD, when that era has already been finished and over with for three years at this point?

Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it say anyone reigns with Christ for a thousand years and a little season. It says they reign for the thousand years. But per your own recap setup, these late stage martyrs weren't killed during the millennium---they were killed during the little season.

So I will ask you the same direct question I asked Marty, and I expect an answer without gymnastics or moving the goalposts.

If a saint is martyred during the little season (2043 AD per this scenario),well this means they already reigned with Christ a thousand years during the era of time between 30 AD and 2040 AD. Except none of these die during 33 AD and 2040 AD. How then can they finish the thousand year reign in heaven when they die in 2043, when they already finished that reign while they were still alive? Therefore, how can they enter heaven in disembodied state in 2043, then sit on thrones ruling with Christ rather than joining the martyrs under the altar that continue to rest? At least it's not contradicting that they are still reigning with Christ a thousand years in heaven during the little season back on earth.

Amils and Pretribbers have a lot in common, it seems. Both groups apparently see themselves being more special to God than some of His other saints are. God plays favorites with these 2 groups, apparently. Amil martyrs get to sit on thrones and rule with Christ when they enter heaven in a disembodied state. Even if they are martyred after the millennium, which is already a contradiction to begin with. The martyrs per the 5th seal are not as elitist it seems . They have to rest not reign with, until the little season on earth passes.

If you want to here something really funny, picture this. Before Amils' proposed little season, Pretribbers are already bodily in heaven. Then when an Amil is martyred during the little season the Pretribbers missed out on, the amil remains in a disembodied state while the Pretriber is already in a immortal bodily state. And instead of someone in an immortal bodily state sitting on thrones ruling with Christ, Pretribbers in this case, it is the ones still in a disembodied state that do. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Marty fox]

Let's try an analogy here. 33 AD to 2040 AD = reigning during the thousand years. satan's little season begins sometime in 2040 AD, and let's assume it involves several years. Now explain how someone can still be reigning a thousand years between 33 AD to 2040 AD, in 2043 AD. Provide a real world example that proves that point. If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD (during satan's little season), how can they enter heaven and reign during the era of 33 AD to 2040 AD when that era has already been over for three years? Explain that one while you are at it.

This grants a 1000 years is symbolic of the past 2K years, thus the church age. Except it doesn't matter if it's a literal thousand years or not. It still has to occur during an era of time, whether before the 2nd coming or after.

A better analogy might be this. Between 1970 and 1980 John grows 10 years older and reaches 30 years of age in 1980. Now explain how John can still be approaching 30 years of age in 1982?

Apparently, you fail to grasp that when an era of time is in the past, it means that era of time is finished. Nowhere in Rev 20 does it say anyone reigns with Christ a thousand years and a little season. We are to go by what the text says. Not what it doesn't say.

The way you are going about reasoning things would be like insisting when a US President finishes a 4 or 8 year term, and a new President is elected, this means the former President is still the President while this newly elected President is President instead.. There is no way you are going to be able to come up with a real world example that proves your point. You can try though, I guess.

Read my post again I explained it

The reigning and the binding are different sets of thousand years they are nothing to do with each other, it’s no one because of the other. Jesus isn’t reigning because satan is bound Jesus is rei because He is God

The binding ends in verse 7 the reigning ends at the end of our world after satans short season

 

[WPM]

You wrote a very long post explaining the concept of recapitulation, which I already factored into my OP scenario. You spent 90% of your time proving that the"little season of the 5th Seal is the exact same event as satan's little season in Revelation 20, leading right up to the 2nd coming.


I completely agree with you on that if coming from an Amil perspective. But you completely missed or avoided the actual problem I presented.

By syncing the 5th seal martyrs with satan's little season in Revelation 20, you have completely trapped your own position. Think about the timeline here---According to Amil, the 1,000 years is a symbolic era (the church age) that ends when satan's little season begins. Therefore, by the time we reach the little season of the 5th seal, the millennium is entirely in the past. It is over. Finished.

So let's use a real world chronological analogy to see if you can grasp the logical contradiction, one that I already used with Marty---Let's assume the symbolic millennium runs from 33 AD to 2040 AD. In the year 2040 AD, the millennium expires, and satan's little season begins. We are now in the year 2043 AD, right in the midst of the 5th seal persecution you just described.

Obviously, there are saints being martyred on earth in the year 2043 AD. When those 2043 AD martyrs die and enter heaven in a disembodied state, what happens to them?

According to standard Amil theology, when a believer dies, they go to heaven to sit on thrones and reign with Christ a thousand years (Rev 20:4).

But how in the world can a saint martyred in 2043 AD enter heaven and reign during the era of 33 AD to 2040 AD, when that era has already been finished and over with for three years at this point?

Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it say anyone reigns with Christ for a thousand years and a little season. It says they reign for the thousand years. But per your own recap setup, these late stage martyrs weren't killed during the millennium---they were killed during the little season.

So I will ask you the same direct question I asked Marty, and I expect an answer without gymnastics or moving the goalposts.

If a saint is martyred during the little season (2043 AD per this scenario),well this means they already reigned with Christ a thousand years during the era of time between 30 AD and 2040 AD. Except none of these die during 33 AD and 2040 AD. How then can they finish the thousand year reign in heaven when they die in 2043, when they already finished that reign while they were still alive? Therefore, how can they enter heaven in disembodied state in 2043, then sit on thrones ruling with Christ rather than joining the martyrs under the altar that continue to rest? At least it's not contradicting that they are still reigning with Christ a thousand years in heaven during the little season back on earth.

Amils and Pretribbers have a lot in common, it seems. Both groups apparently see themselves being more special to God than some of His other saints are. God plays favorites with these 2 groups, apparently. Amil martyrs get to sit on thrones and rule with Christ when they enter heaven in a disembodied state. Even if they are martyred after the millennium, which is already a contradiction to begin with. The martyrs per the 5th seal are not as elitist it seems . They have to rest not reign with, until the little season on earth passes.

Sorry, this is all gibberish to me. I do not know what you're trying to say. What is your point? This in unintelligible?

 

[Davidpt]

Sorry, this is all gibberish to me. I do not know what you're trying to say. What is your point? This in unintelligible?

It was the core timeline argument, and it is basic chronological logic.
Let's strip it down to the bare bones so you can't claim it's unintelligible:

Era 1---The Millennium (e.g., 33 AD to 2040 AD). Amils reign with Christ.

Era 2---satan's little season (e.g., 2040 AD to 2045 AD). satan is loosed.


If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD, they are killed during Era 2 (the little season). By definition, Era 1 (the millennium) is completely over and in the past.

My direct question is this---when that 2043 AD martyr enters heaven, how can they reign with Christ for a millennium that has already been over for three years? One that they already finished while they were still alive. Were they not still alive per this scenario in 2040 AD when the millennium ended and satan's little season began?

It's not gibberish. It's a massive contradiction in your timeline. Do you have an answer for it, or are you just going to keep calling it unintelligible to avoid it? I have you trapped and you know it. The only way out of this trap In your opinion is to insist my post is gibberish. That way you don't have to admit Amil is wrong.

You remind of a dude I used to work with when I poured concrete when I was in my late teens. This dude was probably 40 and was built like an ox. We used to have a beer in a local tavern after work, and that arm wrestling was a thing back then. So he and I locked arms and I was literally taking him down but he wouldn't let me win. He said he had to get home because he was already late for supper. I guess it was embarrassing for him that an older teen could take down someone his size and age. The comparison between you two are the lame excuses you both come up with. Now you are pretending that I'm simply speaking in Chinese except you don't speak that language. You are not fooling anybody with a brain, though. You understood me perfectly, and you and I know it.

 

[Davidpt]

Read my post again I explained it

The reigning and the binding are different sets of thousand years they are nothing to do with each other, it’s no one because of the other. Jesus isn’t reigning because satan is bound Jesus is rei because He is God

The binding ends in verse 7 the reigning ends at the end of our world after satans short season

You are completely inventing things that are nowhere to be found in the text. Where does Revelation 20 say there are two different sets of a thousand years? It doesn't.

You are inventing a second millennium out of thin air to escape a logical trap.

Let's apply your logic back to the real world using the presidential analogy I gave you earlier.

Imagine a US President is elected to a fixed 4 year term. During those 4 years, two things happen simultaneously. The President signs laws. The President lives in the White House.

According to your logic, when the 4 years expire and a new President moves in, the former President is somehow still living in the White House because living in the White House and signing laws are two different sets of 4 years. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Revelation 20:2-4 gives one singular timeframe---the thousand years. satan is bound for that thousand years, and the martyred saints reign with Christ for that exact same thousand years.

If the binding ends in verse 7 because the thousand years are expired, then the era of the thousand years is legally over. You cannot claim the reigning keeps going for newly martyred saints in the year 2043 AD per that one analogy I was using, because the era of the thousand years already closed in 2040 AD.

Premil doesn't involve convoluted gymnastics like this. Per a Premil view, when the millennium ends, it simply means the ruling with a rod of iron is no longer being enforced, which allows for the testing of the nations that follows. The chronological order is straight and simple.

You are forcing a massive contradiction onto the text. If a saint is martyred during the little season, the millennium is over. They cannot enter heaven to reign for a thousand years in an era that has already expired. Maybe in the Twilight Zone they can. But in the real world they can't

 

[Marty fox]

It was the core timeline argument, and it is basic chronological logic.
Let's strip it down to the bare bones so you can't claim it's unintelligible:

Era 1---The Millennium (e.g., 33 AD to 2040 AD). Amils reign with Christ.

Era 2---satan's little season (e.g., 2040 AD to 2045 AD). satan is loosed.


If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD, they are killed during Era 2 (the little season). By definition, Era 1 (the millennium) is completely over and in the past.

My direct question is this---when that 2043 AD martyr enters heaven, how can they reign with Christ for a millennium that has already been over for three years? One that they already finished while they were still alive. Were they not still alive per this scenario in 2040 AD when the millennium ended and satan's little season began?

It's not gibberish. It's a massive contradiction in your timeline. Do you have an answer for it, or are you just going to keep calling it unintelligible to avoid it? I have you trapped and you know it. The only way out of this trap In your opinion is to insist my post is gibberish. That way you don't have to admit Amil is wrong.

You remind of a dude I used to work with when I poured concrete when I was in my late teens. This dude was probably 40 and was built like an ox. We used to have a beer in a local tavern after work, and that arm wrestling was a thing back then. So he and I locked arms and I was literally taking him down but he wouldn't let me win. He said he had to get home because he was already late for supper. I guess it was embarrassing for him that an older teen could take down someone his size and age. The comparison between you two are the lame excuses you both come up with. Now you are pretending that I'm simply speaking in Chinese except you don't speak that language. You are not fooling anybody with a brain, though. You understood me perfectly, and you and I know it.

You haven’t trapped anyone, I already answered this, the thousand year reign isn’t over just because satan is released, your giving satan more credit than Jesus

 

[Marty fox]

You are completely inventing things that are nowhere to be found in the text. Where does Revelation 20 say there are two different sets of a thousand years? It doesn't.

You are inventing a second millennium out of thin air to escape a logical trap.

Let's apply your logic back to the real world using the presidential analogy I gave you earlier.

Imagine a US President is elected to a fixed 4 year term. During those 4 years, two things happen simultaneously. The President signs laws. The President lives in the White House.

According to your logic, when the 4 years expire and a new President moves in, the former President is somehow still living in the White House because living in the White House and signing laws are two different sets of 4 years. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Revelation 20:2-4 gives one singular timeframe---the thousand years. satan is bound for that thousand years, and the martyred saints reign with Christ for that exact same thousand years.

If the binding ends in verse 7 because the thousand years are expired, then the era of the thousand years is legally over. You cannot claim the reigning keeps going for newly martyred saints in the year 2043 AD per that one analogy I was using, because the era of the thousand years already closed in 2040 AD.

Premil doesn't involve convoluted gymnastics like this. Per a Premil view, when the millennium ends, it simply means the ruling with a rod of iron is no longer being enforced, which allows for the testing of the nations that follows. The chronological order is straight and simple.

You are forcing a massive contradiction onto the text. If a saint is martyred during the little season, the millennium is over. They cannot enter heaven to reign for a thousand years in an era that has already expired. Maybe in the Twilight Zone they can. But in the real world they can't

How many times can I explain it.

1-The thousand year binding starts at the cross

2-The thousand year reign starts at the cross

3-The thousand year binding ends when satan is released in verse 7

4-The thousand year reign ends at the great white throne judgement which is after satan is released and then defeated

We know this because verse 5 states that the rest of the dead (the unsaved) come back to life after the thousand year reig and we see them come back to life at the great white throne judgement in verses 11-12

Ask yourself why do the saints reign? Could satan really prevent Jesus from reignin?

You ask for answers to your questions but you don’t really want to hear them

 

[WPM]

It was the core timeline argument, and it is basic chronological logic.
Let's strip it down to the bare bones so you can't claim it's unintelligible:

Era 1---The Millennium (e.g., 33 AD to 2040 AD). Amils reign with Christ.

Era 2---satan's little season (e.g., 2040 AD to 2045 AD). satan is loosed.


If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD, they are killed during Era 2 (the little season). By definition, Era 1 (the millennium) is completely over and in the past.

My direct question is this---when that 2043 AD martyr enters heaven, how can they reign with Christ for a millennium that has already been over for three years? One that they already finished while they were still alive. Were they not still alive per this scenario in 2040 AD when the millennium ended and satan's little season began?

It's not gibberish. It's a massive contradiction in your timeline. Do you have an answer for it, or are you just going to keep calling it unintelligible to avoid it? I have you trapped and you know it. The only way out of this trap In your opinion is to insist my post is gibberish. That way you don't have to admit Amil is wrong.

You remind of a dude I used to work with when I poured concrete when I was in my late teens. This dude was probably 40 and was built like an ox. We used to have a beer in a local tavern after work, and that arm wrestling was a thing back then. So he and I locked arms and I was literally taking him down but he wouldn't let me win. He said he had to get home because he was already late for supper. I guess it was embarrassing for him that an older teen could take down someone his size and age. The comparison between you two are the lame excuses you both come up with. Now you are pretending that I'm simply speaking in Chinese except you don't speak that language. You are not fooling anybody with a brain, though. You understood me perfectly, and you and I know it.

Keep your insults and belittling to yourself or I will ignore your posts.

The Op does not make sense. It is like saying: the American people have enjoyed freedom for 250 years, but you are excluding everyone born in this last 20 years because they have not been alive for the duration.

 

[Davidpt]

How many times can I explain it.

1-The thousand year binding starts at the cross

2-The thousand year reign starts at the cross

3-The thousand year binding ends when satan is released in verse 7

4-The thousand year reign ends at the great white throne judgement which is after satan is released and then defeated

We know this because verse 5 states that the rest of the dead (the unsaved) come back to life after the thousand year reig and we see them come back to life at the great white throne judgement in verses 11-12

Ask yourself why do the saints reign? Could satan really prevent Jesus from reignin?

You ask for answers to your questions but you don’t really want to hear them

You are completely shifting the goalposts and changing the clear definitions of words to avoid the trap you are in. Don't accuse me of giving satan credit just because your chronological timeline doesn't make logical sense.


Let's look at your 4 point list and blow it completely out of the water using basic grammar.


You admit that both the binding and the reigning start at the exact same event (the cross). You also admit that the binding ends in verse 7 because the thousand years are expired and fulfilled.

If the thousand years are expired and fulfilled in verse 7, then the era of the thousand years is over. Done. Finished.

Yet, you claim in point 4 that the thousand year reign keeps going through the little season. This means you are forcing the exact same phrase---the thousand years---to mean two completely different lengths of time in the exact same chapter!

Let's go back to my presidential analogy since you are still trying to dodge it.

Imagine a US President takes office. Two things start at the exact same moment.


The President's 4 year term.

The President's residency in the White House.

According to your logic, when the 4 years are expired, the President leaves office, but he gets to stay in the White House for another 6 months because his residency doesn't end just because his term ended. That is absolute nonsense.

You brought up verse 5---the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Thank you for proving my point. Verse 5 tells us that the resurrection happens WHEN the thousand years are finished. But your timeline claims the resurrection happens at the end of the world, after the little season is finished.

If the little season takes 3 years (e.g., 2040 AD to 2043 AD), then by your logic, the resurrection is happening 3 years after the thousand years were finished. But verse 5 doesn't say after the little season, it says until the thousand years were finished. You are directly contradicting verse 5.

So my question stands completely untouched, and no amount of spiritualizing or emotional deflection changes it.

If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD (during the little season), they are entering heaven three years after the thousand years were finished (per verse 5) and expired (per verse 7). How can they enter heaven and reign during an era of time that has already been finished and expired for three years?

Premil doesn't have to break basic grammar or invent double meanings for time periods like this. Face the timeline logic honestly instead of telling me I don't want answers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scenario: This assumes Amil is reading the texts correctly—that the millennium and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, the following is per an Amil view of things, not a Premil view. Let's start here:



It seems to me—and Amils can correct me if I'm wrong here—this "little season" mentioned means Satan's little season after the millennium. Which then would clearly mean heaven is in sync with what is happening on earth below. In other words, when it is the time of the millennium back on earth, heaven above is in sync with it. When it is the time of satan's little season back on earth, once again, heaven is in sync with it.

No one in heaven is being told to rest yet a millennium until their brethren back on earth, who are to be martyred like they were, are fulfilled first. It does not say that. And that is important, as I will show later. So be sure to keep in mind that it does not say that. It clearly says they are to rest yet a little season.

Let's assume it is now the little season back on earth per this scenario. Thus, the millennium is finished, and no one is any longer reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could they be, if that era of time is entirely finished and in the past at this point? Right?

Obviously, there are going to be Amils who are martyred throughout satan's little season per this scenario. So what happens to them when they enter heaven in a disembodied state? Are they special in God's eyes—like Pretribbers take themselves to be by getting to avoid the Great Tribulation while everyone else faces it head-on? Instead of joining the martyrs resting yet a little season until that little season passes on earth, do they get to sit on thrones and continue reigning with Christ a millennium instead?

How does that logically work? When they are martyred per this scenario, they are not martyred during the millennium; they are martyred during Satan's little season. Therefore, the millennium is no longer relevant at this point. So why then do Amils insist that when Amils die and enter heaven, they continue reigning for the "remainder of the millennium" there? The remainder of the millennium??? What in the world are they talking about???? Per this scenario, like I already pointed out, they are not martyred during the millennium. They are martyred during satan's little season. Therefore, there is no remainder of the millennium left for them to finish reigning a thousand years in heaven. And the 5th seal martyrs, for one, prove it.

What in the world is all this nonsense about? It make not even a tiny bit of sense. You can't refute Amil in any straightforward way, so you go out of your way to come up with ludicrous gibberish like this. Why? What difference does it make if someone is martyred during the thousand years or during Satan's little season? Being martyred is being martyred, isn't it? I can't make any sense out of what point you're trying to make here at all.

Apparently, Amils can't even manage to sync these time periods.

Apparently, you like to make claims that you can't back up.

Instead of having heaven sync with the little season back on earth, they have heaven still involving the time of the millennium, despite the fact that the 5th seal martyrs are synced with the little season back on earth, not the millennium.

No idea what you're saying here.

Thus the reason for the question in the title of this thread: Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalposts out of it?

Only if you can actually explain what you're talking about in this post. I truly have no idea.

Assuming Amils address this rather than derailing the thread and introducing other topics to avoid the question, what should we expect to get? A reasonable explanation that everyone can at least agree is logical? Or will we get gymnastics and moving the goalposts instead?

BTW, if one can't follow what I'm arguing here,

Raises hand.

I guess it means I need to get an AI to rewrite it just so some of you can follow me.

Maybe so. Give it a shot and let's see what it comes up with.

To be honest, regardless of whether I'm the best writer in the world, I fail to see how anyone can't follow what I'm arguing here.

LOL. Hilarious. Of course you would fail to see it. Do you just spend the whole day trying to imagine scenarios where you can trip up Amils? You can't do it any other way than coming up with something like this?

In my opinion, this debunks Amil rather than proves it.

What does exactly?

 

[WPM]

You are completely inventing things that are nowhere to be found in the text. Where does Revelation 20 say there are two different sets of a thousand years? It doesn't.

You are inventing a second millennium out of thin air to escape a logical trap.

Let's apply your logic back to the real world using the presidential analogy I gave you earlier.

Imagine a US President is elected to a fixed 4 year term. During those 4 years, two things happen simultaneously. The President signs laws. The President lives in the White House.

According to your logic, when the 4 years expire and a new President moves in, the former President is somehow still living in the White House because living in the White House and signing laws are two different sets of 4 years. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Revelation 20:2-4 gives one singular timeframe---the thousand years. satan is bound for that thousand years, and the martyred saints reign with Christ for that exact same thousand years.

If the binding ends in verse 7 because the thousand years are expired, then the era of the thousand years is legally over. You cannot claim the reigning keeps going for newly martyred saints in the year 2043 AD per that one analogy I was using, because the era of the thousand years already closed in 2040 AD.

Premil doesn't involve convoluted gymnastics like this. Per a Premil view, when the millennium ends, it simply means the ruling with a rod of iron is no longer being enforced, which allows for the testing of the nations that follows. The chronological order is straight and simple.

You are forcing a massive contradiction onto the text. If a saint is martyred during the little season, the millennium is over. They cannot enter heaven to reign for a thousand years in an era that has already expired. Maybe in the Twilight Zone they can. But in the real world they can't

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apparently, you fail to grasp that when an era of time is in the past, it means that era of time is finished. Nowhere in Rev 20 does it say anyone reigns with Christ a thousand years and a little season. We are to go by what the text says. Not what it doesn't say.

What is your point? Are you trying to claim that Jesus doesn't reign during Satan's little season? If so, that's a problem for you as a Premil every bit as much as it would be for any Amil who claims that. Scripture says He will reign forever, not for a temporary time of a thousand years (literal or not).

The way you are going about reasoning things would be like insisting when a US President finishes a 4 or 8 year term, and a new President is elected, this means the former President is still the President while this newly elected President is President instead.. There is no way you are going to be able to come up with a real world example that proves your point. You can try though, I guess.

Goodness sakes. If I'm understanding you correctly here, you seem to be trying to argue that Jesus will no longer be king and no longer reigning when the thousand years ends. Is that what you're trying to say?