Covenant comparison and the results of breaking

[the stranger]

Lev. 26:15-17 If instead you reject My statutes and if your soul abhors My ordinances -- and so break My covenant, I will in turn -- set My face against you.

Heb. 10:28-29 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the, testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of Gog and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has insulted the spirit of grace --- and if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

N.A.S.

So do we not have an obligation, a contract, a covenant, to be in obedience to the Holy Spirit Who dwells in us and Gods word? It amazes me how many abuse the word of God and the spirit of grave under the banner of so called freedom today. We were bought with a price and we are not our own but are slaves to whoever we serve.

God bless

 

[FHII]

Spirit of grave, huh? Very unfortunate typo!

If we have freedom, then we are free. We are the Lord's free man. And the Lord said I am not bound by the Law.

 

[the stranger]

Lol. Bad cell phone... Yes, we are free, but only when being led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[pom2014]

We are all bound by the law.

But that it's keeping was simplified through the two great commands. In keeping those we're keeping the law.

If you don't follow those two you're a rebel.

 

[williemac]

One broke the covenant of law by breaking the law. One breaks the covenant of grace through unbelief. (saved by grace, through faith) Furthermore, if one is trying to keep the covenant of grace by keeping the law, he is fallen from grace. We dont fall from grace by sinning. We fall from it through the attempt to justify oursleves apart from grace. Heb.10:39..."we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of theose who believe to the saving of the soul."
By the way, the two commands of the new covenant are found in 1John 3:23. They are 1: believe on Jesus, 2: love one another.

A well kept secret of bible interpretation is in the recognition that Jesus came to the people while they were under the covenant of law and He used the law to do that which it was given, to confine them under sin. Giving someone a command they cannot fulfill confines them under sin. Jesus did that on more than a few occasions. The new covenant did not commence until after His death and in fact, the understanding of entering this covenant by way of faith was kept hidden, until after His death.

Rom.8:1 speaks of no condemnation for those who walk according to the spirit. But it has a "therefore" in it. It is a conclusion to that which came before it. And it is further expalined in Rom.8:5 that those who live according to the spirit have their minds set on the things of the spirit. Putting this together with the "therefore", we can go back and see what things Paul was mindful of. He was in agreement with the law of God but also in acknowledgement of his inability to satisfy it due to the law in his members warring against the law of God and of his mind.

While we do have the new man and the new nature in us through justification by faith, it is a mistake to think that our obedience to moral law is connected with our justification for life after the fact of having received it. John 5:24 assures us that we will not come under judgment and have passed from death to life. The only way a person could possibly lose his life after having received it is if he either gives it back through unbelief (Heb.10:39), or comes under judgment. The latter won't happen according to Jesus, so this gives our enemy only one strategy he can use against us. His agenda is to undermine faith and neutralize grace in our hearts.

Life is given as a free gift. Those who are still trying to get it another way are in danger of not getting it free. Jesus told His disciples.." Freely you have recieved. Freely give". Paul said we have received the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things freely given by God (1Cor.2:12). The first and most important obedience to the Holy Spirit is to accept His assurance. He is given to us as a token and guarantee of our inheritance (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14) . We could not be guaranteed something if it was conditional to our own performance. Think about that.

Life stays with us the same way it came: as free gift, given by grace, received by faith. Jesus desperately wants to give His loved ones rewards on His judgement seat and will do what He can and must to cause us to bear fruit and increase our fruit. Don't go mistaking this with the threat to reject us altogether. All whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. Chastening is correction, not rejection.

He will not break His covenant with us. It is based on a promise to remember our sins and lawless deeds no more. Some may take this as a license to sin. But a license is by another term: permission. We do not have permission and never will. But the wages have been placed on Jesus.

The way that we insult this act of love and gift of grace is to take the wages off of the cross, off of Jesus, and place them on oursleves through unbelief. This is what disobedience to the new covenent is. Since the two covenants are accessed differently, the disobedeince of them cannot be the same. Doing the right things has always been important. What has changed is the reason for doing them. Those who insist on behavioral obedience for the same reason as the former covenant, are placing themselves out of this one and back into the one that has ended. The sacrifices of that one are no more. The Sacrifice of this one are made null and void through the works of the law for justification. Think about these things, friends.

 

[the stranger]

Thank you very much Will for that long thought out reply. Some of your points are valid. Sadly however, though you acknowledge we will never have permission to sin, you believe nothing we can do can train wreck our faith. I can tell you from someone who has walked away from Christ before and after returning faced many times where the Lord made it clear that I had to choose Him or sin, that I cannot agree with your thoughts on that line though certainly it is by grace we are saved and not by works but as James makes clear, saving grace and belief comes with actions of appreciation and obedience. We follow in a new way now, as you have stated, that of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

You quoted Romans 8, a chapter I love. Paul states there if by the Holy Spirit we putting to death the things of the flesh we will live (eternally) but if living by or for the flesh we will die (eternally) and in chapter 11 he states if we continue in the kindness of God He will continue to receive kindness from. If not, however, we will be cut off. V.22 This seems like common placement such as 2 Timothy 2:12. In fact, the warning and examples of loosing faith are all throughout scripture. Some of the best known atheist are ex Christians. Now one could say they were never saved anyways but if so how can we promise eternal salvation to everyone that says the prayer of repentance? God bless brother.

 

[williemac]

Thank you very much Will for that long thought out reply. Some of your points are valid. Sadly however, though you acknowledge we will never have permission to sin, you believe nothing we can do can train wreck our faith. I can tell you from someone who has walked away from Christ before and after returning faced many times where the Lord made it clear that I had to choose Him or sin, that I cannot agree with your thoughts on that line though certainly it is by grace we are saved and not by works but as James makes clear, saving grace and belief comes with actions of appreciation and obedience. We follow in a new way now, as you have stated, that of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

You quoted Romans 8, a chapter I love. Paul states there if by the Holy Spirit we putting to death the things of the flesh we will live (eternally) but if living by or for the flesh we will die (eternally) and in chapter 11 he states if we continue in the kindness of God He will continue to receive kindness from. If not, however, we will be cut off. V.22 This seems like common placement such as 2 Timothy 2:12. In fact, the warning and examples of loosing faith are all throughout scripture. Some of the best known atheist are ex Christians. Now one could say they were never saved anyways but if so how can we promise eternal salvation to everyone that says the prayer of repentance? God bless brother.

Thank you for your thoughts as well. My reaction to your reference to James is that it is quite possible you have not studied his comment in its context. James was responding to his disappointment in his readers' display of love towards one another. This is a vital piece of understanding. Another one is in the examples he used when saying faith without works is dead. The first example was Abraham's willingness to kill his own son in showing he believed God's promise concerning his son and in God's ability to fulfill the promise in spite of the sacrifice being asked of him.

The second example was Rahab the harlot in her helping God's messengers, showing that she also believed the promise of God that He would spare her if she helped them. In neither case, was there any reference to moral behavior. It was simply about how what we do outwardly reveals what we believe inwardly. Back to my comments, many people obey moral commands to get themselves or keep themselves saved. They are in fact showing that they don't believe God, not that they do. Case in point, Rom.10:9,10. Salvation comes from faith and confession. No mention there about moral behavior, though it should follow in some fashion after the fact, not leading to it.

The confusion as I have shared is not that I deny we should bear fruit, but in the reasons we bear it. We are not trying to get something from God in what we do, but rather are responding to what has been given to us and received by us. That is the difference between the two covenants. Read again John 5:24 and tell me how it applies to your understanding, or at least consider how it differs from it.

But in reply to the rest of your reply, I long ago noticed in Revelation that John saw a multitude that no one could number, in looking into the future. This is a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would be numbered as the sand of the sea. It is unfortuante that I am about to go away for a few days and cannopt share more, but I want to suggest something in parting. We are told that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Many are taught and teach that faith is the requirement for salvation. I say that the bible says differently. Faith is merely a tool, a method, a means by which we receive something that is offered. The qualification for eternal life is rather, humility. It is the confession of sin that results in the forgiveness of it. Repentence simply means to change one's mind. It doesn't mean to change one's actions unless a context specifically refers to the action. Most people think of the word in terms of changing behavior. In most cases the context is about a change of thinking.

Blessings, brother.

 

[the stranger]

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. upon your return in which I wish you the best in your travels, can you tell me if my summery of what you believe is correct?

You believe that once we accept Christ truly we will not fall back into sin and our morals will began to change for the better based on our new heart and because of that our actions will not cause us the loss of salvation because if we are truly saved we will continue to humble our hearts with repentance when we do sin and will continue to draw closer to Christ thus moral actions are only what follows our heart thus are not commands we have to worry as we is true followers follow the Holy Spirits leading thus are not under law. Is this correct in your basic belief?

I agree with some of this but this way of thinking seems to take away free choice upon believing and it also draws into question why we as Christians are warned over and over about staying holy and working out our own salvation leading to eternal life.
John 5:24 the word used for believe pisteuo has the meaning of a continues belief and dependence and not of a one time event. Compare with john 15:2,6. All throughout scripture we are taught to be holy is God is holy. We are shown examples of those who have fallen from faith. We are warned what will happen to us if we do the same. A prideful heart, temptation and a beginning of disbelief is what starts our downfall, though even demons believe. James 2:19 thus showing it is more than just believing but obeying is well. This has always been the case even when the ot is put in the nt. Rom 12:20, 2 cor 6:17. Even just taught the same and really got after the leaders and rebuked His followers when needed. While our works do not cause us salvation or the taking away of salvation alone it does reveal where our heart truly is with God. Ask for any references and I will be happy to provide.
Be safe and talk with ya hopefully a bit more when you make it back.

 

[williemac]

Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. upon your return in which I wish you the best in your travels, can you tell me if my summery of what you believe is correct?

You believe that once we accept Christ truly we will not fall back into sin and our morals will began to change for the better based on our new heart and because of that our actions will not cause us the loss of salvation because if we are truly saved we will continue to humble our hearts with repentance when we do sin and will continue to draw closer to Christ thus moral actions are only what follows our heart thus are not commands we have to worry as we is true followers follow the Holy Spirits leading thus are not under law. Is this correct in your basic belief?

Thank you for your inquiry. I would not really put things into those words.I feel that one point of reconciling us through the sacrifice for our sins is so tht we can change our focus and our motives. Paul said " not having my own righteousness which is from the law". We need to get away from any kind of idea that we can produce righteousness from our own resources. There are many doctrines and innuendos coming at the church which imply that moral behavior is connected in some way, either small or large, to justification. However, this connection is what I understand is the very thing that makes it about our own righteousness. You use the phrase "fall back" into sin. The suggestion I get from this is that a person is required to quit sinning as part of his justification for the gift of life. By its very definition, it is obedience to moral law, and fall into the category of " my own righteousness".

The repentance that leads to salvation is not about not sinning. It is about changing one's mind. When a person receognizes his sin, acknowledges it as the reason he needs a savior, confesses it before God, and turns to Jesus for forgiveness and reconciliation, he has repented according to the gospel requirement. The result is the new birth, which is the receiving of a new spirit man within, one that is born of the seed of Christ (born of the Spirit) and is made in His righteousness (Eph.4:24) At this point he qualifies for and hopefully is filled with the Holy Spirit.

Many are taught and preach that the Holy Spirit is given so that we can have the power and ability to behave ourselves. My impression is that this came along with the new birth, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul said " put on the new man". This is not the Holy Spirit. This is our new nature.

Our new man is expressed outwardly by way of one main emphasis; love. This is our focus and our motive. I have found that God's love, and even His power is not some mysterious force that is placed inside us. His love enters our being by way of our experience of it. Welove Him because He first loved us. Those who are forgiven much, love much. I am going to suggest that those who are living thier lives still trying to secure themselves eternally, have not fully experienced the love that the sacrifice of Jesus has brough to mankind. Therefore thier motive for behavior is tainted with self serving motive. This is not love in its full definition. Love does not seek its own.

God therefore, in giving us the tools we need to genuinely love others, took away the need for us to serve our own interests by our motives. If we are being "warned" as some insist, to keep ourselves in good standing by our moral behavior and our obedience to moral standards, we are in no uncertain terms obeying the law for righteousnes....which is nothing less than our own righteousness.

Most who are using the word "warning" are imlying that God is still in the business of judging us according to the law. Read again John 5:24.

The only exception to that that I can find would be the warning given in Luke 18:10-14. The two men praying in that commentary came to God from two different perspectives. The one who went away justified was not the one doing everything right. He was the one who knew he didn't qualify, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. The other man connected his works with his right standing before God. He exalted himself, therefore in God's eyes, and was abased. This is what true humility looks like and this is what disqualifying pride looks like. Why aren't people coming here and exhoriting us to heed that warning?

The warning we have to keep ouselves from sin is the same warning we give our own children to obey their parents. When they violate this instruction, it is taken into context. Some things are done quite innocently. Others are more deliberate. The level of chastening reflects the individual incident. However, the operative word here is "chastening". It is not disqualification. Jesus promised He would chasten us. He also promised He would not judge us (John 5:24). We can glean from that passage that the judgment He is speaking of there is condemnation unto death. The promise includes that we have passed from death to life.

Your suggestion that this passage implies a continual belief and dependance is correct as long as behavior is not implied. If it is implied..... Taking it to its logical conclusion, putting it in plain language, it would be saying that we will not be judged if we keep behaving oursleves. Thats exactly what the law says.

Grace is the giving of a free gift. Faith is the receiving of it. The minute we no longer accept that life is free, is the same instant we have turned from faith. Continual faith is continuing to believe that the life we have was and always will be a free gift, one that is offered and maintained by the righteous act of ONE MAN, the obedience of ONE MAN, and the sacrifice of ONE MAN.

This lets us off the hook of trying to justifiy oursleves by what we do and gives us the opportunity to turn and love others freely with no tainted motive but rather simply the motive , the true motive of love, which is to benefit the one loved. Self benefit is self serving.That is the function of the new covenant. To give us the tools to love and serve others with the love of God. The love that is fully secure and fully aware of having nothing to lose.

Jesus rose up from his seat and washed His disciple feet....knowing where He came from and where he was going....fully secure and in full understanding of who He was and that He had everything to give and nothing to lose. Do you think for a moment He will deny us the same kind of equipment to do what He asks of us? Paul repeated this in Philippians 2:5-8, telling us to have the same mind that was in Christ. In so many words it reveals that He humbled Himself from the position that He knew He held.

Therefore we do not start our journey with God in a low place and work our way upward. Wer start at the top, fully joint heirs with Jesus, fully equipped with His nature, in full good standing and assurance, with a guarantee of our inheritance, seated positionally with Him in heavenly places. From this position we humble ourselves as He did and serve one another, washing one another's feet. We are not warned to do these things, we are equipped to do them. "Warning" is the worst word I have seen in motivating the saints. We love Him because He first warned us? That is so old covenant, my friend.

 

[the stranger]

Thank you Will. Certainly you have clearly stated where you stand and for what reasons. For many of your thoughts I am in agreement. However, using just Romans 6-8 we can clearly see your side of things (mainly 7) but also a bit expanded to include moral behavior. I would like briefly to go tbrough selected verses of such.

6:1 Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be. 12 therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts 14 for sin shall not master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 16 you are slaves to the one you obey, either in sin resulting in death or of obedience resulting in righteousness.

Chapter 7 tells us much of your thoughts in regards to the law and sin, and our continued struggle with sin. 24 wretched man that I am. Who will set me free from the body of this death. (we notice Paul always wanted to do right. 19) 8:1 no condemnation for those in Christ. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ has set you free from the law of sin and death. .. HOWEVER.

8:13 if you are living according to the flesh, you must (will) die but if by the spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 17 we are heirs of Christ if indeed we suffer with Him.

11:21 if God did not spare the natural branches neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, Gods kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

I will end there my good brother. All of this can be crossed referenced throughout the bible many times over. Yes, we are saved by grace and not by works. As you have stated, one who has been forgiven, much, is also one who will show appreciation much. You see brother, you are very correct on living by the Holy Spirit and in love, the two commandments, but in following those requires moral correct decisions. If we live in sin we are not living in love, right? Did not Paul say else where he puts his beats his own body (not physically) into submission? So we are required to live moral lives but this is and can only be done through and by the Holy Spirit.

I do agree we need not worry about an act or struggle in our lives to cause God to leave us, though James says temptation that we heed to can lead to death, however, as a matter of the heart we need to continue in the vine. It is the hardened heart that there can be no forgiveness for. Not an act of sin. If our heart is following Christ so will be our actions but if our heart begins to cater to the flesh, again, so will our actions. Isa 63:10 says they grieved His holy spirit and He became their enemy. May it never be with us my friend. Thank you once again for your patience in me in trying to understand exactly where you stand. God bless my good brother.

 

[williemac]

Thank you Will. Certainly you have clearly stated where you stand and for what reasons. For many of your thoughts I am in agreement. However, using just Romans 6-8 we can clearly see your side of things (mainly 7) but also a bit expanded to include moral behavior. I would like briefly to go tbrough selected verses of such.

6:1 Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be. 12 therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts 14 for sin shall not master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 16 you are slaves to the one you obey, either in sin resulting in death or of obedience resulting in righteousness.

Chapter 7 tells us much of your thoughts in regards to the law and sin, and our continued struggle with sin. 24 wretched man that I am. Who will set me free from the body of this death. (we notice Paul always wanted to do right. 19) 8:1 no condemnation for those in Christ. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ has set you free from the law of sin and death. .. HOWEVER.

8:13 if you are living according to the flesh, you must (will) die but if by the spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 17 we are heirs of Christ if indeed we suffer with Him.

11:21 if God did not spare the natural branches neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, Gods kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

I will end there my good brother. All of this can be crossed referenced throughout the bible many times over. Yes, we are saved by grace and not by works. As you have stated, one who has been forgiven, much, is also one who will show appreciation much. You see brother, you are very correct on living by the Holy Spirit and in love, the two commandments, but in following those requires moral correct decisions. If we live in sin we are not living in love, right? Did not Paul say else where he puts his beats his own body (not physically) into submission? So we are required to live moral lives but this is and can only be done through and by the Holy Spirit.

I do agree we need not worry about an act or struggle in our lives to cause God to leave us, though James says temptation that we heed to can lead to death, however, as a matter of the heart we need to continue in the vine. It is the hardened heart that there can be no forgiveness for. Not an act of sin. If our heart is following Christ so will be our actions but if our heart begins to cater to the flesh, again, so will our actions. Isa 63:10 says they grieved His holy spirit and He became their enemy. May it never be with us my friend. Thank you once again for your patience in me in trying to understand exactly where you stand. God bless my good brother.

If you will notice, Jesus made a few digs towards the Pharisees concerning appearances. He used terms such as whitewashed tombs, and dead men's bones (inwardly). He knew and understood from Godly perspective something called cause and effect. The first covenant revealed that the avenue of going after the effect was ineffective. Sin, in all its harm, is not a cause. It is a symptom. Attacking and removing a symptom is a temporary solution. Unless the cause is corrected, the symptom will just pop up again...over and over.

The purpose of God in His dealing with mankind is not to correct the symptom ad nasium, as the law merely did. The new covenant is not about just making mankind behave. It is about doing away with the species altogether and creating a new one. There are two time frames involved in it. The first one is the one we are in. We still are dealing with the effect, the symptom. As long as we have this treasure (the new creation) in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7), the body of sin, the flesh, the old man, is still part and parcel of our sphere of influence and our experience.

But the church in various pockets and degrees, seems to confuse the temporary with the eternal. And in doing so, confuses the reasons why we deal with the temporal. As I keep insisting, the truth revealed is that our responsibility in dealing with sin has earthly ramifications only. It is not connected with the solution to the sin issue from the point of view of causality.

Case in point, why did you stop at Rom.11:22? The very next verse is this: "And they also, if they do not continue in UNBELIEF, will be grafted back in, for God is able to graft them back in again".

Again, this is about faith. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. What did he believe? The promise. The new covenant is based on a promise. We do not hold the solution to the sin issue. God does. He said He would do it. Jesus said He would destroy the works of the devil. He said He would fulfill the law. Rom. 5 reveals that our standing before God is due to the work, obedience, and righteousness of ONE MAN.

How do we continue in His goodness? There are obviously two versions of that answer in the church. One version is that we continue in faith, continuing to believe life is a free gift. The other version is that we continue in it by way of our own input through our own determination to not sin. But that second version denies Rom.11:23.

The fruit that we are told to focus on is not the abstaining from sin, but rather the outward manifestation of His love. When Jesus welcomes His beloved into His kingdom, will He say "well done My good and faithful servants, for you managed to not sin" ? No, He will applaud all the benevolent acts that they were engaged in. Fruit is not about what we don't do, but what we do,do.

There is no denying that Paul included in his letters, the exhortation to abstain from sin. But it was always accompianied with all the assurances and doctrines of grace. He took great pains to clarify that our behavioral aspect is not connected with our justification for life.

John mentioned three things in the world: the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1John2:16). FYI, these were the three categories of the three temptations of Jesus. Sin deals with the lust of the flesh and the eyes. The pride of life deals with humility vs. pride. This was the area of the first iniquity, that of Lucifer. This is the area that breeds self exaltaion and self righteousness and self justification. It is the only one of the three that was not removed or paid for at Calvary. Therefore it is the focus of the enemy, who first violated it. It is the basis of faith. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Faith only receives from God through humility.

Hence the warning in Luke 18:10-14. The positive side of that is the promise. Stay humble. The moment we connect our outward behavior with our justification, we enter into the danger zone, (as important as our outward behavior is).

Finally, I want to share that sin happens for a reason. The flesh is addicted to it. Pul, in Rom.7, revealed his mindset. He said that he was in agreement with the law. But he also spoke of another law in his members warring against the law of his mind. His conclusion? When I sin it is no longer I who sin, but sin in me. He disconnected his outward failures with his true identity in Christ. And he connected this fact with his mindset.

Fast forward to Rom.8. It starts with a conclusion ...."therefore". Your version?..."However" Notice the difference. Paul did not use the word "however". The context explains itself. He said in vs.5 that walking in the spirit was a mind set. Those who quote Rom.8:13 seem to always do it in complete denial of almost everything else in that chapter or the previous ones. Living according to the flesh starts with the mind, and is done by way of a mindset. If you will notice vs.9, Paul said " you are not in the flesh but in the spirit.....why?...."IF INDEED THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU". Walking in the Spirit is done by way of our mindset, not by way of our actions.

The good news is that the Spirit of God is in us regardless of how well we bear fruit. (Some 100, some 60, some 30).

 

[the stranger]

Let me try to briefly state agreements, disagreements and we can go from there. I fully agree sin is an effect and not the cause. I fully agree we struggle with sin till we die. I fully agree we can come back to God with a repentive heart as you stated. (grafted back in) I fully agree it is only allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us that we will and can change. I fully we through the spirit need to operate our structure in life with love being first.

These next things I question. You believe those who are lead by the Holy Spirit live growing moral life in love as they walk I hope yet you seem to separate love from moral actions. How can this be? If sin is an effect of our born nature and through the spirit we put to death the sinful deeds of the body, how do we or can we separate moral actions? Not that moral actions get us to heaven but they are a result of being lead by the Holy Spirit. Does not 1 John state those who belong to God, living by the spirit, does not continue to sin? I am trying hard to understand your separation here while knowing we are not saved from our moral efforts but in knowing we live moral loving lives because of Christ love and forgiveness for us. Not a matter of earning our way but a matter of showing a change of heart, if in fact, one has had a change of heart. If we continue to sin after our cleansing yet refuse to be indwelled with the spirit may we not find our selves with more demons than before with an empty temple per Matthew or will we not be insulting to the spirit of grace and be worse off than before we were saved via Hebrews?

Does not a change of heart reflect our actions and if not do we have a change of heart?

We agree on much brother but the separation you seem to put on living by the Holy Spirit and in love with moral behavior puzzles me greatly. It is all over scripture. Has someone who ask for forgiveness from stealing from you steals over and over again showing signs of being repentive? Just because we are saved does this mean we need make no more effort is we work out our own salvation via Paul? Bottom line. Where does personal decisions and accountability come into play in a Christians life? Never?!!.

 

[williemac]

Let me try to briefly state agreements, disagreements and we can go from there. I fully agree sin is an effect and not the cause. I fully agree we struggle with sin till we die. I fully agree we can come back to God with a repentive heart as you stated. (grafted back in) I fully agree it is only allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us that we will and can change. I fully we through the spirit need to operate our structure in life with love being first.

These next things I question. You believe those who are lead by the Holy Spirit live growing moral life in love as they walk I hope yet you seem to separate love from moral actions. How can this be? If sin is an effect of our born nature and through the spirit we put to death the sinful deeds of the body, how do we or can we separate moral actions? Not that moral actions get us to heaven but they are a result of being lead by the Holy Spirit. Does not 1 John state those who belong to God, living by the spirit, does not continue to sin? I am trying hard to understand your separation here while knowing we are not saved from our moral efforts but in knowing we live moral loving lives because of Christ love and forgiveness for us. Not a matter of earning our way but a matter of showing a change of heart, if in fact, one has had a change of heart. If we continue to sin after our cleansing yet refuse to be indwelled with the spirit may we not find our selves with more demons than before with an empty temple per Matthew or will we not be insulting to the spirit of grace and be worse off than before we were saved via Hebrews?

Does not a change of heart reflect our actions and if not do we have a change of heart?

We agree on much brother but the separation you seem to put on living by the Holy Spirit and in love with moral behavior puzzles me greatly. It is all over scripture. Has someone who ask for forgiveness from stealing from you steals over and over again showing signs of being repentive? Just because we are saved does this mean we need make no more effort is we work out our own salvation via Paul? Bottom line. Where does personal decisions and accountability come into play in a Christians life? Never?!!.

I understand your logic. Just wanting to respond to Heb.10:26. If it is taken out of its context it can certainly seem like deliberate sin is the insult to the spirit of grace. But the context both before and after that verse is overwhelmingly about what was accomlished through the sacrifice of Jesus and how it is superior to the old sacrifices which were taken away. The willful sin is in the context of sinning outside of the covenant in His blood through rejection of His sacrifice by way of unbelief. The conclusion to that chapter is a major clue to this. The author was writing to the Hebrews to convince them of faith in Jesus. In 10:18, he states " where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin".

Now, some would argue that if a believer sins, remission is not applicable.If that were the case then vs. 14 is nonosense, which says He has perfected FOREVER, those who are being sanctified. The removal of our sins is not the same as forgiveness. Forgiveness was the preclude to our new birth. It was God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Those who respond and are reconciled are they who have thier sins removed (remission). Removed from what? From the record.

Many in Christ have not considered why people sin. They simply look at it as a matter of deliberate disobedience. However, this is shallow and incomplete. The world is messed up. It is full of negative and harmful input. It is relentless. Jesus said to guard the heart, for out of it spring the issues of life. Without going into detail, I can say that through a revelation from God from my questions and studies, the heart is actually what the world calls the subconscious mind: the centre of our thinking. (heart means centre...ie. heart of the matter, heart of the earth).

Why we are told to guard the heart is because what goes into it shapes our beliefs and desires, and understanding, and motives, and intentions. All these things are found at the heart level. And faith is as well. It is the centre of our thinking. And anyone who studies the subconscoius knows that what resides there doesn't come out or change all that easily. It is open to the power of suggestion as well.

Most Christians can change a lot about their lifestyle easily and are willing to do so. But there are some deeper and more stuck issues in many people that bind them up and they seem powerless to change. Do we condemn them for these? Maybe, but does God? Does He break a bended reed? Does He snuff out a smouldering wick? Our fault in this is to oversimplify what causes certain behaviors. Many if not most Christians are bearing fruit in some degree or another but also have issues, some minor, some major, that are clinging on stubbornly. We excuse them when we have them but do we afford the same grace to others? Do we kick them when down or come to their aid? What would Jesus do?

In John's day, some things may well have been a little more cut and dry. But scripture has allowed for the things I am speaking of as well. Don't go confusing the two. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. Is this a license? No, it is a comfort to those who are struggling. If you are talking about someone who has no conscience about his actions, then I doubt you are talking about a real born again Christian. On the other hand, don't forget God's promise to Abraham, and the evidence John saw in his revelation. A crowd that could not be numbered. Did the gate stay narrow, or did Jesus solve that issue? Did He not come to bring a change?

 

[the stranger]

Certainly my brother we have a different way of looking at what seems to be clearly written but I might dive into Hebrews a bit later with more time. Certainly it is true that what comes out and what goes in. We must drink from the living water daily or we will dry out. I want to say however, yes, there is a difference between Christian struggles and a rebelling heart. Does not God know and search our hearts? John states we should pray to bring our brothers back again from sin but states the sin that leads to death, this we should not pray for. What is this sin if not the sin of a rebelling heart? Note most of the NT was written to the churches or brothers thus all warnings are placed on those within the new covenant. I will try to get a little more in depth when I can. Thank you for your thoughts on this topic. We can only learn from trying to understand differences of opinion and for this reason I do certainly hope to learn some more. God bless and thanks again.

 

[williemac]

Certainly my brother we have a different way of looking at what seems to be clearly written but I might dive into Hebrews a bit later with more time. Certainly it is true that what comes out and what goes in. We must drink from the living water daily or we will dry out. I want to say however, yes, there is a difference between Christian struggles and a rebelling heart. Does not God know and search our hearts? John states we should pray to bring our brothers back again from sin but states the sin that leads to death, this we should not pray for. What is this sin if not the sin of a rebelling heart? Note most of the NT was written to the churches or brothers thus all warnings are placed on those within the new covenant. I will try to get a little more in depth when I can. Thank you for your thoughts on this topic. We can only learn from trying to understand differences of opinion and for this reason I do certainly hope to learn some more. God bless and thanks again.

One thing I would like to add about John's letter. What he said was he who is born of God does not sin, nor can he. He did not say can sin, but shouldn't. He said not possible to sin. There was a man in Corinth who was in sin and Paul's remedy for them was to deliver the man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved. (1Cor.5:5). The flesh is the old man, the body of sin. The old man is considered positionally dead already, crucified with Chist. The spirit is our new man, created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24). This new man is that which is born of God and cannot sin.

It should be understood that there are two deaths in the bible. Jesus advised in Math.10:28 to not fear they who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. This is the first death; the death of the human body; the flesh. In the second death, which applies to the lost, both body and soul are destroyed in the lake of fire. Math.10:28 translates Gehenna as hell, but Gehenna is a reference to the lake of fire, not hades.
I say this because when John says there is a sin that leads to death, I wouldn't be so hasty to assume that he is speaking of the second death. It is more likely that he is referring to the same thing as Paul, the destruction of the flesh. This does not translate to the loss of salvation.

The sin nature of man was dealt with at Calvary. Not just the individual sins. Not just sins committed before salvation. The whole gamet, including deliberate sin. Those under the law who committed sin were covered by the sacrifices of the animals. It was only those who were caught that were dealt with by human judges. But all sin was covered by the sacrifices. It boggles my mind that with all that the author of Hebrews disclosed about the superiority of the sacrifice of Jesus, some Christians are willing to settle for a covenant where His death actually does less for the people than the blood of bulls and goats. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2Cor.5:19). He solved the sin of mankind by settling the account on His own Son. Sin is sin, God did not leave any of it out of the sacrifice of His Son. This includes deliberate, willful, unintentional, past sins, future sins....the whole nine yards.

It is only those who refuse the offer of reconciliation that are not elegible for the new birth. This is a humility issue and a faith issue. God gives grace to the humble. It doesn't say He gives grace to the well behaved. Good behavior is not to be minimized or swept under as unimportant. But it is not in the category of what qualifies one for life. Grace abounds where sin abounds. Grace is not removed by sin. Jesus said to forgive 70x7..over and over if necessary. Do you think He will not do the same?

As for Hebrews, when the author says we are perfected forever (the new man of course), I think we should not tamper with that revelation.
In summary, we should do the right things, but for the right reasons.