Did Gentiles Jack the Covenant --------------------------------------------------------------------------------What happened?Yahweh did not establish a covenant with the world or the gentile, for the world is fading away. He reestablished a covenant with the houses of Judah and Israel and uses them bring the gentile into the covenant (Isa 42:6-6; Eze 16:59, 60; Jer 31:31-36. He grafted the gentiles into a covenant He made with Israel (Rom 11:1-26). However, we just straight jacked the covenant from Israel and assume leadership of the Gospel, without the Scriptural support for jacking the covenant. Scripture say the following (Rom 9:3-9; Luke 22: 20). It has been the carnal man that has done this. I just got knocked off my feet. I do not understand how Luke 22: 14-16, Luke 22:7-13 and Matt 26:17-19 are not Rhema to other hungry saints. They jump of the page for me. Jesus was not talking about the communion practice as we believers say, but the Passover meal would be observed post Kingdom of God. The drinking of bread and wine had always been a part of the Passover Festival. He was not doing anything new but establishing some symbolism. This was His desire and He knew when it would be fulfilled, to eat the Passover meal with His Disciples again. It would be fulfilled not by His death or resurrection; but the coming of His kingdom. The cool part to all this is that Jesus could sing if you keep reading the text. I about shouted seeing that the Lord sung hymns.
Did Gentiles Jack the Covenant
- Thread starter manichunter
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
tim_from_pa
New Member
- Jul 11, 2007
- 1,656
- 13
- 0
- 66
(manichunter;51663)
Did Gentiles Jack the Covenant --------------------------------------------------------------------------------What happened?Yahweh did not establish a covenant with the world or the gentile, for the world is fading away. He reestablished a covenant with the houses of Judah and Israel and uses them bring the gentile into the covenant (Isa 42:6-6; Eze 16:59, 60; Jer 31:31-36. He grafted the gentiles into a covenant He made with Israel (Rom 11:1-26).
I agree 110%. The Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants were made with the people of Israel with the understanding that they would be a light to the fallen world, and when one came to God, it was understood as being thru Israel.(manichunter;51663)
However, we just straight jacked the covenant from Israel and assume leadership of the Gospel, without the Scriptural support for jacking the covenant.
This is where my "lost tribes" teaching comes in. When we understand that the church started with the seedbed of Israel, i.e. the actual physical seed of Abraham that became many mighty nations, then God was faithful in allowing Israel to be the stewards of the gospel as prophesied in Genesis 12:1-3 with Abraham, and again in passages such as Isaiah 49 that you quoted.However, whenever I bring this point up, people think I'm hijacking the thread to switch the topic to Israel instead of the church. They fail to see the connection. We've "Gentilized" the bible so much that we see it from a heathen's perspective and do not realize that the bible is a book about Israel and 7/8's of it is misunderstood.Bottom line: the gospel was not straight jacked by any Gentile. The gospel was entrusted to the dispersed tribes of Israel that just think they are Gentile---- but that was God's purpose. If they knew who they were, then they'd remember the old ways and revert to what we now call Judaism. Only the Jews, the small portion of Judah keep the Law Covenant yet, and that was also God's intent (He ordained that contrast).
Did Gentiles Jack the Covenant --------------------------------------------------------------------------------What happened?Yahweh did not establish a covenant with the world or the gentile, for the world is fading away. He reestablished a covenant with the houses of Judah and Israel and uses them bring the gentile into the covenant (Isa 42:6-6; Eze 16:59, 60; Jer 31:31-36. He grafted the gentiles into a covenant He made with Israel (Rom 11:1-26).
I agree 110%. The Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants were made with the people of Israel with the understanding that they would be a light to the fallen world, and when one came to God, it was understood as being thru Israel.(manichunter;51663)
However, we just straight jacked the covenant from Israel and assume leadership of the Gospel, without the Scriptural support for jacking the covenant.
This is where my "lost tribes" teaching comes in. When we understand that the church started with the seedbed of Israel, i.e. the actual physical seed of Abraham that became many mighty nations, then God was faithful in allowing Israel to be the stewards of the gospel as prophesied in Genesis 12:1-3 with Abraham, and again in passages such as Isaiah 49 that you quoted.However, whenever I bring this point up, people think I'm hijacking the thread to switch the topic to Israel instead of the church. They fail to see the connection. We've "Gentilized" the bible so much that we see it from a heathen's perspective and do not realize that the bible is a book about Israel and 7/8's of it is misunderstood.Bottom line: the gospel was not straight jacked by any Gentile. The gospel was entrusted to the dispersed tribes of Israel that just think they are Gentile---- but that was God's purpose. If they knew who they were, then they'd remember the old ways and revert to what we now call Judaism. Only the Jews, the small portion of Judah keep the Law Covenant yet, and that was also God's intent (He ordained that contrast).
I am not trying to jack any threads either, but I get the same response. It is hard to be given these revelations and have to tell people that things have to change or revert. I do not want to be an Israelite in the flesh, but I am finding it hard not to be one in spirit. by the way Emphraim and Manassah were grafted in gentiles by the lineage of a Egyptian mother.
The old covenant wasnt renewed....it was made altogether obsolete... ...with the ratification of this new covenant that is given to 'one NEW man' that consists of both Jew and gentile who are BOTH grafted in, the Jew being the natural branch, the gentile being the wild...He doesnt just 'use' the Jews to bring in the gentiles...the Jews are 'one NEW MAN' along WITH the gentiles under this covenant and BOTH are required to be grafted in...
By the saying "new ," He has made the first obsolete. And the one becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish. (Heb 8:13 EMTV)
For if their casting away means reconciliation for the world, what will their acceptance be, if not life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, so also the lump; and if the root is holy, so also the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Well said. By unbelief they were broken off, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps He may not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God: upon those that fell, severity; but upon you, kindness, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these, the natural ones, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:15-24 EMTV)
Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made by hands in the flesh-- that at that time you were apart from Christ, being estranged from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope and atheists in the world.But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have come to be near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and who destroyed the dividing wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, putting to death the enmity in Himself. And having come, He preached peace to you who were far away and to those near . Because through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:11-22 EMTV)
(FoC;51672)
The old covenant wasnt renewed....it was made altogether obsolete......with the ratification of this new covenant that is given to 'one NEW man' that consists of both Jew and gentile who are BOTH grafted in, the Jew being the natural branch, the gentile being the wild...He doesnt just 'use' the Jews to bring in the gentiles...the Jews are 'one NEW MAN' along WITH the gentiles under this covenant and BOTH are required to be grafted in...You left something out of your understanding. Some of the branches were not taken of off the tree. Some of the original branches remained. Who they do represent, they represent the believing Israel that did not get cut off because they believed and accepted Yeshua as Messiah. The cut of branches represent the unbelieving Israelites who did not accept the covenant. The grafted on branches represent the gentiles that believe being put on a tree that already had branches. You cannot get around the fact that some of the branches remained on the tree that was original the tree representing Israel, and still representing Israel. Yes, the unbelieving Israel will be grafted in later. The Believing Israel do not have to be grafted in because they were never cut off in the first place. Paul wrote this passage to try to prevent what actually happened. Paul was telling the Gentile not to boast and get puffed up. I challenge you to read all of the passage and see that this was the message to the Gentile to stay humble and assume control of the covenant. "to late" Versus 25 has not been obeyed. Take no offense, love chris.
The old covenant wasnt renewed....it was made altogether obsolete...
By the saying "new ," He has made the first obsolete. And the one becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish. (Heb 8:13 EMTV)
For if their casting away means reconciliation for the world, what will their acceptance be, if not life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, so also the lump; and if the root is holy, so also the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Well said. By unbelief they were broken off, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps He may not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God: upon those that fell, severity; but upon you, kindness, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these, the natural ones, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:15-24 EMTV)
Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made by hands in the flesh-- that at that time you were apart from Christ, being estranged from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope and atheists in the world.(Eph 2:11-22 EMTV)
(manichunter;51701)
You left something out of your understanding. Some of the branches were not taken of off the tree. Some of the original branches remained. Who they do represent, they represent the believing Israel that did not get cut off because they believed and accepted Yeshua as Messiah.
That would be the remnant.They were not relevant to my point in that post, which is why they were not mentioned
The cut of branches represent the unbelieving Israelites who did not accept the covenant.
absolutely
The grafted on branches represent the gentiles that believe being put on a tree that already had branches.
The passage CLEARLY states that they(the Jews) will be grafted BACK if they do not remain in unbelief.
You cannot get around the fact that some of the branches remained on the tree that was original the tree representing Israel, and still representing Israel.
The remnant were immediately included in this New covenant when it was ratified by Christ death on the cross.That doesnt make them still under the old covenant that was made obsolete when Christ died.
Yes, the unbelieving Israel will be grafted in later. The Believing Israel do not have to be grafted in because they were never cut off in the first place.
The remnant would have been included in His NEW covenant immediately upon its ratification.Are you claiming that any Jew can come to the Father since the cross thru any means other than Christ?Sorry, Im just not clear on your point here yet
Paul wrote this passage to try to prevent what actually happened. Paul was telling the Gentile not to boast and get puffed up. I challenge you to read all of the passage and see that this was the message to the Gentile to stay humble and assume control of the covenant.
Humorous.Ive READ the entire NT probably at least 350 times. I think Ive covered that WHOLE Romans Chapter a few times in all those readingsHis telling them not to get puffed up doesnt alter the details of doctrine included.
Take no offense, love chris.
No offense taken
You left something out of your understanding. Some of the branches were not taken of off the tree. Some of the original branches remained. Who they do represent, they represent the believing Israel that did not get cut off because they believed and accepted Yeshua as Messiah.
That would be the remnant.They were not relevant to my point in that post, which is why they were not mentioned
The cut of branches represent the unbelieving Israelites who did not accept the covenant.
absolutely
The grafted on branches represent the gentiles that believe being put on a tree that already had branches.
The passage CLEARLY states that they(the Jews) will be grafted BACK if they do not remain in unbelief.
You cannot get around the fact that some of the branches remained on the tree that was original the tree representing Israel, and still representing Israel.
The remnant were immediately included in this New covenant when it was ratified by Christ death on the cross.That doesnt make them still under the old covenant that was made obsolete when Christ died.
Yes, the unbelieving Israel will be grafted in later. The Believing Israel do not have to be grafted in because they were never cut off in the first place.
The remnant would have been included in His NEW covenant immediately upon its ratification.Are you claiming that any Jew can come to the Father since the cross thru any means other than Christ?Sorry, Im just not clear on your point here yet
Paul wrote this passage to try to prevent what actually happened. Paul was telling the Gentile not to boast and get puffed up. I challenge you to read all of the passage and see that this was the message to the Gentile to stay humble and assume control of the covenant.
Humorous.Ive READ the entire NT probably at least 350 times. I think Ive covered that WHOLE Romans Chapter a few times in all those readingsHis telling them not to get puffed up doesnt alter the details of doctrine included.
Take no offense, love chris.
No offense taken
How can you just abritrarily and without inspiration say that the branches left on as the remnant are irrevelant. You are talking about Paul, Peter, John, and James who are the remnant who wrote the New Testament. They are not irrelevant. Of course out agreement and not to cause unnecessary offense, I know you are not calling them irrelevant. So do not think that I am trying to make you look bad and puff myself up. I hope we can share with one another the goodness and revelations of the Lord. Teach me what you know and do not be offended when I share what God has taught me. Anyway back to the subject- The branches that get grafted on from the wild tree are the gentiles and the regrafted are the unbeliever Israel. So there three types of branches- remaining branches, grafted on branches, and regrafted branches.(Inspiration and Illumination) We do not disagree on 95 percent of the passage. Just the relevance, importance, and symbolism of the "remaining branches" in comparison to the grafted on branches. Take no offense, chris
Got a little more to add, Ephraim does represent the House of the Gentiles. His mother was an Egyptian. However, if you go to Revelations you see God using the name Joseph again. God gave the gentiles an inheritance through Ephraim and Manassah by Jacob/Israel grafting them into the household of Israel as his own sons. Joseph was considered dead to the Israel. But Joseph's offspring through his death were mande alive to the covenant. They recieved their father share of the covenant. Can you see the foreshadowing taking place. Wham, then the second covenant, the same takes place. The gentile is grafted into the house of Israel. Uh oh, the gentiles did the same thing Ephraim did. Ephraim split the united kingdom; and then took the name of Israel as there own, and started worshipping as they saw fit. There is nothing new under the sun.Then in the book of revelation you have the combined Israel united as it should be. Joseph's name is restored as head of the Tribe. Now everyone that has made it to everlasting life is "Spiritual Israel" forever with Yeshua as their King of Judah. The Gentiles have made the Body of Christ into the image of the various Gentile cultures and ethnicities. Examples would be Christmas and Easter which are not Scriptural but come from various pagan cultures and not even celebrated on the same date or same manner. The "Communion" would be another example of it being modified as it was taken out of the Passover meal setting. The eating of bread and wine on Passover was apart of the Passover originally. Yeshua said salvation is of the Jews, which coincides with Acts 13:47 tied to John 4:22.Please take no offense, chris
tim_from_pa
New Member
- Jul 11, 2007
- 1,656
- 13
- 0
- 66
(manichunter;51669)
I am not trying to jack any threads either, but I get the same response. It is hard to be given these revelations and have to tell people that things have to change or revert. I am do not want to be an Israelite in the flesh, but I am finding it hard not to be one in spirit. by the way Emphraim and Manassah were grafted in gentiles by the lineage of a Egyptian mother.
Yeah, I know what you mean.As for Ephraim and Manasseh, yes, they were the adopted children of Jacob (Romans 9:4) and foreshadowed Gentiles. They are called the "Gentile children of Israel" and being double portion inheritors foreshadowed a type of race and grace. They represent Gentiles but are still in fact physical seed of Israel as well.This was the promised line, and not the other tribes, by whom the gospel of grace would be from. The other tribes have an inheritance, and were part of the olive tree (Romans 11), but were not the birthright elect of race.Like it or lump it, you probably are physically Israelite, but the better promises are in Christ, the ones that we as Israelites are supposed to present to the world. Promises of race and the earthly blessings that go with it are nice, but that is just the foundation of the intended purpose of everything meant for grace.
I am not trying to jack any threads either, but I get the same response. It is hard to be given these revelations and have to tell people that things have to change or revert. I am do not want to be an Israelite in the flesh, but I am finding it hard not to be one in spirit. by the way Emphraim and Manassah were grafted in gentiles by the lineage of a Egyptian mother.
Yeah, I know what you mean.As for Ephraim and Manasseh, yes, they were the adopted children of Jacob (Romans 9:4) and foreshadowed Gentiles. They are called the "Gentile children of Israel" and being double portion inheritors foreshadowed a type of race and grace. They represent Gentiles but are still in fact physical seed of Israel as well.This was the promised line, and not the other tribes, by whom the gospel of grace would be from. The other tribes have an inheritance, and were part of the olive tree (Romans 11), but were not the birthright elect of race.Like it or lump it, you probably are physically Israelite, but the better promises are in Christ, the ones that we as Israelites are supposed to present to the world. Promises of race and the earthly blessings that go with it are nice, but that is just the foundation of the intended purpose of everything meant for grace.
Yes, I believe God extended the covenant to Gentiles. It's just what I believe.I also believe that the Christians are the new "Israel". The body of Christ that is. But I also believe that Jews play a big role in prophecy, etc.
Similar threads
