Conversation with An Atheist

[Stumpmaster]

@Mancunian -

Hey… just a mention, may be or not of your interest to consider…

I have a daughter that was born profoundly deaf, (3rd child) and of course teaching regular daily things was challenging, which paled in comparison of trying to teach her about God / Jesus. Fortunately she learned to read very young and the hundreds of trips to the library and thought I would go broke buying her Toys Books that she constantly wanted more and more.

Point…trying to teach her About God/ Jesus was a fail. She could not relate. Huff at the attempts. Said it was like trying to make her hear, and made no sense.

We were in a resale shop one day. She had a stack of books picked out. I glanced through the books, checking for appropriate material… and to my surprise saw a book, called:
A Case for Christ.
She read it, and for her it made a turning point impact. It didn’t turn her into some kind of mini-prophet or such, but did something to her turn about her consideration / perspective.

Don’t know if you have heard of it… really could be easily read in a few hours, inexpensive.

Just sharing.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

View attachment 90328

Wasn’t aware of the movie. Thanks.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes I think that existence implies that there must have been a creative force behind it, but I wouldn't necessarily assert that whatever it was still exists.... Maybe it does IDK.

I'm of the opinion that if the creative force/God specifically wanted a relationship with mankind it would have created the conditions for mankind to appear millions of years sooner than it did.
I'll never understand why that a God who loves a species that is created in it's own image would go through all of the rigmarole of evolution?

We know that evolution by natural selection is the accepted scientific theory of our existence..
Even if you don't agree personally, there are plenty of Christians worldwide that do, and I don't know how they square that circle.

We are fearfully and wonderfully made........perhaps it took that long to make us into HIS image. Old saying, that Rome wasn't built in a day....much less the whole universe and human persons made in the image of an unfathomable God, I would think.

Anyhow the natural man can't perceive the things of God.........nobody receives Christ (His Spirit) through the natural mind. It is a matter of your heart/spirit, not your fleshly brain. I suspect you are probably getting in your own way (and God's) by trying to come at this too hard with the intellect. Need to quiet your busy mind and let it be at rest to receive. You can even ask the Lord to help you with that.

It is either believe in your HEART and receive Him or don't believe.........choose ye this day who you will serve. Don't think too hard Ask and you will be answered; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened unto you. I love this passage:

Act 17:24-28

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might FEEL after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jericho]

Can I prove God exists? No. Can I give plausible reasons to believe that God exists? Yes. The problem is, no amount of reasons or evidence will ever suffice. Ultimately, it's a matter of the heart. People who believe in God do so because their hearts are receptive to God. It all comes down to faith because neither of us can "prove" God exists or that He doesn't exist. Even the atheist has faith in something.

I will, however, offer Pascal's Wager: If God is not real, then nothing is lost by believing. If God is real, then everything is lost by not believing. It's infinite reward vs infinite loss. Who then has more to lose? To quote another saying: “If Christianity is true, nothing else matters; if Christianity is false, nothing matters.”

The Christian faith has been described as a room with an elephant in it...with the lights turned off. People venture in and grope in the dark for what they have been told is an elephant. One person grabs hold of the trunk of the elephant and says to everyone hey, an elephant is long and feels like a big hose.

There's truth in that. We all have our theological and eschatological differences. Though, as Christians, we all agree on the fundamentals, or at least we should. The problem is, the Bible does not tell us everything. It gives us some revelation but not the whole revelation. We are left to fill in the gaps as best we can. As Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly." The problem is, we often come to erroneous conclusions and beliefs based on what we don't know. That has led to endless conflicts and disagreements. If everyone knew the absolute truth about everything, the world would be a very different place.

 

[Wrangler]

Well, I think my time here has been well spent.
I've seen the extreme views and the more liberal ones.
I want to thank you all for your contributions, I need to study more that's for sure and maybe open my mind to things that I've never really considered.
A special thank you to @Wrangler for giving me the opportunity to voice my opinions without the usual response, and good luck to you all in the future.

Chris

Chris,

That sounds like a good bye. I hope it’s not. I hope you continue to make positive contributions to our rich forum - even if you don’t ever embrace the Baptist Convention of 1878. You are loved by people here, not because you are good, but because God is good.

Peter

 

[Gottservant]

Sometimes being an 'atheist', is the best way to stop thinking about something - that's going to kill you anyway!

 

[Mancunian]

Hey there my friend;
Judging the existence or nonexistent of God based upon the bickering among some who claim to be His followers is illogical.
Sorry; that may seem harsh, but it is a truth.

The single greatest truth in all of the Bible is not found in the 4 Gospels.
It is tucked away in the book of Hebrews.
It says, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

I am not going to try and convince you of God's existence. God doesn't even do that. He simply says "Try me and see if I am trustworthy ".

What I am going to do is ask you to have a little grace for Christ's imperfect followers. Their failures are not the fault of Christ. In fact, their failures are the best illustration you have that proves WHY Christ died and rose again on the 3rd day.

I'm not judging God's existence by listening to Christians, that would be a little bit silly considering that Christianity isn't the only religion that I could listen to, that would equate to judging if the loch Ness Monster exists by listening to people who say that the Monster exists because there is a book that says it does.
I would have to explore other avenues to explain the ripples on the water, that's just me.

Christians bickering amongst themselves just reinforces my view that the Bible is a can of worms.
If it was clear and concise and easily understandable (which is what you'd expect from something that is capable of creating a universe) then Islam wouldn't exist for a start...
Mormonism wouldn't be a thing.
Scientology.... Cough cough.

 

[Mancunian]

People tell me that the Bible is the word of God.
Just for info, I've started at the beginning again.... I've ignored the genocide and got to the temptation of Abraham.
It's always played on my mind that a God that is capable of creating a universe needed validation from Abraham.
How his bloodline benefited from his blessing and how the story repeated later with a blind father choosing which son was favourable.
Kind of reminds me of Cain and Abel....

The themes in the Bible say more about the authors than God...
I'm nearly at Exodus, I'll update you when I've read it.

 

[Mancunian]

Sometimes being an 'atheist', is the best way to stop thinking about something - that's going to kill you anyway!

I never stop thinking.

 

[JimKnox]

I'm not judging God's existence by listening to Christians, that would be a little bit silly considering that Christianity isn't the only religion that I could listen to, that would equate to judging if the loch Ness Monster exists by listening to people who say that the Monster exists because there is a book that says it does.
I would have to explore other avenues to explain the ripples on the water, that's just me.

Christians bickering amongst themselves just reinforces my view that the Bible is a can of worms.
If it was clear and concise and easily understandable (which is what you'd expect from something that is capable of creating a universe) then Islam wouldn't exist for a start...
Mormonism wouldn't be a thing.
Scientology.... Cough cough.

1. You start with a faulty premise.
2. You make an unwarranted assumption.
3. You create a strawman.
All three of these are logical fallacies upon which your argument is based.

Reframe your argument.
1. The Bible is difficult for the unregenerant mind because it comes from the Mind of the Infinite.
2. The Bible is self validating because it is spiritually discerned.
3. Because the Reader must be spiritually regenerate to understand the Spiritual Truths of the Bible, the Unregenerant MUST be reborn by the Spirit of God Who gave it.
4. The Natural Man CAN NOT understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned.
5 Finally: ALL Unregenerant people WILL make a mess of Scripture.
Mormons are not born again.
Mohammedans are not born again.
Scientologists are not born again.
Jehovah Witnesses are not born again.

ALL individuals who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh are NOT born again.
You MUST be born of God to understand the things of God.
Dogs do not understand a man because they are not a man.

 

[Mancunian]

1. You start with a faulty premise.
2. You make an unwarranted assumption.
3. You create a strawman.
All three of these are logical fallacies upon which your argument is based.

Reframe your argument.
1. The Bible is difficult for the unregenerant mind because it comes from the Mind of the Infinite.
2. The Bible is self validating because it is spiritually discerned.
3. Because the Reader must be spiritually regenerate to understand the Spiritual Truths of the Bible, the Unregenerant MUST be reborn by the Spirit of God Who gave it.
4. The Natural Man CAN NOT understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned.
5 Finally: ALL Unregenerant people WILL make a mess of Scripture.
Mormons are not born again.
Mohammedans are not born again.
Scientologists are not born again.
Jehovah Witnesses are not born again.

ALL individuals who deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh are NOT born again.
You MUST be born of God to understand the things of God.
Dogs do not understand a man because they are not a man.

My argument is based on the Bible not being the word of God.
My argument is based on the Bible being the word of man.
My argument as I will demonstrate, is based on facts and not hearsay.
My argument is based on verifiable evidence.

I'm only coming to the end of Genesis.... What fun we'll have when we unpick Exodus and the Moses myths.

 

[Stumpmaster]

My argument is based on the Bible not being the word of God.

You venerate humankind, as capable of inventing such an inspired work.

 

[NayborBear]

My argument is based on the Bible not being the word of God.
My argument is based on the Bible being the word of man.
My argument as I will demonstrate, is based on facts and not hearsay.
My argument is based on verifiable evidence.

I'm only coming to the end of Genesis.... What fun we'll have when we unpick Exodus and the Moses myths.

Here's a mo better way to read the Bible:
Kinda "skim" reading until you come across a verse or verses where God is "directly quoted!"
Should you have a "Red Letter" edition? It's easier to read where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is "directly quoted.
Not saying this will happen to you or anyone else that does this.
But? Maybe? Just MAYBE? Whilst skimming and reading you may just "sense a presence" of Someone peering over your shoulder and smiling!
But DO the O.T. first!
Guess I don't need to say how I know this eh?

 

[Lizbeth]

My argument is based on the Bible not being the word of God.
My argument is based on the Bible being the word of man.
My argument as I will demonstrate, is based on facts and not hearsay.
My argument is based on verifiable evidence.

I'm only coming to the end of Genesis.... What fun we'll have when we unpick Exodus and the Moses myths.

1Co 2:9-14
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Faith is a gift from God, as the bible says. It is not of our own lest any man boast. When we receive Christ through His Spirit, understanding of the word comes through Him. Until then the natural man and his carnal mind are in darkness....having no light to see/hear/understand by. Our sins have separated us from God..........that is why the natural man can't perceive Him. But when we receive Jesus, by Him we are reconciled, ie, rejoined/reconnected, to God, and thus begin to actually perceive Him and have entered into a living two-way relationship with Him, whereby He reveals Himself and reveals His word and speaks to us to guide, encourage or admonish us, etc.. It is a miracle when the Lord does this, literally. I know because it happened to me, and that is what takes place with all who know Him. His sheep know His voice. He is real, but it is through our heart/spirit and faith that we know Him, not by means of intellectual knowledge through our carnal brain. Our mind receives light and kind of catches up after the heart/spirit first receives it.....it needs to be renewed.

 

[JimKnox]

My argument is based on the Bible not being the word of God.
My argument is based on the Bible being the word of man.
My argument as I will demonstrate, is based on facts and not hearsay.
My argument is based on verifiable evidence.

I'm only coming to the end of Genesis.... What fun we'll have when we unpick Exodus

You will NEVER find what you are looking for that way.
You have no facts, my friend.
You will never experientialy know that water is wet until you step out in faith and put your foot IN the water. You can only prove water is wet by experience.
The Bible is a spiritual book written by a Spiritual Being.
Once again I will tell you that which you are stubbornly refusing to address.
The natural man (you) CAN NOT UNDERSTAND the things of God.
You MUST be born again.
A blind man remains in the dark until SOMEONE lights his darkness so he can see. Until that blind man puts his trust in the One who has promised him LIGHT, he will forever remain in darkness. If he is stubborn and refuses the Light, he will forever be blind.

You MUST be born again of the Spirit.
Ignore this Truth to your peril.