Just to start off- this is NOT a catholic/catechism bashing.I just have something to show, and something to ask.-------------------------------------------1 Corinthians 3:10-17: 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.--------------------1 Peter 1:6-7: 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:--------------------Daniel 12:10: 10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand--------------------------------Im not sure where I found these verses all grouped together- So please know this is NOT my study- nor did I place these verses together to act as if they support each other- I simply READ them.My QuestionHow did this idea of Christians works/deeds turn into another "Realm" or "spiritual holding cell" ever start?Is it biblical?Its almost like some teach this "testing of works" as a "central zone" between heaven and hell.By all means!---Keep Denominations Out of This- I just want to know if it is at all biblically supported.
Christians Works Tried by Fire
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(Red_Letters88;39211)
How did this idea of Christians works/deeds turn into another "Realm" or "spiritual holding cell" ever start?Is it biblical?Its almost like some teach this "testing of works" as a "central zone" between heaven and hell.
I am not sure what you are talking about with terms like "Realm" or "spiritual holding cell" or "central zone".If you means works, it is said best in James.Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? We are to produce fruit, cultivate the soil (mind), plant seed (God's Word), for the harvest of souls. Judgement can be payday. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Our righteous acts weave our heavenly garment.Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Our labor here in this flesh age does follow us.Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Treasures in heavenMat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
How did this idea of Christians works/deeds turn into another "Realm" or "spiritual holding cell" ever start?Is it biblical?Its almost like some teach this "testing of works" as a "central zone" between heaven and hell.
I am not sure what you are talking about with terms like "Realm" or "spiritual holding cell" or "central zone".If you means works, it is said best in James.Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? We are to produce fruit, cultivate the soil (mind), plant seed (God's Word), for the harvest of souls. Judgement can be payday. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Our righteous acts weave our heavenly garment.Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Our labor here in this flesh age does follow us.Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Treasures in heavenMat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Im not sure about some of those verse eitherBut it reminded me that God is a consuming fireHebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."This "consuming fire" is "God's glory present". God's "consuming fire" is the Holy Spirit that warms your heart, and protects you when the enemy comes against you. His Spirit will protect you exactly as God protected Daniel when he was in the Lion's den, or the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace. This consuming fire was symbolic, or to signify that God will protect His own. So to those that love Him this, consuming fire is our protection, but to those who are against Christ it will consume them and cause them to perish. Your works alone will not save you
(Red_Letters88;39485)
No, you have still missed the point I was getting to- isn't this the teachings of purgatory?
The bible doest really teach purgatory but there is a simular thing mentioned that is called the Gulf Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. We can't go your way and you can't come our way. Luke is making the entire clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. This gulf or chasm is from the Greek "Chasma"; It means "an impassable interval". The interval is of time and space. This is telling us that if you die hell bound and enter into that other dimension, there is no way that you can reenter back into this dimension again. What ever side of the gulf you are on when you die, that is the side you stay until judgment day. This space is talked about by the prophet Ezra, or in the Greek "Esdras" in the Apocrypha, in the II Esdras 7:78-87. Though it is rejected in our bibles today, it was in the original king James version of 1611, until the American and British Bible societies removed it. It interfered with some of their traditions, and thus had to go. But it was revealed to Ezra by God.(not part of scripture)II Esdras 7:78-80 "For about death, the teaching is: When the final sentence goes forth from the Most High that a man is to die, when the soul departs from the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it prays to the glory of the Most High; if it was one of those who scorned and did not observe the way of the Most High, and of those who have despised his law, and of those who hate those who fear God, such spirits shall not enter dwellings but wander about thence forth in torment, always grieving and sad, in seven ways."This means that when you first get to heaven and see the throne of God, it draws praise and glorifying the name of God. But to those that were like the rich man in Jesus parable, after they see what they have done while in their flesh body, it will send them directly to this place of torments, where there is nothing but grief and sadness on the other side of the gulf. So now it gives the seven ways to get to this place of grief.II Esdras 7:81-87 "The first way is that they have scorned the Law of the Most High. The second way is that they can no longer make a good repentance, so that they may live. the third way is that they will see the reward destined for those who have believed the agreements of the Most High. The fourth way is that they will consider the torment destined for them in the last days. The fifth way is that they will see that the dwelling-places of the others are guarded by angels in profound silence. The sixth way is that they will see that some of them will pass over to be tormented henceforth. The seventh way way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, is that they will waste away in shame and be consumed in disgrace, and wither with fear, at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they lived, and before whom they are destined to be judged in the last times."These are the seven ways and seven things that will be observed and cannot be changed prior to the judgment, and final destruction of those soul that reject our heavenly Father, the "Most High". So is there a burning hell? Yes, that burning hell does not consume thought until after the great white throne judgment, at the end of the Millennium age following the seventh trump. Many of those across the gulf at this time, did not have a chance to hear the Word of God, because there were not teachers of the truth. Some were taken in innocence, or for one reason or another did not have the chance to repent. Those souls will be taught in the Millennium age. However until that time comes, and this day of grace still exists, it is impossible to travel across this gulf spoken of in this verse. Nobody is sleeping in the ground at death, but they all are very much in God's presence in heaven.Let me add that just because this is not scripture does not mean we can not use it as a second wittness to futher our understaning of scriptureif it does not contradict his Word.
No, you have still missed the point I was getting to- isn't this the teachings of purgatory?
The bible doest really teach purgatory but there is a simular thing mentioned that is called the Gulf Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. We can't go your way and you can't come our way. Luke is making the entire clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. This gulf or chasm is from the Greek "Chasma"; It means "an impassable interval". The interval is of time and space. This is telling us that if you die hell bound and enter into that other dimension, there is no way that you can reenter back into this dimension again. What ever side of the gulf you are on when you die, that is the side you stay until judgment day. This space is talked about by the prophet Ezra, or in the Greek "Esdras" in the Apocrypha, in the II Esdras 7:78-87. Though it is rejected in our bibles today, it was in the original king James version of 1611, until the American and British Bible societies removed it. It interfered with some of their traditions, and thus had to go. But it was revealed to Ezra by God.(not part of scripture)II Esdras 7:78-80 "For about death, the teaching is: When the final sentence goes forth from the Most High that a man is to die, when the soul departs from the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it prays to the glory of the Most High; if it was one of those who scorned and did not observe the way of the Most High, and of those who have despised his law, and of those who hate those who fear God, such spirits shall not enter dwellings but wander about thence forth in torment, always grieving and sad, in seven ways."This means that when you first get to heaven and see the throne of God, it draws praise and glorifying the name of God. But to those that were like the rich man in Jesus parable, after they see what they have done while in their flesh body, it will send them directly to this place of torments, where there is nothing but grief and sadness on the other side of the gulf. So now it gives the seven ways to get to this place of grief.II Esdras 7:81-87 "The first way is that they have scorned the Law of the Most High. The second way is that they can no longer make a good repentance, so that they may live. the third way is that they will see the reward destined for those who have believed the agreements of the Most High. The fourth way is that they will consider the torment destined for them in the last days. The fifth way is that they will see that the dwelling-places of the others are guarded by angels in profound silence. The sixth way is that they will see that some of them will pass over to be tormented henceforth. The seventh way way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, is that they will waste away in shame and be consumed in disgrace, and wither with fear, at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they lived, and before whom they are destined to be judged in the last times."These are the seven ways and seven things that will be observed and cannot be changed prior to the judgment, and final destruction of those soul that reject our heavenly Father, the "Most High". So is there a burning hell? Yes, that burning hell does not consume thought until after the great white throne judgment, at the end of the Millennium age following the seventh trump. Many of those across the gulf at this time, did not have a chance to hear the Word of God, because there were not teachers of the truth. Some were taken in innocence, or for one reason or another did not have the chance to repent. Those souls will be taught in the Millennium age. However until that time comes, and this day of grace still exists, it is impossible to travel across this gulf spoken of in this verse. Nobody is sleeping in the ground at death, but they all are very much in God's presence in heaven.Let me add that just because this is not scripture does not mean we can not use it as a second wittness to futher our understaning of scriptureif it does not contradict his Word.
Is this gulf the same as Sheol???or something different??Catholics of course use these verses to proclaim purgatory.
Mighty Bear
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"In the whole land, declares the Lord,two thirds shall be cut off and perish,and one third shall be left alive.And I will put this third into the fire,and refine them as one refines silver,and test them as gold is tested.They will call upon my name,and I will answer them.I will say, ‘They are my people’;and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’"Zechariah 13:8-9 (ESV)
(Letsgofishing;39505)
Is this gulf the same as Sheol???or something different??Catholics of course use these verses to proclaim purgatory.
Yeah, I noticed. Thats why I was interested to look into this. This is from me, and ill try to keep it as biblical as possible...I believe sheol or hades to have been a spiritual holding cell of the old testament. Many times in the OT we see the phrase "the grave" which I believe is referring to sheol/hades.Also, after Christ died, we are told in 1Peter 3:19 that he preached to souls in "prison"...followed by 1Peter 3:20 where we are told that Christ saved 8 souls that rebelled and were disobedient in the days of Noah.So then I guess the answer to your question is... Does the description of this place resemble the story of Lazurus and the rich man?....I think they go hand in hand- only the gulf is what fixes the barriers of this place.What do you think? Is Sheol/Hades used now other than for holding unbelievers till White Throne?
Is this gulf the same as Sheol???or something different??Catholics of course use these verses to proclaim purgatory.
Yeah, I noticed. Thats why I was interested to look into this. This is from me, and ill try to keep it as biblical as possible...I believe sheol or hades to have been a spiritual holding cell of the old testament. Many times in the OT we see the phrase "the grave" which I believe is referring to sheol/hades.Also, after Christ died, we are told in 1Peter 3:19 that he preached to souls in "prison"...followed by 1Peter 3:20 where we are told that Christ saved 8 souls that rebelled and were disobedient in the days of Noah.So then I guess the answer to your question is... Does the description of this place resemble the story of Lazurus and the rich man?....I think they go hand in hand- only the gulf is what fixes the barriers of this place.What do you think? Is Sheol/Hades used now other than for holding unbelievers till White Throne?
shĕ'owl Pronunciation sheh·ole' (Key) feminine noun Root Word (Etymology)from H7592 Outline of Biblical Usage 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pita) the underworld
Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead1) place of no return2) without praise of God3) wicked sent there for punishment4) righteous not abandoned to it5) of the place of exile (fig)6) of extreme degradation in sinWe are told little about the gulf other than it can not be crossedbut it can be seen across as the story of Lazarus tells us but I would agree that it rings of some Purgatory similarities
(Red_Letters88;39584)
Yeah, I noticed. Thats why I was interested to look into this. This is from me, and ill try to keep it as biblical as possible...I believe sheol or hades to have been a spiritual holding cell of the old testament. Many times in the OT we see the phrase "the grave" which I believe is referring to sheol/hades.Also, after Christ died, we are told in 1Peter 3:19 that he preached to souls in "prison"...followed by 1Peter 3:20 where we are told that Christ saved 8 souls that rebelled and were disobedient in the days of Noah.So then I guess the answer to your question is... Does the description of this place resemble the story of Lazurus and the rich man?....I think they go hand in hand- only the gulf is what fixes the barriers of this place.What do you think? Is Sheol/Hades used now other than for holding unbelievers till White Throne?
I could agree with sheol being the holding place for nonbelievers. I couldn;t say that this is the same with us believer. Jesus himself said to the man dying next to him on the cross " today you will be with me in paradise"You brought up 1 peter 3:19-20. which is interesting, these verses are the best evidence for purgatory in my opinon. (I myself am not sold to the believe either.) 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Now prison is an interesting word to describe this place. This couldn't be hell asthe spirits got out, this couldn't be sheol as sheol was a place for the old testament saints not the disobediant spirits. So there has to be another place where souls can be forgiven/ purified so that they can enter paradise. this is the catholic defintion of purgatory.heres a previous thread on the subject if you want to look at ithttp://www.christianityboard.com/purgatory-t5223.htmlyour brother in christRyan Fitz
Yeah, I noticed. Thats why I was interested to look into this. This is from me, and ill try to keep it as biblical as possible...I believe sheol or hades to have been a spiritual holding cell of the old testament. Many times in the OT we see the phrase "the grave" which I believe is referring to sheol/hades.Also, after Christ died, we are told in 1Peter 3:19 that he preached to souls in "prison"...followed by 1Peter 3:20 where we are told that Christ saved 8 souls that rebelled and were disobedient in the days of Noah.So then I guess the answer to your question is... Does the description of this place resemble the story of Lazurus and the rich man?....I think they go hand in hand- only the gulf is what fixes the barriers of this place.What do you think? Is Sheol/Hades used now other than for holding unbelievers till White Throne?
I could agree with sheol being the holding place for nonbelievers. I couldn;t say that this is the same with us believer. Jesus himself said to the man dying next to him on the cross " today you will be with me in paradise"You brought up 1 peter 3:19-20. which is interesting, these verses are the best evidence for purgatory in my opinon. (I myself am not sold to the believe either.) 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Now prison is an interesting word to describe this place. This couldn't be hell asthe spirits got out, this couldn't be sheol as sheol was a place for the old testament saints not the disobediant spirits. So there has to be another place where souls can be forgiven/ purified so that they can enter paradise. this is the catholic defintion of purgatory.heres a previous thread on the subject if you want to look at ithttp://www.christianityboard.com/purgatory-t5223.htmlyour brother in christRyan Fitz
(Letsgofishing;39775)
I could agree with sheol being the holding place for nonbelievers. I couldn;t say that this is the same with us believer. Jesus himself said to the man dying next to him on the cross " today you will be with me in paradise"You brought up 1 peter 3:19-20. which is interesting, these verses are the best evidence for purgatory in my opinon. (I myself am not sold to the believe either.) 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Now prison is an interesting word to describe this place. This couldn't be hell asthe spirits got out, this couldn't be sheol as sheol was a place for the old testament saints not the disobediant spirits. So there has to be another place where souls can be forgiven/ purified so that they can enter paradise. this is the catholic defintion of purgatory.heres a previous thread on the subject if you want to look at ithttp://www.christianityboard.com/purgatory-t5223.htmlyour brother in christRyan Fitz
Dont let this upset you, its just how I see the catholic understanding of this topic...Re-read all of what I posted and compare it with the bible- you will see there an example of our works being tested as metals are.Understanding that helps a lot- its just a way of telling us how our worthless works will be scimmed off the top and thrown out.Catholics act like Jesus' one time deal- of defeating death, and the shedding of his blood- ISNT ENOUGH.I have a big issue with that.Nothing you do will ever EVER be good enough for heaven- except through the one who already paved the road for you.
I could agree with sheol being the holding place for nonbelievers. I couldn;t say that this is the same with us believer. Jesus himself said to the man dying next to him on the cross " today you will be with me in paradise"You brought up 1 peter 3:19-20. which is interesting, these verses are the best evidence for purgatory in my opinon. (I myself am not sold to the believe either.) 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Now prison is an interesting word to describe this place. This couldn't be hell asthe spirits got out, this couldn't be sheol as sheol was a place for the old testament saints not the disobediant spirits. So there has to be another place where souls can be forgiven/ purified so that they can enter paradise. this is the catholic defintion of purgatory.heres a previous thread on the subject if you want to look at ithttp://www.christianityboard.com/purgatory-t5223.htmlyour brother in christRyan Fitz
Dont let this upset you, its just how I see the catholic understanding of this topic...Re-read all of what I posted and compare it with the bible- you will see there an example of our works being tested as metals are.Understanding that helps a lot- its just a way of telling us how our worthless works will be scimmed off the top and thrown out.Catholics act like Jesus' one time deal- of defeating death, and the shedding of his blood- ISNT ENOUGH.I have a big issue with that.Nothing you do will ever EVER be good enough for heaven- except through the one who already paved the road for you.
Mighty Bear
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"In the whole land, declares the Lord,two thirds shall be cut off and perish,and one third shall be left alive.And I will put this third into the fire,and refine them as one refines silver,and test them as gold is tested.They will call upon my name,and I will answer them.I will say, ‘They are my people’;and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’"Zechariah 13:8-9 (ESV)"I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see."Revelation 3:18 (ESV)
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