"caught up to the third heaven."

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

This is a column written by Buff Scott Jr. under his Reformation Rumblings

I asked for permission to share this with you all as it touched my heart, profoundly, of wondrous thoughts.

Thank you Buff.

“I know a man in Christ who, fourteen years ago, was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise...He heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter” [Paul, II Cor. 12:1-7].

What an experience to be transported to God’s celestial domain—to be able to take an advance flight to God’s “headquarters!” Surely, the event must have been a foretaste of divinity. The apostle did not know whether he was enraptured in his body or in his spirit. He knew only that he was “caught up into Paradise” and heard things “man may not utter.”

In Jesus’ day, the Jewish community spoke of and believed in three heavens. 1] Earth’s atmosphere—air and wind, and where clouds assemble and move about; 2] Where the sun, moon, stars, and other heavenly bodies reside; and 3] Heaven or Paradise, the celestial abode itself. Paul said he was “caught up to the third heaven.”

He said that while in heaven he “heard unspeakable things.” He characterized what he heard as “surpassing greatness of the revelations”—revelations so marvelous the Lord gave him a “thorn in the flesh” to counteract his being overly elated and to keep him down to earth.

But allow me to wonder and wander a bit. Did the apostle also “see things that cannot be told, which man may not utter”? Does what was revealed to him consist of knowledge only, not sight? I’m inclined to believe Paul’s experience included unspeakable visual sightings, heavenly features so “out-of-this-world” he could not find human terms to describe them. Nor would the Lord allow him.

Whether my wonderings and wanderings are right or wrong, the fact is that God has prepared a glorious eternity for His children. If John, in Revelation, had been able to describe heaven as it actually is, we probably would not be able to comprehend it. It is not easy, perhaps even impossible, to comprehend celestial beauty beyond our terrestrial knowledge.

But one thing we do know, by faith we are able to see; by faith we know that God has prepared a glamorous and delightful future domicile for those who love Him. “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him” [Isa. 64:4 & I Cor. 2:9]. Praise His Holy Name!

 

[marks]

What an experience to be transported to God’s celestial domain—to be able to take an advance flight to God’s “headquarters!” Surely, the event must have been a foretaste of divinity. The apostle did not know whether he was enraptured in his body or in his spirit. He knew only that he was “caught up into Paradise” and heard things “man may not utter.”

In Jesus’ day, the Jewish community spoke of and believed in three heavens. 1] Earth’s atmosphere—air and wind, and where clouds assemble and move about; 2] Where the sun, moon, stars, and other heavenly bodies reside; and 3] Heaven or Paradise, the celestial abode itself. Paul said he was “caught up to the third heaven.”

Just two things.

Firstly, Paul said it wasn't him, did he lie?

Secondly,

2 Peter 3:4-13 KJV
4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Perhaps the "third heaven" is third in succession? Did this person visit the new creation?

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Firstly, Paul said it wasn't him, did he lie?

Or was speaking of himself in the third person just a literary device?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Or was speaking of himself in the third person just a literary device?

Bingo!

Was Paul speaking about himself in 2 Corinthians 12? | Verse By Verse Ministry International

Get the latest online Verse by Verse Bible teaching and materials

versebyverseministry.org

Paul spoke in the third person in 1Corinthians 12 to make a point to his readers about the dangers of pride

Paul's Vision - 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 - Reading Acts

When did Paul have his vision in the Temple?

readingacts.com

Paul’s Vision – 2 Corinthians 12:1-10​

Paul continues his boasting in 1 Cor 12, this time mentions a vision in which he was transported to the “third heaven.” We do not know when this vision occurred, and the way Paul describes it is hard to place in the book of Acts. He describes his experiences as a vision (ὀπτασία) and a revelation (ἀποκάλυψις). The first word is usually associated with a god allowing himself to be seen by a human, or allowing a human to see something usually hidden (BDAG). Although a little later than the New Testament, the Martyrdom of Polycarp used the word to describe a “trance.” Paul calls his experience on the road to Damascus a vision (Acts 26:19). The second word is Paul’s usual word to describe his revelations from God, usually in the context of salvation history or eschatology.

 

[Lambano]

The apocryphal Book of Enoch describes Ten Heavens. So, does Paul's mention of a "Third Heaven" implicitly confirm or endorse Enoch's cosmology?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

The apocryphal Book of Enoch describes Ten Heavens. So, does Paul's mention of a "Third Heaven" implicitly confirm or endorse Enoch's cosmology?

Great question....

How Many Heavens Are There In The Book Of Enoch? - Christian Faith Guide

In this article, I’ll discuss more about the Heavens, as mentioned in the Book of Enoch, as well as the functions of each of the 10 heavens.

christianfaithguide.com

The Book of Enoch describes 10 heavens, while the New Testament mentions only three heavens, perhaps because the New Testament is believed to have been inspired by God, while it’s believed that God didn’t inspire the Book of Enoch. As such, believers don’t consider the teachings or words in the Book of Enoch to be what believers should be guided by.

The link gives a description of each heaven in easy to understand wording.

As to Pauls mention of a third heaven... I have always been told that is where God lives.

I have never thought of any other as the others do not pertain to "US".

 

[marks]

Or was speaking of himself in the third person just a literary device?

I think this is the common understanding.

This is one of those passages that show the difference between myself and most people I know.

2 Corinthians 12:2-6 KJV
2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5) Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

He wrote plainly that for himself, he would only glory in his infirmities, and that this was another person. Was that truth?

He even goes on the say he'd like to glory (in himself), but that he won't.

I accept this as all being true.

Most people I know think these words are false, that Paul was lying about himself, to get this in there, while maintaining deniability. I don't think that of the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Let's look at the context of 2 Corinthians 11-12. Paul seems to feel the need to defend his apostleship.

1 I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness... (11:1a) 5 For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles.... (11.5) 16 Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, so that I also may boast a little. 17 What I am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also.... (11:16-18) Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. (12:1-2) 7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! (12:7)

Looking at the flow of thought from 11:1 through 12:7, it is very clear that Paul IS boasting about himself (knowing full well pride and boasting are sinful, which is one of the reasons I love Paul), and the revelations of the Third Heaven were given to him.

 

[Justaman]

Hello All
Forgive me for the length of this. But it’s hard to convey briefly. Thanks.

I have come to where the “third heaven” has become a central part of my thinking about my life.

My story starts with a simple decision to have a 14 inch rod surgically removed from my right leg that was inserted a year earlier when I broke it.

I had several surgeries before and came to know what to expect. This time was MUCH different.

I was prepped and taken to surgery where I was anesthetized. Moments after I went under I reawakened. It seemed like I suddenly “came to” in a totally black dark vast room. After a bit of confusion I realized I was conscious but cut off from the outside world. I was totally cut off from the outside world with no means to warn my surgeon. I was completely paaralyzed. Unable to move or speak.

I felt the tubes inserted down my throat and realized I was going to witness my own surgery. I mentally screamed that I was awake. …no one heard me. The horror struck me with what was about to happen. When suddenly my senses erupted in the searing pain of a scalpel opening up my leg.

What came next was beyond my explanation yet today. With my knee cap open and exposed. The surgeon opened my bone with a chisel. Each blow sending a lightening bolt of light and accompanying excruciating pain. I found myself beyond what I could mentally handle. I began screaming out to anybody-anything that would help me.


In the midst of this torture a voice came to me. Deep, old and seemingly wise. “Calm down. You’re all right”. I’m not all right I’m losing it I said or thought. The voice then said “Youmust learn about pain”. In a beyond frantic state I scream out “what do I have to learn about pain they’re killing me?”

In that instant went somewhere. Whether in my body or not I couldn’t tell. But I was removed totally from the searing pain. To say I wa dumbfounded would be an understatement. I was in a realm of a golden light. Fog like that made only the light visible. Nothing else to see.

The incredible thing was the awe that I felt. I can only describe it as the feeling I had when I witnessed the birth of my children. Like a power so profound it brought joyful tears to my eyes. There was a feeling of total love, of coming home to where everything was right. It felt natural. Not contrived of manufactured. Most amazing was there was no sense of judgement, this was just how it was. It was like I was summoned to learn some important to my being. Virtually indescribable. Beyond what I can convey.

The voice came to me again saying “Now, do you understand?” NO, no, I don’t understand. Instantly I was again transported (lifted?) to another realm. The same featureless golden light. The difference was this time the my sense of wonderment and awe was beyond my comprehension. The feeling of awe,rightness and un judging pure love was beyond my ability to comprehend. After experiencing this for a few moments I was again transported, lifted up? To yet an even higher realm.

Again there was only golden light Mothing else. But my senses, my being itself - I experienced what I can only saw as the true source of everything. Unbridled, pure love. The source of all creation from what I can comprehend. It was infinitely powerful, crushing almost like a power that I couldn’t withstand.

I felt myself dissolving into this place. Beautiful and infinitely loving. I was becoming afraid as I felt myself slipping into it. I wanted to go there yet the power was terrifying. Then the old voice came to me again. “Now, …do you understand?”

I was totally dumbfounded and confused. Whether I answered because I felt I had to give an answer, or something deep inside me responded, I said Yes. I understand. ( to this day this my response of Yes bothers me. The voice then told me, “This is the last time you have to go thru this”

I was left what seemed alone in the golden light again. The sense of awe and love had returned to what I can only call my normal life I live daily. But the incredible thing was a vision that was formed in the light.

I sphere appeared before me. Hovering there. After a few moments after taking in, a mass formed under it. The mass formed itself around the sphere and seamlessly encompassed it. I witnessed this for a moment when another mass formed and again molded itself around the outside of the first. The again the same thing occurred. The mass rose up from below and merged with this form. I remember the age like it was yesterday. I saw this image as me as the core. Surrounded by the three in which I was immersed.

A period of thoughtless time passed till I was suddenly being jarred by something. I felt like I was thousands of feet below the ocean with something calling me. My consciousness came back vaguely and realized it was the post op nurse trying to wake me. Her voice seemed concerned and somewhat frightened. Trying desperately.t wake me. I couldn’t breath and was struggling for air. She suddenly stopped, patted me and told me to just relax and sleep.

After having full consciousness I couldn’t comprehend what I went thru. Yet I didn’t want to tell anyone about it. Over the months I let a few people know about it. The one day I told my priest about it.
Mid discussion he raised his finger for me to stop. He ran off and returned holding the Bible. I recall his hands shaking as he turned thru the pages till he found Corintians12:2. READ THIS, READ THIS!!

I read it and was thunderstruck. I have to say my bible studies were non existent. I had never read or even heard at all of
Corinthians 12-2.

When I read it I realized I had the same experience that Paul told. How could this be? To this day o don’t have an answer. One thing is clear to me thiugh. When he said that he could speak of what he saw. It’s clear to me that there was nothing “Illegal or Forbidden”. It was Paul had no words that could possibly convey what he experienced.
I am also convinced that the theee heavens have nothing to do in any way with our physical realm. Not the eart, sky or stars. Paul was speaking of something beyond what we experience in our daily existence.

I feel now that we are more than what we realize. Yet such an infinitesimal part of the whole of reality. . I believe in the end, there is utter simplicity. And that it is love.