Crucified With Christ

[stunnedbygrace]

Or as Epi likes to say, there are ditches on both sides of a road.

 

[Not me]

When you say "all the tension of not understanding", I don't understand what you mean, lol.

It is only through that very tension that I ever DO understand anything.

It's sort of like walking on a tightrope. In the balance, there's no tension. Both sides of the pole are still because you have it in the middle. If you move more to either side of the pole with your grip, your weight favors to one side or the other, and you have lost that calm balance and will fall.

The weight on one side is I will never leave or forsake you. The weight on the other side is to remain in trust (abide) or you will be cut off. You can't walk correctly without the tension and weight of both sides of the pole.

Meant no disrespect, as your understanding words are.

Be blessed in your searching after Him, Not me

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I didn't feel any disrespect from you...I was just conversing.

 

[Not me]

I didn't feel any disrespect from you...I was just conversing.

Thank you, as we feed our personal relationships with Christ and grow up and into Him in all things.

Be blessed in Him, Not me

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I can only see where Paul lived by the faith of another in this verse. What theological statement was paul making?

I came back this morning to read this thread again. I do that a lot with your threads. :)

Can I live by the faith of another?

What does faith mean? To me, it means: trusting God.

So then, to say I live by the faith of Jesus, to me this means: Jesus trusted God and I live by this trust He had in God. But that doesn't make any sense to me.

I understand that Jesus, who is God, became human, and that after He became human He had to rely on God for everything. Yes, it sounds bizarre, but the opening of John tells us that Jesus was and is God.

The point I snag on is when people say, I don't live by my own trust in God but I live by Jesus' trust in God. It falls apart for me there and I can't make sense of it.

I am the one who has to learn the obedience of trust. Many times a day I exercise my trust. For example, when it looks like I should panic, I have to refuse that and say: no, I trust Him. He said not to worry about money, He said He knows what I need and will see to it.

So how is that me living by Jesus's trust in God? It seems I am the one who has to trust Him and learn the obedience of that trust rather than painic and unbelief of what He has said. I have to learn to trust, no matter what things look like to me.

Have I made sense here?

 

[soul man]

I came back this morning to read this thread again. I do that a lot with your threads. :)

Can I live by the faith of another?

What does faith mean? To me, it means: trusting God.

So then, to say I live by the faith of Jesus, to me this means: Jesus trusted God and I live by this trust He had in God. But that doesn't make any sense to me.

I understand that Jesus, who is God, became human, and that after He became human He had to rely on God for everything. Yes, it sounds bizarre, but the opening of John tells us that Jesus was and is God.

The point I snag on is when people say, I don't live by my own trust in God but I live by Jesus' trust in God. It falls apart for me there and I can't make sense of it.

I am the one who has to learn the obedience of trust. Many times a day I exercise my trust. For example, when it looks like I should panic, I have to refuse that and say: no, I trust Him. He said not to worry about money, He said He knows what I need and will see to it.

So how is that me living by Jesus's trust in God? It seems I am the one who has to trust Him and learn the obedience of that trust rather than painic and unbelief of what He has said. I have to learn to trust, no matter what things look like to me.

Have I made sense here?

Yes that does makes since. Look at the verse again, Paul said he lived by the faith of Jesus Christ. Most translations of scripture have taken that out and it reads! faith in Jesus Christ. Why? Because our beloved translators I suppose could not understand Paul's plain speaking to a point. Look at it like this, you have Christ in you by a birthing, the moment you believed. Believers have to start there, they can't keep thinking it is something that happens some other way. Paul says in the verse it is the life of Christ that became his life now, in spirit, in soul you must grow to understand what is or has happened in spirit. Dividing soul and spirit will be the key to the scriptures. We want to lump everthing together and try to find out how Christianity works, impossible. Here are a couple things to look at in scripture in your sincere search to know things of God

(1) study the cross, there is no perfect way to study other than as the HolySpirit leads you. Use a good concordance to cross reference scripture, and look at the greek and hebrew.

(2) study the two natures that exsist. Track the sin nature and see where it came from and what happened to it on the cross. Look at the new nature, which is the nature of God and find out how we live by that nature.

(3) Study righty dividing the word of truth. You may want to read a good book on it but it must fit into our understanding, very keystone. And dividing soul and spirit. What happens here is you begin to understand when a srcipture is dealing with soul, which is always growing, or spirit which is always completed by the cross. It is totally up to a believer to move on in God as we know. But it leads to everything the scriptures portray as being true because Christ is really what we see in the scriptures. We look for this and that in the scriptures trying to figure it out (speaking from my own experience) and it was in Christ in me all the time. Bless you dear one.

(4) in my edit I wanted to add a 4th because it all came together Paul said by revelation. Look at Paul, again and again he gives us his understanding of "the revelation of the indwelling Christ." The moment God revealed Christ in Paul, and our gospel comes from Paul's revelation of the indwelling Christ. You can find that in Galatians chapter one. Paul's revelation is not of an end time event or some other thing, Paul's revelation is of the indwelling Christ. He calls Christ in him "the gospel." We need to pay attention to Paul here in Galatians chapter one because because he lays out what the gospel is; a person. Praise God

 

[Not me]

@soul man & @stunnedbygrace;
If you wouldn’t mind me butting in???

I think you are on to something here soulman with your the birthing being or starting our walks of faith towards God. Seeing how this birthing is the Divine Nature come to birth in us. This Divine Nature naturally wants to gravitate to and trust it’s like. So this Divine Nature, which is our Christ in us, is His faith living it’s life out in and through us. Henceforth we are told to yield to this new life in us.

Anyways my cent and a half’s worth....be blessed in Christ, Not me

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't know, that might make sense to others...Jesus is God. I live by Jesus' trust in Himself? Doesn't make sense to me. My mind can't grasp it.

 

[Nancy]

I don't know, that might make sense to others...Jesus is God. I live by Jesus' trust in Himself? Doesn't make sense to me. My mind can't grasp it.

Putting it that way, no, it makes no sense at all : Wouldn't our own faith in God be the same as Jesus faith in God? Like yourself, and all Christians really, we too have to trust Him for every single thing. It only gets tough to take when He does not work as WE see fit, lol. Took me a looooong time to even understand what "faith" really was, it never used to compute with me. Probably because the 1st non CC Church I ever attended explained faith as simply sitting in a chair with no questions asked about if it would hold me or not. Silly

 

[marks]

Thanks for commenting. Compared to all scripture we have that is a real stretch to say he won't remain in you, (my paraphrase) unless you do something to keep me. What do you do with all the scriptures? I'll never leave you nor forsake you" is really a statement people cannot get around. I have often wondered why Christians have such a hard time accepting their salvation? It is a bit of a mystery for the knowledge of good and evil.

Truly trusting in God is hard for many I think. There is such a strong desire in man to seek the assurance from one's self, to be able to look at one's self, and say, See! I'm righteous! I live a good life! So I hope God will receive me.

But to confuse that with redemption, where we, like the man praying, beat his chest, Have mercy on me a sinner! come to God not, "See, here, look God! I brought you something!" Ugh! Rather, I have nothing God! Save me! And He does. Completely and fully!

Much love!

 

[marks]

If Paul describes a proximity to Christ he experienced that doesn't make it automatic for all his readers. It is religion that does this sort of thing.

That's not what Paul says.

He didn't say I feel close to Christ. He said, I'm co-crucified with Christ. This is not a statement of "Location", it is a statement of what has been done.

Automatic for all his readers? Obviously not. Many have read Paul without faith in God.

Romans 6 teaches that if you've been immersed into Christ, you'be been immersed into His death. Co-crucified with Christ is part of being born again, and is true for all Christians.

Paul goes on to say that he was dead, but still alive, like Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life, and the one believing in Me, even dying, will live, and he who lives and believes in Me will never die.

I've been co-crucified with Christ, and yet I live, and yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life I live, I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

The life I live, I live by the faith of the Son of God . . .

Faith of the Son of God is written in the Genetive Case, which means that this is faith that is possessed by, or has as it's source, Jesus. The live I live, I live by Jesus' faith.

Christ lives in me, and Christ is filled with all faith, and I am alive because I am joined to Him. In being born again we are immersed into Christ, dying with Him, raising to life with Him, now, by the Spirit, we cry, Abba! Father!

In the Septuagint, in Habbakuk, the just shall live by faith, in the Septuagint it reads, the just shall live by my faith.

We believe, we receive, and we die in Him, and we raise with Him. Now His life is our life. His righteousness is our righteousness. His power is in our lives, and His faith is in us. And by His faith in us, we live.

It's all from Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is it that trust sounds too simple to be true? Or is it that trust sounds like weakness to us? Like...no, I would rather trust in my own hopes and plans than give up all my care for whatever He might want for me?

I've has both of those thoughts to wrestle with. Trust sounds way too simple! And to me it can feel like weakness.

But both of those thoughts are my lack of trust, not my objection to trust, when I really think about it. We like what we can see. But yes, like you say, give up all my care for whatever he might want.

Oh, and I like your summary of all things, in God saying, simply, Trust Me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The joy in you will increase when you see there are no “tensions” in truth.

Just so.

I've found these perceived conflicts are resolved by having a correct understanding. Perceived conflict, what so many call "tension", for a softer word, show the need for deeper study.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The weight on one side is I will never leave or forsake you. The weight on the other side is to remain in trust (abide) or you will be cut off. You can't walk correctly without the tension and weight of both sides of the pole.

This is a good example, but when you look at it, both cannot be true.

If you are cut off, then He is no longer with you. Doesn't that mean there must be something different being said in one of those places?

I'll leave you, but I'll never leave you?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He said both things. You say they can't both be true. So you have a problem. I say they are both true. You say they can't both be true. You can continue the way you are going, but it is not the right way.

 

[marks]

He said both things. You say they can't both be true. So you have a problem. I say they are both true. You say they can't both be true. You can continue the way you are going, but it is not the right way.

They Are both true, but they aren't true in a way that conflicts with each other. If there isn't harmony, then a full understanding is not reached, in my opinion.

I believe the correct understanding of Scripture will show that each passage means exactly what it says, but it may not be the first thing we think it means.

It can't be true that Jesus will leave us, but will never leave us.

Since He's promised to never leave us, I suggest that the cutting off that you are referring to doesn't mean that the Jesus Who promised to never leave us, it doesn't mean that He will.

When we go back to that passage, about those cut off, to see, does it really mean that some who are born again will die again. I don't believe that's what it's talking about.

Both passages are true, but only in a way that doesn't cancel out the other.

Much love!

 

[Not me]

Just so.

I've found these perceived conflicts are resolved by having a correct understanding. Perceived conflict, what so many call "tension", for a softer word, show the need for deeper study.

Much love!

I believe you are correct, it was what I was trying to bring forth; once truth/scripture is understood the way it was meant to be understood, which is spiritually or by experience, which is life, all the opinions fall to the wayside.

I used the word that was presented hoping to not make a issue of the word itself but the truth couched therein.

Be blessed marks as He each and every day draws us closer to Him, Not me

 

[Blueberry]

My understanding is that I am to have faith in God (the Father), this faith empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit, made possible by the wrath satisfying atonement of Christ on the cross. My understand is that Christ went to be at the right hand of the Father and he sent the Comforter, the person of the Holy Spirit to be our strength, teacher, the One who illuminates the Scriptures to us, etc.

We reckon our old dead natural man nailed to the cross 'in Christ' spiritually. It is a spiritual problem after all. So in taking up our cross we must lay down our human will and doubt and unbelief in God. Because when we react to things in our life as if God may have 'missed it' on this one or He must not understand how it hurts me then we demonstrate less than total belief in His goodness, omnipotence, love, etc. We attempt to assassinate His Holy character! So at least partially in doubt and not fully in faith.

So does God have faith in God? Is this possible? Can God be unseen to omnipresent God? If faith is the substance of things not seen, but hoped for (not 'American' hoped for as if we are uncertain, but the opposite. Expectant. This expectation gives up the hope to go on, if you will.) then would God truly ever need faith?? Maybe even sinless humanity partially caused a veiled access between Jesus incarnate and the Father? One that the Holy Spirit bridged. One that the Holy Spirit does still for us now.

So in that way we are possibly operating somewhat as Christ did in pursuing the Father's perfect will and exactly as Paul did in that the Holy Spirit empowers us to enter into God's presence via Christ's shed blood. For God to operate through us and in us. Have relationship with us. Cloaked in Christ's righteousness. God's Own.

It seems that some of the confusion may come from sometimes using the Persons of the Trinity sometimes as interchangeable and sometimes not. All are God. Perhaps Jesus' incarnation I would not say disrupted the Trinity, but could that veil have somewhat been present for Christ too?? Not able to see quite as clearly as he can now sitting at the Right Hand? For us it is our sinful human natures, but God came and met with Adam and Eve is a way it seems He would then leave their immediate presences (become veiled?). Even in the pre-Fall state when they should have been humanly perfect.

It is the faith Jesus (God) has given us. It was 'His faith' (gift) to give. Did He, does He, ever need it for Himself? Did He use faith somehow via the Holy Spirit in his incarnation that He now gives to us as our Helper? And we use that faith? Faith in God empowered by the Spirit purchase by Christ.

I find myself falling into the snare of thinking about how I think about God instead of thinking about God. Talking to Him. I often wonder how I ever speak of Him in the 3rd person, when um, "I'm right here!" He could say at anytime. Even now.

My understanding is that we must use God's gift of faith to even be able to believe in Him. We must trust as much for our sanctification. He will make all provision required. As was said when we trust and depend on our own human strength then we find our weaknesses. When we forsake our power or rights to trust then we find strength in Him. Either He empowers us or He does it Himself as a loving Father. And this is somewhat like a weakness. It is a weakness of MY will versus His will.

Having been let down by people and letting others down myself, it can be hard to trust anyone, even God sometimes, as fully as He desires and demands us to do. I feel as though I fail. Which forces me to become prostrate before Him as a wretch with nothing to offer Him of my own. Which makes me think that I may just pass!?

Peace Out

Sorry I missed you Nancy and Helen. I post and run!