Define Church

[Guestman]

Can anyone define what a Church is? is a Church the gathering of Christian believers or a mix of believer's and non- believers? What does the bible say about the God's Church? :huh:
Thanx

The English word "church" is noted as being "from a prehistoric German word that is also the ancestor of the German Kirche; ultimately from Greek kuriakon doma "house of the lord", from kurios "lord." (Microsoft Encarta Reference Library 2005) However, this is not the word that is accurately used in the Bible, but rather in Hebrew is qa·hal´, meaning "call together, congregate" and in Greek ek·kle·si´a, meaning "to be called out."

For example, Jesus did not say to Peter: "And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (the Christ) I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Greek Hades) shall not prevail against it."(Matt 16:18, KJV) Rather, he said: "Also, I say to you, You are Peter (Greek petros, meaning " a piece of rock"), and on this rock-mass (Greek petra, meaning "rock-mass" who is the Christ, 1 Cor 10:4) I will build my congregation (Greek ekklesian, meaning "a calling out"), and the gates of Hades (mankind's common grave) will not overpower it."(New World Translation)

Hence, most of those that form the Christian congregation were once part of the "world", those alienated from our Creator, Jehovah God, but upon coming to accurately know and love him, were "called out" from this wicked "world", separated to him. From its inception when Jehovah formed the Israelites into nation during the time of Moses, he arranged for the congregation to be ruled, not democratically by the people (like the churches do, the word church coming to stand for those of Christendom), but theocratically, by God himself. To that end the nation of Israel was taken into the Law covenant.(Ex 19:3-9; 24:6-8)

As Moses was the mediator of that covenant, it could be said: “Moses laid as a command upon us a law, a possession of the congregation (Hebrew qa·hal´ ) of Jacob.” (Deut 33:4) Jehovah was their Judge, Statute-Giver, and King. (Isa 33:22) Thus, the nation was a congregation of God and could be referred to as “the congregation of Jehovah” and “Jehovah’s congregation.”(Num 16:3; 1 Chron 28:8) As established with the "congregation" under the Mosaic Law, there were stipulations or exclusions of those who could and could not be part of "Jehovah's congregation".(Deut 23:1-8)

The congregation of Israel (Jews) was in a unique position. Moses reminded them: “You are a holy people to Jehovah your God. It is you Jehovah your God has chosen to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples that are on the surface of the ground.” (Deut 7:6) But the Jewish congregation ceased to be the congregation of God, being cast off because of rejecting his Son.(Acts 4:24-28; 13:23-29; Matt 21:43; 23:37, 38; Luke 19:41-44)

The Christian congregation is founded upon Jesus Christ, not Peter, as Catholics so believe, and in which Peter identified Jesus as the figurative "stone" that was rejected by men ( the Jews, Matt 23:37; Acts 4:11), but was "chosen, precious with God" and as the "foundation cornerstone" on which a person could rest his faith without disappointment.(1 Pet 2:4-6; Ps 118:22; Isa 28:16)

This Christian congregation (Greek ek·kle·si´a), founded on Christ, also has him as its head. Thus it is stated: “He [God] also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.”(Eph 1:22, 23)

The Christian congregation of God took the place of the congregation of Israel at Pentecost of 33 C.E., when holy spirit was poured out on Jesus’ followers in Jerusalem. The first prospective members of that congregation were chosen shortly after Jesus’ baptism, at the beginning of his ministry on earth. (Acts 2:1-4; John 1:35-43)

This congregation is referred to as “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,” the full number of which, under Christ the head, is 144,000. (Heb 12:23; Rev 7:4) These called-out ones are “bought from among mankind” to carry out a special work here on earth and then to be with Christ in heaven as his bride. As there were requirements for membership in the Hebrew congregation of God, so there are requisites for membership in the Christian “congregation of God.” Those making it up are spiritual virgins who keep following the Lamb, Jesus Christ, no matter where he goes, “and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”(Rev 14:1-5)

 

[stefen]

Ok. Have read lots of definition for the english word CHURCH. But what is that word mean to the Christian who have been converted / gentile from other religion?

Gentiles call it as temple of Christian God (Jesus Christ). And what it means to us who have converted and read the bible 1st time.?

We see its a Bride of christ and our body is also a church. The Group of christians come to praise God at one place is called as united churches or as we belong to a single God, The place we get together is also call as church (temple). Christians on the entire earth will be called as single temple of God / Bride of Christ, will be taken to heaven.

Non christians are also welcome to the place we worship. The way we organize the schedule (discipline) will bring them to christ.

 

[Rex]

Say Guestman it no crime to C/P something from other websites but it's usually considerate to post the source.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001021

The JW do a lot of homework

 

[Selene]

The Church includes all Christians who believe that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[John Zain]

The Church includes all Christians who believe that Jesus Christ is God.

It is quite debatable whether one actually needs to believe Jesus is God to be born-again!
IMO, I say NO ... it has nothing to do with the simple basic gospel.

Note: Jesus did NOT teach this to the multitudes on the seashores and on the mountain sides.
And an evangelist would be crazy to preach this to the unsaved (unless directed to by the Spirit).

It has to come via spiritual revelation, which certainly is preferable, but ...

It's another one of those "somewhat hidden in Scripture" spiritual Truths.
Especially the completion of the Trinity doctrine ... that the Holy Spirit is God.
There are many sitting in churches who do not really believe in the Trinity.

 

[Selene]

It is quite debatable whether one actually needs to believe Jesus is God to be born-again!
IMO, I say NO ... it has nothing to do with the simple basic gospel.

Note: Jesus did NOT teach this to the multitudes on the seashores and on the mountain sides.
And an evangelist would be crazy to preach this to the unsaved (unless directed to by the Spirit).

It has to come via spiritual revelation, which certainly is preferable, but ...

It's another one of those "somewhat hidden in Scripture" spiritual Truths.
Especially the completion of the Trinity doctrine ... that the Holy Spirit is God.
There are many sitting in churches who do not really believe in the Trinity.

There is a difference between knowing about God and knowing God. To have a relationship with God, we need to know God. And how can one claim to be born again if they don't know God.

Philippians 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In the New Testament, the word "Lord" means "God". It is a title given to Jesus the Messiah. The Bible says that Christ is the Word made flesh.....the Word who is God. And what happens to those who do not acknowledge that Jesus is not God incarnate who came in the flesh?

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Guestman]

Say Guestman it no crime to C/P something from other websites but it's usually considerate to post the source.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001021

The JW do a lot of homework

I did use some information from the Watchtower Library, which helped me to establish what is meant by "congregation". It is like a tool that can be used to accomplish a task.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

As long as one continues to sin (There is NONE righteous, no, not one. Romans 3:10) then they obviously justify their sin. Even those who believe in their own righteousness.

That is a completely fallacious argument. Denying sin (as you do) is a completely different matter than committing sin. The latter is due to our nature in which we all stumble, but the former is due to an unregenerate heart that dwells in darkness. To deny sin is to believe one's self righteous,

 

[Guestman]

There is a difference between knowing about God and knowing God. To have a relationship with God, we need to know God. And how can one claim to be born again if they don't know God.

Philippians 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In the New Testament, the word "Lord" means "God". It is a title given to Jesus the Messiah. The Bible says that Christ is the Word made flesh.....the Word who is God. And what happens to those who do not acknowledge that Jesus is not God incarnate who came in the flesh?

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The word "lord" (Greek kurios, meaning "master, owner") does not necessarily mean "God" (Greek theos). For example, Jesus when speaking with the Pharisees, asked them: "What do you think about the Christ ? Whose son is he? ", and then proceeds to answer it, quoting from Psalms 110:1, saying: "How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ' Lord', saying, ' Jehovah said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet ? If, therefore, David calls him ' Lord,' how is he his son ? "(Matt 22:42-45)

Jesus notes as being called "Lord" by David and whereby Jehovah God is seen telling Jesus as "Lord" to "sit at my right hand", showing Jesus submission to Jehovah (like a humble son before his father), and awaiting for the appointed time for him to "go subduing in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:2)

Nowhere in the Scriptures is Jesus called "God", as being Almighty. In fact, Jesus upon seeing Mary after his resurrection, told her: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."(John 20:17) Mary understood this, telling the disciples: "I have seen the Lord". She recognized that Jesus was her "Lord" but not her "God".

 

[dragonfly]

The Christian congregation of God took the place of the congregation of Israel at Pentecost of 33 C.E., when holy spirit was poured out on Jesus’ followers in Jerusalem. The first prospective members of that congregation were chosen shortly after Jesus’ baptism, at the beginning of his ministry on earth. (Acts 2:1-4; John 1:35-43)

This congregation is referred to as “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,” the full number of which, under Christ the head, is 144,000. (Heb 12:23; Rev 7:4) These called-out ones are “bought from among mankind” to carry out a special work here on earth and then to be with Christ in heaven as his bride. As there were requirements for membership in the Hebrew congregation of God, so there are requisites for membership in the Christian “congregation of God.” Those making it up are spiritual virgins who keep following the Lamb, Jesus Christ, no matter where he goes, “and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”(Rev 14:1-5)

Hi Guestman,

You were doing pretty well until the last two paragraphs.

'The Christian congregation' is now Israel. Let me qualify that: not 'Israel of the flesh', as those who were included at the Sinai covenant with Moses.

Romans 9:6 '... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Galatians 3:26, 27, 28, 29.

Do you know that 'Israel', means 'God prevails'? Thus, 'Israel', are all those over whom God prevails. We agree to His prevailing over us.

This congregation is referred to as “the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens,”

I have good news for you, here. The way this quote from Hebrews 12 is phrased in Young's Literal Translation, and the KJV, all ordinary believers who know the Lord, are included... not just 144,000. Look at what it says:

YLT 22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers, 23 to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to a mediator of a new covenant--Jesus, and to blood of sprinkling, speaking better things than that of Abel!

KJV 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

In the Greek, it's clear that 'firstborn' is plural. We could translate it 'to the general assembly and church of the firstborn ones'. That's us, if we are in Christ, the firstborn One.

Nowhere in the Scriptures is Jesus called "God", as being Almighty.

This is not true. One of the clearest statements is in Hebrews 1. I'll quote it all so that you see the flow of references to the Son of God:


1 ELOHIYM, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of ELOHIYM worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ELOHIYM, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore ELOHIYM, even thy EL, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



And there are numerous links to Jesus Christ being 'our righteousness', which fit Jeremiah 23:5, 6. Also Christ is called Yahweh in Acts 2:21.

Don't forget, either -

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty EL, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YHVH of hosts will perform this.




Hi John,

This is an interesting statement.

It is quite debatable whether one actually needs to believe Jesus is God to be born-again!
IMO, I say NO ... it has nothing to do with the simple basic gospel.

Well, first of all I want to say that if Jesus is not God, then there is no salvation. It's a moot point whether a person has to have their theology in order to repent with a whole heart and mind towards God, believing that He is able to save them from the consequences of their past sins. That is probably what you're getting at, but there are bound to be some people who take your statement in blue as permission to believe Jesus is not God.

Note: Jesus did NOT teach this to the multitudes on the seashores and on the mountain sides.
And an evangelist would be crazy to preach this to the unsaved (unless directed to by the Spirit).

Jesus did not need to teach the multitudes that He was God. Many of those who followed Him had been watching for him, like Andrew, John and Peter. John 1:21, 25, 40, 41. John 6:14 One of the biggest discussions in Israel during His ministry was, 'Is this 'that Prophet' of whom Moses spoke?' Acts 3:18 - 26 They knew the prophecy that had been handed down by their fathers! Genesis 3:15, Exodus 4:22, Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 42:1 - 4.


Hi KC,

I noticed in our earlier exchanges, that you don't seem to believe that sin can be stopped upon a decision in the heart of the believer.

Is this what you believe and therefore, seek to convey?

 

[John Zain]

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world,
who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

We've had our little fruitless conversations before.

Everyone who knows some history agrees with "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."
A man called Jesus Christ came in the flesh, i.e. He was born into our world.

IMO, this verse is Christianese secret code-language for "God is come in the flesh".
Means nothing to most people who read it ... but then, you're not most people, right?

 

[Angelina]

Can anyone define what a Church is? is a Church the gathering of Christian believers or a mix of believer's and non- believers? What does the bible say about the God's Church? :huh:
Thanx

Just cleaned up this thread. Please keep to the O/P thanks

 

[Rex]

Myself I don't believe the "church" as we call it operated in the same manner, I don't believe it included unbelievers, I believe it was very a carefully selected group of people that made up the ekklēsia. I believe the evangelistic arm of the church was outside in everyday life. I believe it supported a two way dialog every member had the right to openly communicate rather that the uni dialog we have today. In all I think the church was largely an underground affair because of persecution from both Jews and Romans. Of course even during the 4th century when Rome founded the official state church I believe the true church continued to be a non public affair. For the most part I believe the ekklēsia continues to be primarily underground today.

These are my personal thoughts it seems your repeated question is looking for opinion, and not a dictionary definition

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Angelina,

Can anyone define what a Church is? is a Church the gathering of Christian believers or a mix of believer's and non- believers?

Are you looking for a definition which would cover all denominational churches? Originally I read all three of your questions and thought your use of 'a' instead of 'the' was over-ruled by the third question. But your middle question seems to be the heart of the issue, in that if there are only believers in the assembly, there is the opportunity for Hebrews 2:12/Psalm 22:22 and 1 Corinthians 14:26 to be given expression.

If there are unbelievers present - which clearly happened occasionally 1 Corinthians 14:23 - the culture difference between the believers and the unbelievers was supposed to be stark. Without doubt, the system of having a single 'minister' at the front - instead of each one in the whole company of 'ministers' being given freedom to 'minister' the declaration given to them by the Lord by which to edify those gathered - alters the spiritual dynamic enormously in many ways which I will not attempt to elaborate, here. Even if unbelievers come in while the believers are gathered, it should be obvious who they are, because those in the local assembly would, most likely, recognise everyone else who belonged to the Lord.

There is ample written evidence that many church leaders, historically, were unsaved, and there are still those who manage to end up in preaching positions who don't know the Lord and don't believe the Bible, either. Their flock may come to contain an increasing proportion of unbelievers who feel comfortable under his/her ministry. By the same dynamic, unrepented or active sin in the leadership of a church has an effect on the congregation, the edge of truth which should be being spoken in love one to another, being blunted by the acceptance of (effectively) unbelief.

What does the bible say about the God's Church? :huh:
Thanx

There is one Church 24/7, which is given expression through the Godly activities of those who believed into Jesus Christ for eternal salvation.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come to mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

 

[jiggyfly]

As in lord John Calvin I presume LOL

The meaning of "Ku-ri-a-kos" is understood by
its root: "Ku- ri-os," which means "lord."



Don't thank me jiggy I'm happy to share a very important English word and it's application
Some people will understand that church as we know it today is the temple or house of a man of old, the upper room where Jesus broke bread was a church, the lord of the house made it available to the Lord. You can keep your churches and every man or lord that provided another earthly temple building with a builders name attached to it, the temple is only made holy by the Lord who is the "temple" or church. When the disciples left these churches, meeting places, just as when Jesus left the upper room just as when the veil of temple was torn and the Lord left it. It's nothing but building. Those who build on Calvin or Spurgeon or any other true man of God will surly tell you, to build on their name is to build on sand. Welcome to the modern church.

"Ecclesia" is an entirely different word with an entirely
different meaning than "kuriakos." In fact, the Greek
word "kuriakos" appears in the New Testament only twice.
It is found once in I Corinthians 11:20 where it refers to "the
Lord's supper," and once again in Revelation 1:10 where it refers
to "the Lord's day." In both of those cases, it is translated
"the Lord's..." - not "church.


Explore the base camps, learning from each and consider their way, but in the end the revelation is yours alone. Jer 6:16 and please don't go start another church.

What is interesting to me is how different positions effects the
understanding of other verses, just as standing at different points
around a mountain provides each location a slightly different view of
the task at hand. I'll call these base camps churches. Many people are attempting to summit, somewhere up
there, in each of our lives is a cleft in the rocks that leads to the summit.

So please excuse my post it's really not important, as much as we all
would like to part of the expedition that summits the truth is we
summit alone, by standing on the foundation already laid, or as someone
said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the sholders of
giants." Just be-aware of who's sholders it is your standing on.

I agree with you Rex, I came to the same understanding in my personal study.