Deeper meanings in the Word

[faithfulness]

Welcome here faithfulness. :)

When a ship is caught on a sandbar it needs a tow to get free of it and be towed into open water. The ship that is stuck casts a rope, which is quite small (insufficient to pull the ship but easy to cast) to the tugboat, in order for a big towing line to be then be pulled to the ship and tied to it. Then the tugboat can pull the ship free.

It is like that in that we cast out our own small faith into the mist...with all our own strength...until it is caught by Jesus Christ so that we pull in the much larger faith of Christ which is able to pull us into His kingdom life. Our faith is then transformed into His faith....from faith to Faith. Without Christ and His faith...we can go nowhere. But with Christ towing us...we go where He goes...under His power no longer our own.

Just an example...:)

The "like" feature is not enough to express my appreciation for the simplicity of your example!

 

[APAK]

The faith OF Christ was worked out in Jesus' humanity as He walked in this Earthly place. It is available to us as we enter into Him. We put on His victorious humanity when we put on Christ.

Do not compute Episkopos…::)

APAK

 

[Episkopos]

Do not compute Episkopos…::)

APAK

I'll try saying it this way...Just as there are two steps of grace...so Christ is to abide in us AND we are to abide in Him. His divine nature is within us at regeneration...but not His perfect walk..as Paul attests to in Romans 7. Without abiding in Christ we don't have the victory over the flesh that Jesus imparts to us through His resurrection.

Jesus went through death and came out victorious...for US. In Him we have victory over sin and the power of death that causes us to sin. So then we give thanks to Jesus for His victory that WE can walk in by faith. Grace through faith!

IOW...we only enter His life by abiding in Him...

If we have received the initial grace that is Christ IN us...then we are to then go to God (the throne of grace) to get the fullness of grace and power.

As you had posted on another of my threads..

John 1:16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

It should really say...His fullness is grace on top of grace.

 

[APAK]

I'll try saying it this way...Just as there are two steps of grace...so Christ is to abide in us AND we are to abide in Him. His divine nature is within us at regeneration...but not His perfect walk..as Paul attests to in Romans 7. Without abiding in Christ we don't have the victory over the flesh that Jesus imparts to us through His resurrection.

Jesus went through death and came out victorious...for US. In Him we have victory over sin and the power of death that causes us to sin. So then we give thanks to Jesus for His victory that WE can walk in by faith. Grace through faith!

IOW...we only enter His life by abiding in Him...

If we have received the initial grace that is Christ IN us...then we are to then go to God (the throne of grace) to get the fullness of grace and power.

As you had posted on another of my threads..

John 1:16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

It should really say...His fullness is grace on top of grace.

Episkopos:

I guess I need to amplify and clarify my words on the spirit, grace and faith, what spirit and what is in the heart and is growing after conversion.

This area concerning spiritual conversion/ salvation is difficult to describe in words let alone describe it as a detailed descriptive symbolic drawing. We are speaking of the nature of the spirit of God and we cannot avoid describing it someway.

God provides us a part of his spirit or should I say more precisely a portion of the spirit of Christ, of a portion of the truth and grace for us to bond to, to cling to, conform to and abide in, through faith. (1 John 4:13). This portion of Christ, his life, is literally within us and growing by the grace of God alone, and not Christ alone.

We do not have the entire spirit of Christ, ever. No human can with their tainted human nature. We grow into the life of Christ.

Within the Father’s spirit, Jesus’ spirit grows within us if we walk and carry our cross as Jesus, as part of out cooperation with God. God provides us more of his grace and with his open gift of increasing our faith – that holds us into and to become more like Christ.

Yes, I did quote John 1:16 before and it seems now it was from a different perspective than you thought.

(Joh 1:16) Of his fullness we all received, with grace upon grace.
(Joh 1:17) For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (NEV)

Now ‘this’ continuing grace does NOT originate from Christ (except from his joint grace from the Father-son work to the cross). It comes/came THROUGH Christ who possesses the fullness of grace, FROM God (It is HIS FULLNESS only).

As in Verse 17, the Law came THROUGH Moses from the source God Almighty, grace and truth came THROUGH Jesus (from God – the source)

I’m not a trinitarian. I’m considered a Unitarian, if and only if it is described correctly after my inspection.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos:

I guess I need to amplify and clarify my words on the spirit, grace and faith, what spirit and what is in the heart and is growing after conversion.

This area concerning spiritual conversion/ salvation is difficult to describe in words let alone describe it as a detailed descriptive symbolic drawing. We are speaking of the nature of the spirit of God and we cannot avoid describing it someway.

God provides us a part of his spirit or should I say more precisely a portion of the spirit of Christ, of a portion of the truth and grace for us to bond to, to cling to, conform to and abide in, through faith. (1 John 4:13). This portion of Christ, his life, is literally within us and growing by the grace of God alone, and not Christ alone.

We do not have the entire spirit of Christ, ever. No human can with their tainted human nature. We grow into the life of Christ.

Within the Father’s spirit, Jesus’ spirit grows within us if we walk and carry our cross as Jesus, as part of out cooperation with God. God provides us more of his grace and with his open gift of increasing our faith – that holds us into and to become more like Christ.

Yes, I did quote John 1:16 before and it seems now it was from a different perspective than you thought.

(Joh 1:16) Of his fullness we all received, with grace upon grace.
(Joh 1:17) For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (NEV)

Now ‘this’ continuing grace does NOT originate from Christ (except from his joint grace from the Father-son work to the cross). It comes/came THROUGH Christ who possesses the fullness of grace, FROM God (It is HIS FULLNESS only).

As in Verse 17, the Law came THROUGH Moses from the source God Almighty, grace and truth came THROUGH Jesus (from God – the source)

I’m not a trinitarian. I’m considered a Unitarian, if and only if it is described correctly after my inspection.

Bless you,


APAK

Bless you Apak! :)

 

[Episkopos]

Here is a harder one that shows the depth of the word. It involves Proverbs 7. This chapter about the "strange woman", which, on the face of it, is about physical adultery and a warning against it. It concerns they who lack "understanding." More on this later.

Prov. 7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

The Hebrew shows a deeper meaning on a spiritual level. (Should we be surprised at this?) It involves false teaching. Spiritual error.

In Hebrew the words for "strange woman" or...isha zarah... אשה זרה is in the feminine form... and this is an obvious play on words that refers to, and closely resembles, another biblical idea, that of "strange fire"...esh zarah. אש זרה which is the same idea but in masculine form.

In order to get "strange woman" we only have to use the feminine form of "strange fire"...by adding a "hey" (meaning "behold") to the word for "fire". Play on words like this are very common in the OT and are one of the more common ways to convey deeper truths. God likes these. He loves to hide the truth in plain sight. :)

This refers to the dangers of false doctrine...with many warnings and allusions in the chapter to that effect.

If a man has no understanding of the word...then he can be easily "flattered" into believing a lie. He falls prey to what sounds good to the ear..but is meant to deceive and take one into spiritual adultery.

it would take a lot of explaining to get into all the hidden references in the chapter that shows that there is a hidden spiritual message underlying it. How many care to know more about this?

I wonder if anyone wants to try looking for them... :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Now ‘this’ continuing grace does NOT originate from Christ (except from his joint grace from the Father-son work to the cross). It comes/came THROUGH Christ who possesses the fullness of grace, FROM God (It is HIS FULLNESS only).

We do not have the entire spirit of Christ, ever. No human can with their tainted human nature

Acts 6:8
[8] And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Ephesians 3:19
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hab.2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

וצדיק באמונתו יחיה


Whose faith? A man's own faith? Does a righteous man live by his own inherent faithfulness? This statement has a deeper meaning...a deeper one than the Jewish faithful could comprehend at the time. And that is that we are to live by the faith of Christ. His faith...not just our own. His faith takes us to His life...just as our own beliefs cause us to live life on the human level. The faith of Jesus takes us into divine life.

Proverbs 28:6
[6] Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.

“...that walketh in his uprightness,” Whose uprightness? Not our own.

 

[Episkopos]

Proverbs 28:6
[6] Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.

“...that walketh in his uprightness,” Whose uprightness? Not our own.

Nice.

 

[Episkopos]

Acts 6:8
[8] And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Ephesians 3:19
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

it would take a lot of explaining to get into all the hidden references in the chapter that shows that there is a hidden spiritual message underlying it. How many care to know more about this?

as long as you wrote these i would read lol, these are what drew me to the Abarim guy :)

 

[bbyrd009]

“...that walketh in his uprightness,” Whose uprightness? Not our own.

6Better a poor man who lives with integrityj

than a rich man who distorts right and wrong.

seems like his to me? i say this bc if God gets the credit for our good works then He should also get the credit for the bad ones imo. Another way to say this might be "Christ is not going to be judged for your works; your choices will be credited to you."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

6Better a poor man who lives with integrityj

than a rich man who distorts right and wrong.

seems like his to me? i say this bc if God gets the credit for our good works then He should also get the credit for the bad ones imo. Another way to say this might be "Christ is not going to be judged for your works; your choices will be credited to you."

I do realize others may see it differently, and that is okay. I’m not saying I’m right but you make a good point. But you have also made other good points when you pointed to the single eye of God: Luke 11:34 [34] The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

Romans 8:28-29
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
“...all things work together for good...” not a few but “all”. He gets the glory...even when we are wrong and He sets it right. ? Yes?...no?

 

[bbyrd009]

to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

...at least, and of course i wouldn't suggest that the guy seek glory for his integrity, but a point might be that when he is right (or wrong, either) it is he who will be credited, either way. of course the moment that goes to his head and he starts seeking that glory he is lost, so a weird dichotomy there. But my answer is "yes" bc even when we are wrong He is glorified, even if it is only others to whom He is glorified in that moment, and we maybe only figure it out later?

 

[Episkopos]

Here is a harder one that shows the depth of the word. It involves Proverbs 7. This chapter about the "strange woman", which, on the face of it, is about physical adultery and a warning against it. It concerns they who lack "understanding." More on this later.

Prov. 7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

The Hebrew shows a deeper meaning on a spiritual level. (Should we be surprised at this?) It involves false teaching. Spiritual error.

In Hebrew the words for "strange woman" or...isha zarah... אשה זרה is in the feminine form... and this is an obvious play on words that refers to, and closely resembles, another biblical idea, that of "strange fire"...esh zarah. אש זרה which is the same idea but in masculine form.

In order to get "strange woman" we only have to use the feminine form of "strange fire"...by adding a "hey" (meaning "behold") to the word for "fire". Play on words like this are very common in the OT and are one of the more common ways to convey deeper truths. God likes these. He loves to hide the truth in plain sight. :)

This refers to the dangers of false doctrine...with many warnings and allusions in the chapter to that effect.

If a man has no understanding of the word...then he can be easily "flattered" into believing a lie. He falls prey to what sounds good to the ear..but is meant to deceive and take one into spiritual adultery.

it would take a lot of explaining to get into all the hidden references in the chapter that shows that there is a hidden spiritual message underlying it. How many care to know more about this?

I wonder if anyone wants to try looking for them... :)

To add to this post on Proverbs 7.

Prov. 7:5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.

Prov. 7:21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.

False doctrine is very appealing to the carnal side of men. That is the target of the fair speech. We notice that a false teacher does not differentiate a person who is living by the power of the flesh and one who lives by the power of the Spirit. The teaching is meant to appeal to the uncrucified...those that still seek advantage for themselves. These are susceptible to flattering words. We all know that God loves us...but this truth is used to extend to the part of us that is in rebellion to God. For many it is difficult to tell the difference between what is life giving and what eventually leads to death. The thing that we see over and over again is the way a lie will seek to flatter a person as they are. As if God loves us in our sin. But God is seeking to love us AWAY from our sin.We need to cultivate a good understanding of God's ways...and what His holiness means to us.

There is more hidden messages in this chapter...for example...who is the "goodman" in the verse below?

Prov. 7:19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:

 

[APAK]

Acts 6:8
[8] And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Ephesians 3:19
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Right VictoryinJesus, although what you have quoted in these two verses have nothing to do with what I previously wrote.

I believe you are not understanding the nature of the spirit and the gifts or power given to selected individuals for specific purpose.

I doubt​

whether you have the power given to Stephen and neither do I. He was 'full' of faith and power. We cannot assume he had the same amount as was given to Christ. He was given the required amount for his task or purpose. I would wager I am correct here in meaning. When I see a phrase like 'full of faith,' I cannot jump to conclude that it means the same faith as Christ, or the most that a believer can possess. That would always get me into trouble. We have to look at the context, and in this case what Stephen was doing and why he was given power to perform miracles etc. He was not Christ at all, as any believer.. Stephen was given a special (temporary) gift and he had it IN FULLNESS, sufficient to perform the will of God.

And Ephesians 3:19 is the opposite, it is speaking of the ideal or 'fullest' state which I doubt you or I will have here on earth. Do you today know the love of Christ as he and the Father would have you possess? I would say no, although you are getting there, as I am also. And then when you reach this zenith then you can say you are truly are 'filled' with the fullness of God, AS Christ.

Look at the verse again and especially when it says "And to know the love of Christ....." The language suggests that we have not achieved it yet. As a new believer this knowledge is not given instantly when we were converted, right? We continue to gain grace upon grace...It is a goal set for us...we progress through faith. We do not have the full spirit, mind and power of Christ today. Who told you that? It's sure not spoken of in scripture. We walk to maturity..etc.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Episkopos]

Right VictoryinJesus, although what you have quoted in these two verses have nothing to do with what I previously wrote.

I believe you are not understanding the nature of the spirit and the gifts or power given to selected individuals for specific purpose.

I doubt​

whether you have the power given to Stephen and neither do I. He was 'full' of faith and power. We cannot assume he had the same amount as was given to Christ. He was given the required amount for his task or purpose. I would wager I am correct here in meaning. When I see a phrase like 'full of faith,' I cannot jump to conclude that it means the same faith as Christ, or the most that a believer can possess. That would always get me into trouble. We have to look at the context, and in this case what Stephen was doing and why he was given power to perform miracles etc. He was not Christ at all, as any believer.. Stephen was given a special (temporary) gift and he had it IN FULLNESS, sufficient to perform the will of God.

And Ephesians 3:19 is the opposite, it is speaking of the ideal or 'fullest' state which I doubt you or I will have here on earth. Do you today know the love of Christ as he and the Father would have you possess? I would say no, although you are getting there, as I am also. And then when you reach this zenith then you can say you are truly are 'filled' with the fullness of God, AS Christ.

Look at the verse again and especially when it says "And to know the love of Christ....." The language suggests that we have not achieved it yet. As a new believer this knowledge is not given instantly when we were converted, right? We continue to gain grace upon grace...It is a goal set for us...we progress through faith. We do not have the full spirit, mind and power of Christ today. Who told you that? It's sure not spoken of in scripture. We walk to maturity..etc.

Bless you,

APAK

When it says we are filled with the Spirit...it means as full as we can be...even to overflowing. The difference is in the SIZE of the vessel. Some containers are bigger than others.

And even today we can be filled with the Spirit to walk as Jesus walked. The difficulty is in allowing ourselves to be first emptied and trusting that God will not leave us empty. He empties us so that we can be filled. We give our lives not just to not have a life but so that His life takes over in us.

<><

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Right VictoryinJesus, although what you have quoted in these two verses have nothing to do with what I previously wrote.

I believe you are not understanding the nature of the spirit and the gifts or power given to selected individuals for specific purpose.

I doubt​

whether you have the power given to Stephen and neither do I. He was 'full' of faith and power. We cannot assume he had the same amount as was given to Christ. He was given the required amount for his task or purpose. I would wager I am correct here in meaning. When I see a phrase like 'full of faith,' I cannot jump to conclude that it means the same faith as Christ, or the most that a believer can possess. That would always get me into trouble. We have to look at the context, and in this case what Stephen was doing and why he was given power to perform miracles etc. He was not Christ at all, as any believer.. Stephen was given a special (temporary) gift and he had it IN FULLNESS, sufficient to perform the will of God.

And Ephesians 3:19 is the opposite, it is speaking of the ideal or 'fullest' state which I doubt you or I will have here on earth. Do you today know the love of Christ as he and the Father would have you possess? I would say no, although you are getting there, as I am also. And then when you reach this zenith then you can say you are truly are 'filled' with the fullness of God, AS Christ.

Look at the verse again and especially when it says "And to know the love of Christ....." The language suggests that we have not achieved it yet. As a new believer this knowledge is not given instantly when we were converted, right? We continue to gain grace upon grace...It is a goal set for us...we progress through faith. We do not have the full spirit, mind and power of Christ today. Who told you that? It's sure not spoken of in scripture. We walk to maturity..etc.

Bless you,

APAK

I’m not against you; I’m for the body. We are not enemies. I don’t want to see you fail or be wrong. You are probably right. It’s simply questions. Do I have the fullness and power of the Godhead as Christ manifested...no, of course not but I tend to believe as a whole (joined as a body) we do with the head as lead. What Stephen manifested was for the body as a whole; obviously not for Stephen’s own glory because Stephen was stoned.

What amazes and confuses me are “words”. The Son of God said: John 10:37-38 “If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

“...though ye believe not me, believe the works:”

Do we expect them to believe our words without the works, when they didn’t believe His without the works?

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

“That the man of God may be perfect,” what man of God...Ephesians 4:12-13
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a
perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[faithfulness]

When it says we are filled with the Spirit...it means as full as we can be...even to overflowing. The difference is in the SIZE of the vessel. Some containers are bigger than others.

And even today we can be filled with the Spirit to walk as Jesus walked. The difficulty is in allowing ourselves to be first emptied and trusting that God will not leave us empty. He empties us so that we can be filled. We give our lives not just to not have a life but so that His life takes over in us.

Amen!

But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:55-56

I'll never forget a brother saying that Jesus doesn't stand for everybody...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

i would like to list some of these verse and I hope others will contribute as well.

Ok, here is one that kind of sets up all the rest..and shows that God is encouraging us to dig deeper into His word because He has hidden many treasures therein.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Prov. 25:2

The word "matter" used here is the Hebrew דבר

Davar...which is better translated as "word". So then God hides meanings in words. He hides words (in plain sight) that have new layers or depths of meaning that convey His will and His ways.

Concerning treasures:

Proverbs 8:13
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

The beginning of wisdom is "to repent" and "turn" from evil, and to hate evil as God does. The word says this fear(turning from evil)is the beginning of wisdom. The beginning of the gospel of being born of God, and to be removed from the world(set aside). God's foolishness (the preaching of the cross) is wiser than men. (1Corinthians 1:25) and (1 Corinthians 2:14).

1 John 4:17-18
[17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. [18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Evil has torment. There is no evil in love. Love (Christ) cast out evil(fear) when we turn from evil and agree with God. Sorry, need to add: There is no torment in Love; for Christ cast out torment(evil).

wisdom: Proverbs 2:4-7
[4] If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; [5] Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord , and find the knowledge of God. [6] For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. [7] He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.

again, not in our own uprightness...but in His.