Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry, this is all gibberish to me. I do not know what you're trying to say. What is your point? This in unintelligible?

Everything he's saying in this thread so far is nonsensical. This shows how desperate he is to try to refute Amil. He has to resort to ridiculous nonsense that only he understands in order to refute Amil in his own mind.

 

[Marty fox]

You are completely shifting the goalposts and changing the clear definitions of words to avoid the trap you are in. Don't accuse me of giving satan credit just because your chronological timeline doesn't make logical sense.


Let's look at your 4 point list and blow it completely out of the water using basic grammar.


You admit that both the binding and the reigning start at the exact same event (the cross). You also admit that the binding ends in verse 7 because the thousand years are expired and fulfilled.

If the thousand years are expired and fulfilled in verse 7, then the era of the thousand years is over. Done. Finished.

Yet, you claim in point 4 that the thousand year reign keeps going through the little season. This means you are forcing the exact same phrase---the thousand years---to mean two completely different lengths of time in the exact same chapter!

Let's go back to my presidential analogy since you are still trying to dodge it.

Imagine a US President takes office. Two things start at the exact same moment.


The President's 4 year term.

The President's residency in the White House.

According to your logic, when the 4 years are expired, the President leaves office, but he gets to stay in the White House for another 6 months because his residency doesn't end just because his term ended. That is absolute nonsense.

You brought up verse 5---the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Thank you for proving my point. Verse 5 tells us that the resurrection happens WHEN the thousand years are finished. But your timeline claims the resurrection happens at the end of the world, after the little season is finished.

If the little season takes 3 years (e.g., 2040 AD to 2043 AD), then by your logic, the resurrection is happening 3 years after the thousand years were finished. But verse 5 doesn't say after the little season, it says until the thousand years were finished. You are directly contradicting verse 5.

So my question stands completely untouched, and no amount of spiritualizing or emotional deflection changes it.

If a saint is martyred in the year 2043 AD (during the little season), they are entering heaven three years after the thousand years were finished (per verse 5) and expired (per verse 7). How can they enter heaven and reign during an era of time that has already been finished and expired for three years?

Premil doesn't have to break basic grammar or invent double meanings for time periods like this. Face the timeline logic honestly instead of telling me I don't want answers.

You are completely hopeless in this Dave, of course I am saying there are two sets of thousand years, I’ve said that multiple times, there has to be because Jesus doesn’t stop reigning when satan is released.

So yes you are giving satan more credit than Jesus if you think the reigning ends when satan is released

I’m only posting for other people reading now because you really don’t want our answers to your questions

 

[ewq1938]

The reign spoken of in Rev 19-20 is a rod of iron reign over the nations, not a general reign of Christ without definition as Amill is trying to present.

The rod of iron reign does end, when satan is released from prison.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The reign spoken of in Rev 19-20 is a rod of iron reign over the nations, not a general reign of Christ without definition as Amill is trying to present.

The rod of iron reign does end, when satan is released from prison.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

He can't rule over people He has just destroyed in the winepress of God's wrath. Yet, that's what you expect us to believe. Read Psalm 2:7-9. It talks about Jesus BREAKING (destroying) the heathen with a rod of iron. You are not looking at the context here.

 

[Davidpt]

If some reading this thread haven't figured it out by now, the Amil timeline itself proves that Amil cannot be the correct position.

Amils' timeline involves saints being martyred after the thousand years. Their timeline then has these same martyrs going to heaven and finishing the thousand year reign there, despite the fact that their own timeline already has these saints finishing the millennium while they were still alive on earth before they were even martyred

Therefore, Amils have zero logical explanation as to what happens to saints who are martyred during satan's little season once they enter heaven in a disembodied state.

Their only answer is that these late stage martyrs finish reigning with Christ a thousand years once they enter heaven. Except that answer completely defies logic and contradicts their own timeline.

Per Premil, something like this couldn't possibly happen. Per Premil, no saints are being martyred during satan's little season to begin with. Revelation 20:7-9 does not record a single saint being martyred during satan's little season. It is only at the end of his little season that anyone dies, and none of them are saved saints.

Why would those verses mention death pertaining to the lost, but completely neglect to mention deaths pertaining to the saved? Someone needs to point out in Revelation 20:7-9 where they are seeing saints being martyred left and right. If saints are being martyred left and right, then who is left to surround in verse 9? And why would billions be surrounding a handful, assuming there are even some saints who manage to escape martyrdom?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If some reading this thread haven't figured it out by now, the Amil timeline itself proves that Amil cannot be the correct position.

No, anyone reading this thread can see that you are trying to make an argument against Amil that makes no sense to anyone but you.

Amils' timeline involves saints being martyred after the thousand years.

So? Don't Premils not have any saints being martyred after the thousand years? What different does this make?

Their timeline then has these same martyrs going to heaven and finishing the thousand year reign there, despite the fact that their own timeline already has these saints finishing the millennium while they were still alive on earth before they were even martyred.

Huh? This is completely nonsensical. What difference does it make if someone is on earth or in heaven during the thousand years?

Therefore, Amils have zero logical explanation as to what happens to saints who are martyred during satan's little season once they enter heaven in a disembodied state.

What in the world are you talking about? They go to be with Christ, of course. Just like all Christians do. I would think Premils would agree with that. You're not making any sense in this thread whatsoever.

Their only answer is that these late stage martyrs finish reigning with Christ a thousand years once they enter heaven. Except that answer completely defies logic and contradicts their own timeline.

Why is that? Stop making claims that you can't back up in a way that anyone can understand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This thread is pointless. Moving on....

 

[WPM]

If some reading this thread haven't figured it out by now, the Amil timeline itself proves that Amil cannot be the correct position.

Amils' timeline involves saints being martyred after the thousand years. Their timeline then has these same martyrs going to heaven and finishing the thousand year reign there, despite the fact that their own timeline already has these saints finishing the millennium while they were still alive on earth before they were even martyred

Therefore, Amils have zero logical explanation as to what happens to saints who are martyred during satan's little season once they enter heaven in a disembodied state.

Their only answer is that these late stage martyrs finish reigning with Christ a thousand years once they enter heaven. Except that answer completely defies logic and contradicts their own timeline.

Per Premil, something like this couldn't possibly happen. Per Premil, no saints are being martyred during satan's little season to begin with. Revelation 20:7-9 does not record a single saint being martyred during satan's little season. It is only at the end of his little season that anyone dies, and none of them are saved saints.

Why would those verses mention death pertaining to the lost, but completely neglect to mention deaths pertaining to the saved? Someone needs to point out in Revelation 20:7-9 where they are seeing saints being martyred left and right. If saints are being martyred left and right, then who is left to surround in verse 9? And why would billions be surrounding a handful, assuming there are even some saints who manage to escape martyrdom?

I wonder why you cannot address the rebuttals presented above?

 

[WPM]

You are completely inventing things that are nowhere to be found in the text. Where does Revelation 20 say there are two different sets of a thousand years? It doesn't.

You are inventing a second millennium out of thin air to escape a logical trap.

Let's apply your logic back to the real world using the presidential analogy I gave you earlier.

Imagine a US President is elected to a fixed 4 year term. During those 4 years, two things happen simultaneously. The President signs laws. The President lives in the White House.

According to your logic, when the 4 years expire and a new President moves in, the former President is somehow still living in the White House because living in the White House and signing laws are two different sets of 4 years. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Revelation 20:2-4 gives one singular timeframe---the thousand years. satan is bound for that thousand years, and the martyred saints reign with Christ for that exact same thousand years.

If the binding ends in verse 7 because the thousand years are expired, then the era of the thousand years is legally over. You cannot claim the reigning keeps going for newly martyred saints in the year 2043 AD per that one analogy I was using, because the era of the thousand years already closed in 2040 AD.

Premil doesn't involve convoluted gymnastics like this. Per a Premil view, when the millennium ends, it simply means the ruling with a rod of iron is no longer being enforced, which allows for the testing of the nations that follows. The chronological order is straight and simple.

You are forcing a massive contradiction onto the text. If a saint is martyred during the little season, the millennium is over. They cannot enter heaven to reign for a thousand years in an era that has already expired. Maybe in the Twilight Zone they can. But in the real world they can't

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.