Can Seals Be Broken?

[Axehead]

[background=white][background=transparent]Can Seals Be Broken? [/background][/background]

[background=white][background=transparent]Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [/background][/background]

[background=white]Paul's is using an analogy of a "sealed document" back then. When you sealed a document, you sealed it with wax and it was sealed until it was delivered to the proper recipient. Paul was using an analogy of an inheritance in a legal will, which would have been properly witnessed and sealed by a representative of the Roman government. [/background]

[background=white]When a document like this is received, the first thing that is observed is whether or not the seal is intact. If the seal was broken then the representative would know that some tampering occurred and the document would be considered void and the inheritance denied. [/background]

[background=white]This is Paul's analogy. We must protect our covenant with God and not seek to break the seal of the Holy Spirit. [/background]

[background=white]Was it possible for a Roman citizen to break the wax seal? Of course it was. This is also true of one who breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit. That is why blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. If you look at various verses that speak of falling away, you will see that this sin against the Holy Spirit is linked to Apostasy. [/background]

[background=white]Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [/background]
[background=white]Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [/background]
[background=white]Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [/background]

[background=white]Heb 10:29 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [/background]

[background=white]This is why Paul warned us not to tamper with our seal. [/background]

[background=white]Eph 4:30 [/background]
[background=white]30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [/background]

[background=white]This is a big problem with Christendom, today. A false security is being preached. Once sealed, always sealed! The Word of God does not agree nor support that. Remember, these letters are written to Followers of Christ. The Early Church did not believe OSAS.[/background]

[background=white]Here are some examples:[/background]
[background=white]1 Tim 1:19-20 [/background]
[background=white]19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [/background]
[background=white]20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. [/background]

[background=white]Paul warned Timothy to guard his faith. He stated clearly that some had abandoned their faith and shipwrecked. Then he named two acquaintances, Hymenaeus and Alexander, who became apostates by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. [/background]

[background=white]Did you know that the Word of God says that our faith can be overthrown? [/background]
[background=white]2 Tim 2:16-18 [/background]
[background=white]16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. [/background]
[background=white]17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; [/background]
[background=white]18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. [/background]

[background=white]Hymenaeus was not content to make shipwreck of his own faith. Now, we find him teaching false doctrine [eschatology] and thereby overthrowing the faith of others. Sounds like he was teaching Preterism. [/background]

[background=white]2 Tim 4:10 [/background]
[background=white]10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; ... [/background]

[background=white]Paul warned Timothy extensively about the lure of materialism. Apparently, many believers had quit and become entangled in the lust for money. [/background]

[background=white]1 Tim 6:10 [/background]
[background=white]10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. [/background]

[background=white]This brings to mind the parable of the Sower. Remember, some fell among "thorns." Jesus said the "thorns" were the cares of this world and the love of money, which after the seed has sprouted, and begun to grow, they choke the Word, and the plant dies. [/background]

[background=white]These examples of Christians who's faith failed because of a love of money or power demonstrate that the warnings in Scripture about falling away are real. [/background]

[background=white]Here is a conditional promise. Can you tell me what the condition is?[/background]

[background=white]Rom 11:20-22 [/background]
[background=white]20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [/background]
[background=white]21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [/background]
[background=white]22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [/background]

[background=white]That little word "IF", makes a big difference, doesn't it? [/background]

[background=white]Can you point out the condition in this verse?[/background]
[background=white]1 Cor 15:1-2 [/background]
[background=white]1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [/background]
[background=white]2 By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [/background]

[background=white]There's that pesky little word "IF", again.
(Looks like their salvation is linked to perseverance. Kind of like, "he that endures to the end will be saved. Matt 24). [/background]

[background=white]Col 1:21-23 [/background]
[background=white]21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [/background]
[background=white]22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [/background]
[background=white]23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [/background]

[background=white]Again, we find this in the Scriptures. Another conditional statement. That little word[/background][background=white] "IF"[/background][background=white] messes things up again!![/background]

[background=white]Heb 3:12-14 [/background]
[background=white]12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [/background]
[background=white]13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [/background]
[background=white]14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [/background]

"IF", once again. There are many of these in the Scriptures. You may want to look them up.

[background=white]So, I don't know how you explain Scriptures like these away. I'm sure there is an "explanation" somewhere. But it looks like UNBELIEF will surely ruin us. It is afterall, the opposite of FAITH. But what this passage reveals, is that it can happen to a Believer. A hard heart leads to unbelief and unbelief leads to departing from God. [/background]

[background=white]We will be made partakers with Christ IF we hold our initial confidence [or faith] until the end. [/background]

[background=white]Heb 2:1-3 [/background]
[background=white]1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. [/background]
[background=white]2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; [/background]
[background=white]3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; [/background]

[background=white]I'm really surprised that people do not see these conditional statements in the Scriptures. But, I think the man-made doctrines have blinded them and made these scriptures of "no effect". [/background]

[background=white]"Neglect" is treating something that is precious, casually. It is carelessness. Unfortunately, this is the state of many Christians today. Yet, they think they are in no danger. That is because a false Gospel of false security is being preached and the reason why you cannot tell the difference between the world and the church, today. [/background]

[background=white]James 5:19-20 [/background]
[background=white]19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; (Who are the brethren that James is talking to?)[/background]
[background=white]20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [/background]

[background=white]The only death that does not hide a multitude of sins is eternal death, not physical death. Because after physical death, we will all be judged. [/background]

[background=white]Of course people think up all manner of explanations why people fall away. The main one is that they were never saved to begin with. That does not cohere with the preponderance of scriptures. What I have outlined for you does agree with the preponderance of Scripture and experience. Too many of us have known born-again people who have departed from the faith. If your man-made doctrine says that cannot happen, then it is convenient to say, "they were never born-again". [/background]

Axehead

 

[Webers_Home]

†. Eph 1:13-14 . . In him you also trusted, after you heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you
were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our
inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession

What that statement alludes to is the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation.
According to the Catechism-- CCC. 1317 --the seal is an imprinted spiritual
mark or indelible character on the believer's soul. However, according to the
syntax of the passage above, the seal isn't a mark or a character at all, but
rather, it's a person: the promised Holy Spirit.

The koiné Greek word for "guarantee" is arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn') which
means: a pledge; which Webster's defines as: (1) security for a debt or
other obligation, and (2) something given as security for the performance
of an act.

An excellent example of a pledge is located at Gen 38:15-18. Judah left his
staff and his signet with a women whom he assumed to be a temple
prostitute to guarantee his promise to pay her with an animal from his
flocks. According to the rules of a pledge, had Judah reneged on his promise,
the woman would have legal right to keep his personal items in lieu of the animal.
This is exactly how quite a few pawn shops conduct their short-term loan
business even to this day.

So then, since the Holy Spirit is God's pledge in Eph 1:13-14; then,
according to the principles underlying pledges, if God should renege on
His promise to spare people who hear and believe the gospel, then He has
to forfeit His own Spirit, and the believer gets to keep it, regardless of their
eternal destiny.

Since it would be very embarrassing for God to renege, and even more
embarrassing to send somebody to hell accompanied by His Spirit, I'm
sure you can see right off that once God commits; He will certainly follow
through.

†. Php 1:6 . . Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you
will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you; those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Cliff
/

 

[Axehead]

So then, since the Holy Spirit is God's pledge in Eph 1:13-14; then,
according to the principles underlying pledges, if God should renege on
His promise to spare people who hear and believe the gospel, then He has
to forfeit His own Spirit, and the believer gets to keep it, regardless of their
eternal destiny.

The problem is not with God, Cliff. He wants us to know that although the times can and will get very tough, He will always be there.
He is not the one that "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit". That would be man.

Since it would be very embarrassing for God to renege, and even more
embarrassing to send somebody to hell accompanied by His Spirit, I'm
sure you can see right off that once God commits; He will certainly follow
through.

God does not operate like man does and "embarrassment" isn't even in His vocabulary.
Remember that "He humbled himself as a man".

Axehead

 

[Stan]

†. Eph 1:13-14 . . In him you also trusted, after you heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you
were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our
inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession

What that statement alludes to is the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation.
According to the Catechism-- CCC. 1317 --the seal is an imprinted spiritual
mark or indelible character on the believer's soul. However, according to the
syntax of the passage above, the seal isn't a mark or a character at all, but
rather, it's a person: the promised Holy Spirit.

The koiné Greek word for "guarantee" is arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn') which
means: a pledge; which Webster's defines as: (1) security for a debt or
other obligation, and (2) something given as security for the performance
of an act.

An excellent example of a pledge is located at Gen 38:15-18. Judah left his
staff and his signet with a women whom he assumed to be a temple
prostitute to guarantee his promise to pay her with an animal from his
flocks. According to the rules of a pledge, had Judah reneged on his promise,
the woman would have legal right to keep his personal items in lieu of the animal.
This is exactly how quite a few pawn shops conduct their short-term loan
business even to this day.

So then, since the Holy Spirit is God's pledge in Eph 1:13-14; then,
according to the principles underlying pledges, if God should renege on
His promise to spare people who hear and believe the gospel, then He has
to forfeit His own Spirit, and the believer gets to keep it, regardless of their
eternal destiny.

Since it would be very embarrassing for God to renege, and even more
embarrassing to send somebody to hell accompanied by His Spirit, I'm
sure you can see right off that once God commits; He will certainly follow
through.

†. Php 1:6 . . Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you
will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you; those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Cliff
/

Salvation is like an airline ticket. We have assurances that the airline will take us to the destination we paid for. We receive God's ticket(seal) when we confess(pay for the ticket) Jesus. If we arrive at the airport(death) without the ticket, we can't get on the plane(eternal life).
You're using a human hypothesis and a strawman to make points here Webb. Let's cut to the chase. Do you believe in OSAS or not.

 

[Webers_Home]

Do you believe in OSAS or not.

Some of the folk hereabouts are apparently of the opinion that the Bible's
God has a problem with integrity. Not me. I believe that God's pledge, like
His word, is His bond; viz: I have every right to detain God's Spirit in custody
until God makes good on His promise to pull me through to safety.

Another application of the arrhabon pledge is commonly seen in real estate
transactions.

As anybody who's ever bought property knows, earnest money isn't a down
payment; no, far from it. Although it may be applied towards the purchase
price of property, earnest money itself serves a specific purpose of its own in
the real estate business. In some quarters; this is also called good faith
money.

When the contract, and all the other necessary documents are submitted to
Escrow, the buyer is required to also submit a token amount of the purchase
price. It's usually a relatively small number of dollars compared to the full
price of the property. I think ours was just $1,000 back in 1988 on a
$74,000 home. When the buyer follows through on their intent to purchase
the property, the good faith money (minus some Escrow fees of course)
goes towards the purchase. However, if the buyer loses interest in the
property and decides to renege, then they forfeit the good faith money. No
doubt that's done to discourage half-hearted buyers from fiddling around
with other people's time and money.

So then, since God's Spirit is the Escrow deposit depicted in Eph 1:13-14;
then, according to the principles underlying good faith deposits, if God
should renege on His promise to spare people who hear and believe the
gospel, then God has to forfeit His own Spirit, and the believer gets to keep
it, regardless of their eternal destiny.

There are people who actually believe the Bible's God is capable of reneging
on His promises. A belief of that nature of course eo ipso insinuates that the
Bible's God is a person of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell
the truth. Their lack of confidence in His integrity also casts a vote of no
confidence in the Lord's competence as a good shepherd.

Cliff
/

 

[Stan]

Some of the folk hereabouts are apparently of the opinion that the Bible's
God has a problem with integrity. Not me. I believe that God's pledge, like
His word, is His bond; viz: I have every right to detain God's Spirit in custody
until God makes good on His promise to pull me through to safety.

Another application of the arrhabon pledge is commonly seen in real estate
transactions.

As anybody who's ever bought property knows, earnest money isn't a down
payment; no, far from it. Although it may be applied towards the purchase
price of property, earnest money itself serves a specific purpose of its own in
the real estate business. In some quarters; this is also called good faith
money.

When the contract, and all the other necessary documents are submitted to
Escrow, the buyer is required to also submit a token amount of the purchase
price. It's usually a relatively small number of dollars compared to the full
price of the property. I think ours was just $1,000 back in 1988 on a
$74,000 home. When the buyer follows through on their intent to purchase
the property, the good faith money (minus some Escrow fees of course)
goes towards the purchase. However, if the buyer loses interest in the
property and decides to renege, then they forfeit the good faith money. No
doubt that's done to discourage half-hearted buyers from fiddling around
with other people's time and money.

So then, since God's Spirit is the Escrow deposit depicted in Eph 1:13-14;
then, according to the principles underlying good faith deposits, if God
should renege on His promise to spare people who hear and believe the
gospel, then God has to forfeit His own Spirit, and the believer gets to keep
it, regardless of their eternal destiny.

There are people who actually believe the Bible's God is capable of reneging
on His promises. A belief of that nature of course eo ipso insinuates that the
Bible's God is a person of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell
the truth. Their lack of confidence in His integrity also casts a vote of no
confidence in the Lord's competence as a good shepherd.

Cliff
/

:huh:
Was there a yes or a no in there some where?

 

[Webers_Home]

The information dispensed in Eph 1:13-14 isn't for everybody. It's applicable
to a very narrow segment of the population.

To begin with, the epistle to the Ephesians was written not to the world; but
to a Christian church.

†. Eph 1:1a . .To the saints who are at Ephesus,

But it gets even narrower:

†. Eph 1:1b . . to the faithful

And narrower yet:

†. Eph 1:1c . . in Christ Jesus

So then, in order to qualify as a valid target audience of Eph 1:13-14; the
candidate must first of all be a Christian. Secondly they must be a faithful
Christian. And thirdly, they must be a faithful Christian in Christ Jesus.

So then, unless somebody meets all three of those requirements; Eph 1:13-14 is
nothing for them to be concerned about; and besides: they wouldn't get it right
anyway.

†. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom
that God gave him - - His letters contain some things that are hard to
understand, which ignorant and unstable people twist, as they do the other
scriptures, to their own destruction.

Cliff
/

 

[Episkopos]

[background=white][background=transparent]Can Seals Be Broken? [/background][/background]

[background=white][background=transparent]Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [/background][/background]

[background=white]Paul's is using an analogy of a "sealed document" back then. When you sealed a document, you sealed it with wax and it was sealed until it was delivered to the proper recipient. Paul was using an analogy of an inheritance in a legal will, which would have been properly witnessed and sealed by a representative of the Roman government. [/background]

[background=white]When a document like this is received, the first thing that is observed is whether or not the seal is intact. If the seal was broken then the representative would know that some tampering occurred and the document would be considered void and the inheritance denied. [/background]

[background=white]This is Paul's analogy. We must protect our covenant with God and not seek to break the seal of the Holy Spirit. [/background]

[background=white]Was it possible for a Roman citizen to break the wax seal? Of course it was. This is also true of one who breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit. That is why blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. If you look at various verses that speak of falling away, you will see that this sin against the Holy Spirit is linked to Apostasy. [/background]

[background=white]Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [/background]
[background=white]Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [/background]
[background=white]Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [/background]

[background=white]Heb 10:29 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [/background]

[background=white]This is why Paul warned us not to tamper with our seal. [/background]

[background=white]Eph 4:30 [/background]
[background=white]30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [/background]

[background=white]This is a big problem with Christendom, today. A false security is being preached. Once sealed, always sealed! The Word of God does not agree nor support that. Remember, these letters are written to Followers of Christ. The Early Church did not believe OSAS.[/background]

[background=white]Here are some examples:[/background]
[background=white]1 Tim 1:19-20 [/background]
[background=white]19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: [/background]
[background=white]20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. [/background]

[background=white]Paul warned Timothy to guard his faith. He stated clearly that some had abandoned their faith and shipwrecked. Then he named two acquaintances, Hymenaeus and Alexander, who became apostates by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. [/background]

[background=white]Did you know that the Word of God says that our faith can be overthrown? [/background]
[background=white]2 Tim 2:16-18 [/background]
[background=white]16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. [/background]
[background=white]17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; [/background]
[background=white]18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. [/background]

[background=white]Hymenaeus was not content to make shipwreck of his own faith. Now, we find him teaching false doctrine [eschatology] and thereby overthrowing the faith of others. Sounds like he was teaching Preterism. [/background]

[background=white]2 Tim 4:10 [/background]
[background=white]10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; ... [/background]

[background=white]Paul warned Timothy extensively about the lure of materialism. Apparently, many believers had quit and become entangled in the lust for money. [/background]

[background=white]1 Tim 6:10 [/background]
[background=white]10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. [/background]

[background=white]This brings to mind the parable of the Sower. Remember, some fell among "thorns." Jesus said the "thorns" were the cares of this world and the love of money, which after the seed has sprouted, and begun to grow, they choke the Word, and the plant dies. [/background]

[background=white]These examples of Christians who's faith failed because of a love of money or power demonstrate that the warnings in Scripture about falling away are real. [/background]

[background=white]Here is a conditional promise. Can you tell me what the condition is?[/background]

[background=white]Rom 11:20-22 [/background]
[background=white]20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [/background]
[background=white]21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [/background]
[background=white]22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [/background]

[background=white]That little word "IF", makes a big difference, doesn't it? [/background]

[background=white]Can you point out the condition in this verse?[/background]
[background=white]1 Cor 15:1-2 [/background]
[background=white]1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [/background]
[background=white]2 By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [/background]

[background=white]There's that pesky little word "IF", again.
(Looks like their salvation is linked to perseverance. Kind of like, "he that endures to the end will be saved. Matt 24). [/background]

[background=white]Col 1:21-23 [/background]
[background=white]21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [/background]
[background=white]22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [/background]
[background=white]23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [/background]

[background=white]Again, we find this in the Scriptures. Another conditional statement. That little word[/background][background=white] "IF"[/background][background=white] messes things up again!![/background]

[background=white]Heb 3:12-14 [/background]
[background=white]12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [/background]
[background=white]13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [/background]
[background=white]14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [/background]

"IF", once again. There are many of these in the Scriptures. You may want to look them up.

[background=white]So, I don't know how you explain Scriptures like these away. I'm sure there is an "explanation" somewhere. But it looks like UNBELIEF will surely ruin us. It is afterall, the opposite of FAITH. But what this passage reveals, is that it can happen to a Believer. A hard heart leads to unbelief and unbelief leads to departing from God. [/background]

[background=white]We will be made partakers with Christ IF we hold our initial confidence [or faith] until the end. [/background]

[background=white]Heb 2:1-3 [/background]
[background=white]1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. [/background]
[background=white]2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; [/background]
[background=white]3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; [/background]

[background=white]I'm really surprised that people do not see these conditional statements in the Scriptures. But, I think the man-made doctrines have blinded them and made these scriptures of "no effect". [/background]

[background=white]"Neglect" is treating something that is precious, casually. It is carelessness. Unfortunately, this is the state of many Christians today. Yet, they think they are in no danger. That is because a false Gospel of false security is being preached and the reason why you cannot tell the difference between the world and the church, today. [/background]

[background=white]James 5:19-20 [/background]
[background=white]19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; (Who are the brethren that James is talking to?)[/background]
[background=white]20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [/background]

[background=white]The only death that does not hide a multitude of sins is eternal death, not physical death. Because after physical death, we will all be judged. [/background]

[background=white]Of course people think up all manner of explanations why people fall away. The main one is that they were never saved to begin with. That does not cohere with the preponderance of scriptures. What I have outlined for you does agree with the preponderance of Scripture and experience. Too many of us have known born-again people who have departed from the faith. If your man-made doctrine says that cannot happen, then it is convenient to say, "they were never born-again". [/background]

Axehead

Very true!!!

It is interesting to note that while we are indeed saved by faith...the Greek word Pistis also incorporates a continuing faithfulness.

So do we abide in Christ through a one time act of faith or an ongoing faithfulness...or both!!! :)


G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Do a concordance check on the word "faithful" and you will see how pistis means both an act of faith AND a continuing faithfulness...never one in exclusion of the other.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Man-made seals can be broken, but a seal made by God CANNOT be broken. The Holy Spirit is in me; I am in Christ, and He is in the Father. It doesn't get any more secure than that.

 

[Axehead]

No man can pluck you out of His hand. But what will you do?

This is a message from the Lord to the Churches (followers of Christ).
Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What is Jesus implying about someone that does not overcome? Every believer is commanded to overcome and this is made possible only by His Spirit.

We should not consider "abiding in Him" as a self-generated "work of righteousness". It is nothing of the sort. It is a response to grace and love from the Savior.

Is our response to the Savior coerced or is it voluntary?

Axehead

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Sealing can be utilized as a nihil obstat and/or an imprimatur (John 2:33)

Jesus was sealed (John 6:27)

The Lord's tomb was sealed (Mtt 27:66)

The 144,000 will be sealed (Rev 7:4)

The Devil will be sealed (Rev 20:3)

The book of Revelation is a non-sealed book (Rev 22:10)

Cliff
/

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead and all,

It strikes me that those who are being faithful, who are in a genuine relationship with God through Jesus Christ, have trouble getting their heads round the idea that some people do fall away - even though some people do fall away. I don't say that He lets them go easily, but anyone who starts to worship the creature more than the Creator, is at risk, just as those who choose to suppress truth so they don't have to be affected by it. But God does care, and He does watch over us, and He decides when too far is too far, so that He adds delusion or reprobation to the person's situation. I'm not certain there is no way back from that, but it's not as easy as if the falling away had never happened.

Episkopos, I was looking at faith yesterday, and noticed 'persuasion' and 'credence' as the first two translations. Clearly, there is a relationship in both options. One has to be persuaded by a persuader, and if we have credence, it is in something or Someone. Mark 11:22 can be translated 'Hold (on to) the faithfulness of God'. This truth has been a great blessing in my life at times when I had little or no strength. Amen.

 

[Stan]

The book of Revelation is a non-sealed book (Rev 22:10)

Cliff

and yet he writes verse 18 & 19? What exactly does v10 mean in your view. I've never really looked at this issue.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

What exactly does v10 mean in your view.

The koiné Greek word for "seal" is somewhat ambiguous. One of its
meanings is: to keep secret.

Instructing John to "seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book" is all
the same as an executive order to make the information in the book of
Revelation freely available to the churches instead of squirreling it away in
some obscure Dead Sea cave or a forgotten monastery high on a
mountaintop God knows where.

Cliff
/

 

[Stan]

.


The koiné Greek word for "seal" is somewhat ambiguous. One of its
meanings is: to keep secret.

Instructing John to "seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book" is all
the same as an executive order to make the information in the book of
Revelation freely available to the churches instead of squirreling it away in
some obscure Dead Sea cave or a forgotten monastery high on a
mountaintop God knows where.

Cliff
/

I don't think the word is ambiguous at all. The number of connotations may not help, but within proper context, it can be used as;
d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing

1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt​

a) of a written document​

B) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be.​

It seems the Angel is saying that nothing is set or sealed in stone. We should continue on as if this wasn't written. Then Jesus says I AM COMING SOON.
NOT sealing this scripture could mean God will decide when this will transpire. Seems 'soon' didn't/doesn't have the same implication John thought it did.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I don't think the word is ambiguous at all.

Webster's defines "ambiguous" as: capable of being understood in two or
more possible senses or ways.

The koiné Greek word for "seal" at Rev 22:10 is sphragizo (sfrag-id'-zo)
which means: to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or
preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret and/or
to attest

Maybe those meanings don't meet or exceed Webster's definition to your own
satisfaction; but they sure do it to mine.

Cliff
/

 

[Stan]

.


Webster's defines "ambiguous" as: capable of being understood in two or
more possible senses or ways.

The koiné Greek word for "seal" at Rev 22:10 is sphragizo (sfrag-id'-zo)
which means: to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or
preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret and/or
to attest

Maybe those meanings don't meet or exceed Webster's definition to your own
satisfaction; but they sure do it to mine.

Cliff
/

As I said Cliff...it is NOT ambiguous to ME. Giving ONLY one connotation of the word and using the wrong one of course will make it appear ambiguous. I think my last post was clear as to how I view it. Assuming I don't understand the word 'ambiguous' or reiterating your last post, doesn't really further your case.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I think my last post was clear as to how I view it.

What your posts make clear to me is that you play by your own rules rather
than by a universal English standard like Webster's or by a universal Greek
lexicon like the Strong's. In effect then, you prefer a tower of Babel where
people's words can mean whatever they like.

Assuming I don't understand the word 'ambiguous' or reiterating your last
post, doesn't really further your case.

Maybe it doesn't further my case for you, but it does for me. You're a petty
despot in your own little world like some sort of third world psychopath. Let
me know when the first edition of Stan's Collegiate Dictionary hits the
stores; then maybe we can talk. Until then; I don't want to know you anymore.

Cliff
/

 

[Stan]

.


What your posts make clear to me is that you play by your own rules rather
than by a universal English standard like Webster's or by a universal Greek
lexicon like the Strong's. In effect then, you prefer a tower of Babel where
people's words can mean whatever they like.



Maybe it doesn't further my case for you, but it does for me. You're a petty
despot in your own little world like some sort of third world psychopath. Let
me know when the first edition of Stan's Collegiate Dictionary hits the
stores; then maybe we can talk. Until then; I don't want to know you anymore.

Cliff
/

Actually what I quoted WAS from Strong's and I said I thought it was in the right context of the scripture in questions. I did NOT accept your choice of connotations for obvious reasons. I am quite comfortable with using Strong's, Vine's, Thayer's, Trench or any number of study helps. Proper hermenuetical exegesis is my prime concern and should be everyone's. If I believe a connotation does not go with a certain context I will say so. Feel free to refute me anytime, but please cease the ad hominem attacks, this is after all a CHRISTIAN site. Some people sure get hostile. Careful you're letting the real you show through.

Oh, BTW...you DON'T know me.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I take the words in Eph. 4:30, "Ye are sealed unto the day of redemption", to mean that we are eternally secure and that NOTHING and NO ONE can break that seal--including me. Any sin I commit causes my fellowship with my Saviour to be broken un til I confess that sin, but it does NOT break the Holy Spirit's seal that will be keep me secure "unto the day of redemption", when I am called home.