Can Amils reasonably explain the following by keeping gymnastics and moving the goalpost out of it?

[Davidpt]

AI—whether Google AI or ChatGPT—does not have a God given-soul, or is the child of God and does not possess spiritual discernment. It only generates responses from patterns in human-produced information, including conflicting theological opinions. It can help locate verses or summarize arguments, but it cannot replace understanding given by the Holy Spirit. Selah!

An AI agreeing with you does not establish that your interpretation is biblical. Show from Scripture why your points are valid. The authority rests in God’s Word, not in an AI-generated endorsement.

For example, you raised an objection concerning the “silence in heaven about the space of half an hour” in Revelation 8:1. But neither your assertion nor an AI-generated answer establishes what “heaven” means in this passage. Does it refer to God’s heavenly dwelling, or does it symbolically represent the kingdom of heaven as manifested in His congregation?

Could this correspond to the period when the Two Witnesses lie dead and their testimony is silenced in Revelation 11:7–10? If their testimony is silenced, shouldn’t we at least examine whether these passages describe the same spiritual reality? Humm?!

Those questions must be examined through Scripture before you can claim that this passage disproves my interpretation. An AI agreeing with your assumptions does not establish that those assumptions are correct.

Selah!

So now you are being a hypocrite. Now you are all of a sudden anti-AI when it's already plainly obvious to the rest of us that you use AI as a tool yourself since your writing style didn't just magically improve over night.

 

[WPM]

Maybe you need to read the OP again. It doesn't matter what I believe or don't believe. The OP is coming from the perspective of Amil, such as @WPM holds, where he has already admitted that the little season in Rev 6 is the same little season in Rev 20. Therefore, per his timeline, not per my timeline nor even per your timeline, this means his timeline has saints being martyred left and right based on that the little season recorded in Rev 6 plainly says so and that he has this little seasonn being the same as the one in Rev 20---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Rev 6:11) = Revelation 20:7-9 on @WPM timeline.

The reader will notice that you are avoiding my rebuttals. They will also understand why. You have to. It forbids your thesis.

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Maybe you need to read the OP again. It doesn't matter what I believe or don't believe. The OP is coming from the perspective of Amil, such as @WPM holds, where he has already admitted that the little season in Rev 6 is the same little season in Rev 20.

Well, I disagree with WPM on this point. The expression “a little season” does not, by itself, establish that two passages describe the same period. It simply means a short time of whatever is in view, and the context determines what happens during that time.

In Revelation 6:11, the slain saints are told to rest for a little season while awaiting the fulfillment of their brethren’s suffering. In Revelation 20:3, Satan is released for a little season. Those descriptions should not automatically be treated as identical periods merely because they use the same expression.

Let me explain the sequence as I understand it.

The church age: the testimony of the Two Witnesses

Beginning with Christ’s victory at the Cross and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, God sends His people to proclaim the Gospel. I understand the Two Witnesses to represent the whole body of faithful saints bearing that testimony throughout the New Testament age.

Their symbolic 1,260 days represent the appointed period of their Gospel witness for the purpose of salvation, during which God gathers and seals His people. You need to read Revelation 7:1–4 over and over and over. This pictures judgment being restrained until God’s servants are sealed first. Selah!

Then Revelation 11:7 specifically says that the beast makes war against the witnesses “when they shall have finished their testimony.” The completion of their appointed testimony therefore precedes the beast’s attack against them.

In my understanding, once God has completed the gathering and sealing of His elect, the witnesses’ testimony for that purpose for salvation is finished, because God no longer seal any more men into His kingdom, selah! He then loosened the beast from the bottomless pit, wages spiritual war against Two Witnesses, overcomes them, and kills them. Not physically killing them. But SILENCE their testimony for salvation. In other words, their power to preach gospel has been gone. Remember what Daniel 9:12 says about this?

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.” (Daniel 12:7)

Remember that the Two Witnesses received the power at Pentecost to preach Salvation gospel? This is the power that the beast will scatter! In other words, salvation has ceased. Selah!

So, that sequence involves time. The passage does not require us to believe that the witnesses finish their testimony, the beast emerges, the war occurs, and the witnesses die—all at once in one literal day. It takes time for the army of Satan to overcome the church all over the world - Gog and Magog! Selah!

Therefore their death here means the silencing of their faithful testimony for the purpose of salvation.
Now, the souls in heaven saw this and appealed:

Revelation 6:9–11 describes the souls beneath the altar crying:

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood?”

They are told to rest for a little season until the appointed number of their fellow servants and brethren should be fulfilled. In other words, until all Two Witnesses are finally killed and lying dead in the streets of the great city for 3-1/2 symbolic days. Get it?

The cry of the souls after the sealing in Revelation 7. I understand these visions as related pictures of God withholding judgment of the unfaithful church until His appointed purpose, including the suffering of His witnesses, is fulfilled first.

So after the beast overcomes them, the Two Witnesses lie dead for a symbolic three and a half days. The inhabitants of the earth rejoice because the testimony of truth that tormented them has been silenced (Revelation 11:8–10).

Why did that testimony torment them? Because God’s truth exposed their sins and challenged their falsehoods who refuse to repent.

I connect this period of the silence for three and half days with "approximately half an hour" in Revelation 8:1. That connection is my interpretation; neither passage explicitly equates the two periods. I understand both as portraying the silencing of faithful Gospel testimony within the congregation—a spiritual famine comparable to the lack of hearing God’s Word described in Amos 8:11.

In this reading, “heaven” represents God’s kingdom of heaven as manifested in the congregation, and the great city represents that congregation in its unfaithfulness. Revelation 11:8 itself identifies the city spiritually as Sodom and Egypt.

God revives His witnesses and brings judgment

Of course the silence does not continue indefinitely. After the three and a half days, the Spirit of life from God enters the witnesses, and they stand upon their feet (Revelation 11:11).

I understand this as God awakening and restoring His people to prophesy again so that they start to "see" or "recognize" the abomination of desolation in the congregation and heed His command to depart. This corresponds, in my reading, to the warning:

“Come out of her, my people” (Revelation 18:4).

The pattern resembles Lot’s removal from Sodom before its destruction (Luke 17:28–30). God delivers His people, and judgment upon the city follows.

The connection with the ten virgins

I also see a parallel with Matthew 25:1–13. All ten virgins sleep, but the midnight cry awakens them. The wise have oil and are ready; the foolish discover their lack too late.

The parable identify their sleep with the death of the Two Witnesses. I am drawing a spiritual parallel: The foolish virgins are the professed Christian in the covenant congregation does not have inward readiness. The decisive difference is whether a person truly belongs to Christ.

Likewise, I understand the revived witnesses as God’s faithful people being awakened to recognize the need to depart from the unfaithful congregation.

My conclusion

The three and a half days are symbolic, and I do not treat the half hour as thirty literal minutes. They describe, in my understanding, a brief period of spiritual silence before God intervenes.

My position is that the congregation’s final desolation coincides with the completed departure of God’s faithful people. Its appointed role in gathering them has ended, and judgment falls upon the city that rejected their testimony.

That is the sequence I am arguing: the witnesses finish their testimony; the beast wages war and silences them; God revives them; His people depart; and judgment falls upon the unfaithful congregation. The faithful Saints who are "alive and remain" on Earth will witness the judgment of the whore and KNOW that Christ's coming is right at the door. Once the "hour" of judgment of the whore is finished, the last Trump (seventh trump) sounds, and the Lord appears in the sky where we will meet in the air.

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

So now you are being a hypocrite. Now you are all of a sudden anti-AI when it's already plainly obvious to the rest of us that you use AI as a tool yourself since your writing style didn't just magically improve over night.

Huh? LOL!!!!

You have confused two different uses of AI and then accused me of hypocrisy on that basis.

Yes, I use AI to improve grammar, spelling, and clarity. I have no objection to using it as an editing tool. My objection is to treating its theological answers as authoritative—as though “AI agrees with me” settles the meaning of Scripture.

Improving how an argument is written does not establish whether that argument is biblically sound. That applies to my posts just as much as yours. Every interpretation must be tested against God’s Word.

If you believe my interpretation is wrong, demonstrate that from Scripture. Pointing out that my writing has improved does nothing to refute my argument. Address the distinction I actually made before accusing me of hypocrisy.

Selah!

 

[Davidpt]

AI—whether Google AI or ChatGPT—does not have a God given-soul, or is the child of God and does not possess spiritual discernment. It only generates responses from patterns in human-produced information, including conflicting theological opinions. It can help locate verses or summarize arguments, but it cannot replace understanding given by the Holy Spirit. Selah!

An AI agreeing with you does not establish that your interpretation is biblical. Show from Scripture why your points are valid. The authority rests in God’s Word, not in an AI-generated endorsement.

For example, you raised an objection concerning the “silence in heaven about the space of half an hour” in Revelation 8:1. But neither your assertion nor an AI-generated answer establishes what “heaven” means in this passage. Does it refer to God’s heavenly dwelling, or does it symbolically represent the kingdom of heaven as manifested in His congregation?

Could this correspond to the period when the Two Witnesses lie dead and their testimony is silenced in Revelation 11:7–10? If their testimony is silenced, shouldn’t we at least examine whether these passages describe the same spiritual reality? Humm?!

Those questions must be examined through Scripture before you can claim that this passage disproves my interpretation. An AI agreeing with your assumptions does not establish that those assumptions are correct.

Selah!

If you try to argue that it was only their bodies lying in the street while their souls immediately went to heaven during those 3.5 days, you just walked right back into my original trap. You can't escape it.

Think about the timeline you just set up. If the 1,260 days of their preaching represents the Millennium (the Church Age), then by the time they are killed, that era is over. The 3.5 days they lie dead aparently represents satan's little season, in that case, which happens after the millennium.

So, if their souls leave their bodies and go up to heaven during those 3.5 days (thus during satan's little season), what era do they enter when they get there?

Do they get to sit on thrones and reign for the thousand years? How? The 1,260 days (I'm assuming the millennium per your view) is already finished and over with on earth.


If heaven is synced with earth, then heaven is also synced with the 3.5 day little season era.

You cannot have their souls enter heaven during the little season and somehow retroactively reign in a millennium that your own timeline says ended before they were even killed.

You are stuck between a rock and a hard place here, it seems.

If you say their souls stayed with their bodies on earth for 3.5 days, you are teaching soul sleep, which destroys your own theology.

If you say their souls went to heaven during those 3.5 days, you are admitting that souls enter heaven after the millennium has expired, completely demolishing the Amil claim that these souls go to heaven to finish out a thousand year reign.

No matter which way you slice it, dragging Revelation 11 into this thread didn't help your case at all. It just gave us another passage where the Amil timeline completely collapses under basic sequential logic

 

[WPM]

If you try to argue that it was only their bodies lying in the street while their souls immediately went to heaven during those 3.5 days, you just walked right back into my original trap. You can't escape it.

Think about the timeline you just set up. If the 1,260 days of their preaching represents the Millennium (the Church Age), then by the time they are killed, that era is over. The 3.5 days they lie dead aparently represents satan's little season, in that case, which happens after the millennium.

So, if their souls leave their bodies and go up to heaven during those 3.5 days (thus during satan's little season), what era do they enter when they get there?

Do they get to sit on thrones and reign for the thousand years? How? The 1,260 days (I'm assuming the millennium per your view) is already finished and over with on earth.


If heaven is synced with earth, then heaven is also synced with the 3.5 day little season era.

You cannot have their souls enter heaven during the little season and somehow retroactively reign in a millennium that your own timeline says ended before they were even killed.

You are stuck between a rock and a hard place here, it seems.

If you say their souls stayed with their bodies on earth for 3.5 days, you are teaching soul sleep, which destroys your own theology.

If you say their souls went to heaven during those 3.5 days, you are admitting that souls enter heaven after the millennium has expired, completely demolishing the Amil claim that these souls go to heaven to finish out a thousand year reign.

No matter which way you slice it, dragging Revelation 11 into this thread didn't help your case at all. It just gave us another passage where the Amil timeline completely collapses under basic sequential logic

What are you scared of? LOL.

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If you try to argue that it was only their bodies lying in the street while their souls immediately went to heaven during those 3.5 days, you just walked right back into my original trap. You can't escape it.

Facepalm. Your “inescapable trap” depends entirely on an argument I never made. Quite an accomplishment.

The bodies lying in the street symbolize the silenced testimony of the saints. I am not describing an actual literal corpses in a literal city and asking where their souls went during those three and a half days. You are inserting that premise into my interpretation, then congratulating yourself for defeating it.

Before announcing that I “can’t escape,” try understanding what I actually said. You have trapped your own assumption, not my argument.