Dispensationalism

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Divinsoteriology

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Dispensationalism seems to be a very popular perspective on the bible as a whole. One of its major distinctive is the separation between Israel and the church. One thing I do not understand is, why continue to make a distinction when Paul clearly taught us that the promises were not made to Israel, that they were made to Christ.

“Brothers and sisters, I offer an example from everyday life: When a covenant has been ratified, even though it is only a human contract, no one can set it aside or add anything to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, “and to the descendants,” referring to many, but “and to your descendant,” referring to one, who is Christ.” (Galatians 3:15–16, NET)

If we trust in Christ, then we are heirs to the promise via Christ. All blessings come through Christ alone.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:28–29, NET)

There is only one way of salvation, one way of blessing. It does not come via your ethnic line, but through faith in Christ.
 

rockytopva

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My interpretation of Dispensationalism...

This is the timetable that I would put together...

4300 - 2644 BC - Adam to the great flood: About 1,650 years
2644 - 1730 BC - The Patriarchs - From Noah to Joseph: About 1,000 years
1730 -1450 BC - From Joseph to Moses: So Joesphs bones were in Egypt about 300 years
1450 - 33 AD - The time of the Laws of Moses was about 1500 years.
33 - 66 AD Ephesus – Apostolic – 33 years, not long! “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me…” – II Timothy 1:15
66 - 312 AD - Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions. Ended with Constantine
312 - 800 AD - Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
800-1450 AD Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. Began with Charlemange
1450-1700 AD Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
1700-1940 AD Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love. Anabaptists -Weslayan -Moravian
1940 - 2060 AD Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

The time of the horseman runs with the last couple of church ages...

1. White - Democracy - Came about along with the Philadelphian church
2. Red - Communism - Note the red flag, hammer and sickle.
3. Black - Islam - Note the desire to disrupt the global economy.
4. Pale - Anti-Christ - A brief 3.5 year reign.

Isaac Newton picked the 2060 AD end date and I will go along with him with the following disclaimer...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.” – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

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Divinsoteriology

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Rockytopva,

I appreciate your response, however, your response deals more with a timeline for eschatology, rather than dealing with the proper subject of my post which is a discussion about dispensationalism.
 

Rex

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Nice to meet you

Just hang on, the blind will soon find there way to your topic.

Welcome to the forum you're lucky Rockytopva didn't post his E/c2 theory of the universe.
Just the same nice to meet you.

I completely agree
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Welcome.

As you say, the promises were never to the natural seed, but to the spiritual seed which is the lineage of the firstborn from Abraham to Christ.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Divinesoteriology said:
Dispensationalism seems to be a very popular perspective on the bible as a whole. One of its major distinctive is the separation between Israel and the church. One thing I do not understand is, why continue to make a distinction when Paul clearly taught us that the promises were not made to Israel, that they were made to Christ.

“Brothers and sisters, I offer an example from everyday life: When a covenant has been ratified, even though it is only a human contract, no one can set it aside or add anything to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, “and to the descendants,” referring to many, but “and to your descendant,” referring to one, who is Christ.” (Galatians 3:15–16, NET)

If we trust in Christ, then we are heirs to the promise via Christ. All blessings come through Christ alone.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:28–29, NET)

There is only one way of salvation, one way of blessing. It does not come via your ethnic line, but through faith in Christ.
D.S. .... I have written the following in my own words to clarify my position on the topic. Thanks.

According to some people here I fall under the label of dispensationalist
But it is not simply to distinguish between Israel and the church (which I do at times)
If I am a dispensationalist .... it is because I feel God Himself is a dispensationalist

But the definition of dispensationalism varies from person to person ... and that creates it's own set of problems and disagreements.

God dealt with people in the time of Noah in a unique way (dispensation) ..... and God dealt with people in a unique way during the times of Moses (another dispensation) .... God dealt with people in a unique and different way when Christ came (another dispensation).... and he also has more unique (dispensations) to come such as .... the completion of the church age .... then the great tribulation .... then the 1000 year reign .... and then everything made new for eternity .... etc etc etc .... we call them "dispensations" for lack of a better ""word"".

I find it puzzling why the furious-anti-dispensationalists never provide an alternative ""word"" to use .... so in the meantime we continue to use the ""word"" dispensation .

----------------

Now when it comes to the distinction between Israel and the church I systematically explain it below ....

Originally God categorized people into 2 groups ....
1. Israel (the chosen people) ....
2. Pagan Gentiles (Idol worshipers without God)

Christ came .... and there were now 3 groups ....
1. believing Israel ....
2. unbelieving Israel ...
3. pagan gentiles

Shortly afterwards God made salvation available to the Gentiles and there were now 4 groups .....
1. believing Israel .....
2. unbelieving Israel .....
3. believing gentiles ....
4. unbelieving gentiles.

Those 4 groups continue today and we know them as....
1. believing Israel ..... (Messianic Jews)
2. unbelieving Israel ..... (The worldwide Jewish population and most of the citizens of Israel )
3. believing gentiles .... (The worldwide Christian church)
4. unbelieving gentiles .... (Various pagan religions , the non-religious , atheists etc)

(note: ... no doubt many of the Jewish believers eventually assimilated into the western christian church and blended into "one" under Christ) .... (another interesting quirk is that circumcision was practiced by many in the Christian church right up to today .... which would have been a carryover from the Jews .... because originally circumcision was a purely a Jewish ritual)

Now I make a decisive point regarding the future ....

In the future God will still deal with people in those 4 distinct groups

1. God has unique future plans for the believing Christian Church
2. God has unique future plans for the unbelieving pagan gentile
3. God has unique future plans for the Messianic Jew
4. God has unique future plans for unbelieving Israel

Most of us could mostly agree on most of the above points ... until it comes to the unique future plans God has for unbelieving Israel .... that is when the sparks start to fly among us ..... because some of those future plans turn out to be favorable for unbelieving Israel and we can not reconcile it in our minds because they have reject Christ and salvation as we know it .

I feel it is fair and proper for (you) to feel that way about christ-rejecting-unbeleiving Israel ..... because that is exactly what they are !!!!!

So why the endless debates and disagreements between (you) and (me) on this whole topic. ???

Because something fundamental has been overlooked regarding unbelieving Israel ..... they do not have Christ and the forgiveness that we receive ..... so they have been punished .... scattered ..... holocausted .... as prophesied ...... let me repeat .... they have been punished for their sins (no forgiveness as we Christians know it)

And now we see the regathering of scattered Israel back to the land starting in 1948 (as prophesied) .... still in unbelief as far as the gospel (as prophesied) .... and a lot of Christians dislike it when these favorable things are evident for unbelieving Israel

But there is more to it from God's point of view ...... the rest of the world (nations) .... also still hate Israel just as they have for all of history ..... and God will still use Israel ..... and defend Israel .... and be favorable to Israel in order to show the rest of the world he has a covenant with Israel that he will keep ..... and prove to the world that the Jewish God is the only true God there ever was and ever will be !!!!!!!!!!!

So to summarize ..... the future "favorable" prophecies for Israel are all about a showdown between unbelieving Israel and the unbelieving Nations of the world ..... and really nothing to do with the Christian Church.

I hope that makes sense

And God clearly says that he does it for His own reasons .... and His Holy Name .... and completes His end of the bargain .... even though Israel does not deserve it !!!!!!!!

Somehow All Israel ends up being saved in the end .... and of course it must ultimately be done through Christ .... it is just that we are not given all the details at this time.

Whew !!!!!!!! ... sorry about the long post.

best wishes
Arnie M.
=========================

edit ..... I want to add another wild card .... it is possible that all of a sudden there could be "revival" that sweeps through Israel and they wholeheartedly embrace Christ as messiah .... and then those (prophesied) battles could begin between Israel and the surrounding enemy nations that still "hate Israel" and want to destroy her

That would something I think we could all agree would be a workable scenario

However it would then be a battle against all of Christianity (instead of just Nation Israel ) .... and the bible tends to keeps the focus on Israel ..... apparently still in unbelief

Certainly the regathering (1948) of the Jews to Palestine was done while they were (are) unbelievers ..... pre 1948 scholars also recognized the re-gathering to Palestine would be as Jews .... not as Christians

Not only that .... but there are many attributes of end-times Israel that are purely Jewish in nature

Thank you
Arnie
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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covenant-vs-dispensational.gif
The following are the major differences between these two systems of theology. They represent the mainstreams of both systems, though there are variations in each.​
DISPENSATIONAL THEOLOGY
(Lewis S. Chafer, John Walvoord, Tim LaHaye, John Nelson Darby, C.I. Scofield)​
COVENANT THEOLOGY​
(Charles Hodge, Loraine Boettner, Louis Berkhof, John Murray, B.B. Warfield)​


1. May be Arminian or modified Calvinist. Almost never 5-point Calvinist.
1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point.
2.Stresses rigidly ‘literal’ interpretation of the Bible.
2.Accepts ‘normal’ interpretation of the Bible text (allows both literal and figurative)
3. Usually does not accept the idea of the ‘Analogy of Faith.’
3. Almost always accepts the idea of The “Analogy of Faith.”
4. ‘Israel’ always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob.
4. “Israel” may mean either literal, physical descendants of Jacob or the figurative, spiritual Israel, depending on context.
5. ‘Israel of God’ in Gal 6:16 means physical Israel alone.
5. “Israel of God” in Gal. 6:16 means spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28-29; Phil. 3:3.
6. God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly).
6. God has always had only 1 people, the Church gradually developed.
7. The Church was born at Pentecost.
7. The Church began in O.T. Acts 7:38 and reached fulfillment in the N.T.
8. The Church was not prophesied as such in the O.T. but was a hidden mystery until the N.T.
8. There are many O.T. prophecies of the N.T. Church.
9. All O.T. prophecies for ‘Israel’ are for literal Israel, not the Church.
9. Some O.T. prophecies are for the literal nation of Israel, others are for spiritual Israel.
10. God’s main purpose in history is literal Israel.
10. God’s main purpose in history is Christ and secondarily the Church.
11. The Church is a parenthesis in God’s program for the ages.
11. The Church is the culmination of God’s saving purpose for the ages.
12. The main heir to Abraham’s covenant was Isaac and literal Israel.
12. The main heir to Abraham’s covenant was Christ and spiritual Israel.
13. There was no eternal Covenant of Redemption within the Trinity.
13. The eternal Covenant of Redemption was within the Trinity to effect election.
14. There was no Covenant of Works with Adam in the Garden of Eden.
14. God made a conditional Covenant of Works* with Adam as representative for all his posterity.
15. There was no Covenant of Grace concerning Adam.
15. God made a Covenant of Grace with Christ and His people, including Adam.
16. Israel was rash to accept the Covenant at Mt. Sinai.
16. Israel was right to accept the Covenant Mt. Sinai.
17. The ‘New Covenant’ of Jer. 31:31- 34 is only for literal Israel and is not the New Covenant of Lk.22:20.
17. The “New Covenant” of Jer. 31 is the same as in Lk. 22; both are for spiritual Israel according to Heb. 8.
18. God’s program in history is mainly through separate dispensations.
18. God’s program in history is mainly through related covenants.
19. Some Dispensationalists have said that O.T. sinners were saved by works.
19. No man has ever been saved by works, but only by grace.
20. Most Dispensationalists teach that men in the O.T. were saved by faith in a revelation peculiar to their dispensation, but this did not include faith in the Messiah as their sin-bearer.
20. All men who have ever been saved have been saved by faith in Christ as their sin-bearer, which has been progressively revealed in every age.
21. The O.T. sacrifices were not recognized as the Gospel or types of the Messiah as sin-bearer, but only seen as such in retrospect.
21. O.T. believers believed in the Gospel of Messiah as sin-bearer mainly by the sacrifices as types and prophecies.
22. The Holy Spirit indwells only believers in the dispensation of Grace, not O.T. and not after the Rapture.
22. The Holy Spirit has indwelt believers in all ages, especially in the present N.T. era, and will not be withdrawn.
23. Jesus.made an offer of the literal Kingdom to Israel; since Israel rejected it, it is postponed.
23. Jesus made only an offer of the spiritual Kingdom, which was rejected by literal Israel but has gradually been accepted by spiritual Israel.
24. O.T. believers were not in Christ, not part of the Body or Bride of Christ.
24. Believers in all ages are all “in Christ” and part of the Body and Bride of Christ.
25. The Law has been abolished.
25. The Law has 3 uses: to restrain sin in society, to lead to Christ, and to instruct Christians in godliness. The ceremonial Laws have been abolished; the civil laws have been abolished except for their general equity; the moral laws continue.
26. O.T. laws are no longer in effect unless repeated in the N.T.
26. O.T. laws are still in effect unless abrogated in the N.T.
27. The Millennium is the Kingdom of God. Dispensationalists are always Pre-Millennial and usually Pre-Tribulational.
27. The Church is the Kingdom of God. Covenanters are usually AMillennial, sometimes Pre-Millennial or Post-Millennial, rarely Pre-Tribulational.
28. The O.T. animal sacrifices will be restored in the Millennium.
28. The O.T. sacrifices were fulfilled and forever abolished in Christ.
29. The Millennium will fulfill the Covenant to Abraham. Israel has a future.
29. Christ fulfilled the Covenant to Abraham. Some Covenanters believe in a future for literal Israel, most don’t.
30. David will sit on the Millennial throne in Jerusalem.
30. Christ alone sits on the throne. Saints rule under Him.
 

Rex

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Arnie Manitoba said:
D.S. .... I have written the following in my own words to clarify my position on the topic. Thanks.
In your own words Arnie, is that similar to "man made doctrines of men" you referred to today in another thread?

Here is another attribute I dislike about dispensation, it fans the flames of segregation.
Arnie makes this common argument that unless the scriptures are addressing you personally they are not for you, this is today's post by Arnie in another thread I'm going to post it here, and for those that don't know; all you have to do is click in the upper right hand corner of these quotes to be taken to the location of the post.

Arnie Manitoba said:
My bible says Jesus was instructing his disciples while washing their feet.

Of course some people try to apply those instructions to themselves to form man made doctrines
My reply
Rex said:
Your funny Arnie
This is a common dispensation argument that infers that scripture is only relevant to those that are personally addressed. Where does that rule of thinking lead?
Well it infers that no one has a right to anything said or promised in the bible, why because you were not personally addressed.

You and many others, seem to believe that the original promise to Abraham is only addressed to the blood line children of Abraham, well that's not true, we see this fact in Isaac's two boys don't we. One He loved, the other he hated. So much for the blood line being the recipients of the promise, theory of blood line promise, up in smoke.

Secondly the original promise was to everyone, as we see here in Gal 3:8-9

Thirdly everything that was spoken and promised to the Apostles were also promised to everyone, that by faith believed, just as the original promise to Abraham was to all men through faith so is the NT promises to the disciples. Please read John chapter 17 and note that first Jesus prays for himself then for the disciples then he prays for everyone "that believes in Him through their message" John 17:20-21 That all of them may be one, verse 17:21 This is the foundation laid by Christ. It includes all peoples and nations.

You're starting to sound like veteran "man made doctrines"

I get a kick out of people that insist that promises concerning salvation are said to not be applicable to certain people because God or Jesus wasn't speaking to you or your particular secular group. What next? white power, black panthers, Zionist? I love the way dispensation fans the flames of segregation LOL
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Rex .... you have a history of never having anything to offer other than the same old dislike for everyone who does not follow your man made doctrines.

It would be much better if you could stand on your own feet and tell us in your own words why you feel God does not use dispensation to categorize his various dealings with mankind.

Rex said:
Here is another attribute I dislike about dispensation, it fans the flames of segregation.
You bring up an overlooked issue seldom discussed .... God himself acts as a segregationist .... He is also a racist and a tribalist ... he treats different groups un-equally all thu the OT
 

Rex

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Arnie Manitoba said:
It would be much better if you could stand on your own feet and tell us in your own words why you feel God does not use dispensation to categorize his various dealings with mankind.
I just did Arnie


Arnie Manitoba said:
You bring up an overlooked issue seldom discussed .... God himself acts as a segregationist .... He is also a racist and a tribalist ... he treats different groups un-equally all thu the OT
God is not a segregationist, If He were then why does he refer to sheep and goats, why not simply say Jews and non Jews?
Pretty simple because his separation rule is not based on ethics, it's based on those for or against him.

You believe this because you simply refuse to accepts Paul's interpretation of the promise to Abraham.

Arnie Manitoba said:
He is also a racist and a tribalist
Good luck with that Arnie
haveadream.jpg
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Arnie Manitoba said:
You bring up an overlooked issue seldom discussed .... God himself acts as a segregationist .... He is also a racist and a tribalist ... he treats different groups un-equally all thu the OT
That was the OT; done for a specific plan that has served its purpose and gone away. We are now in a new covenant (dispensation) in which GOD shows favoritism to no one. Time to catch up with the program...
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Arnie Manitoba said:
You bring up an overlooked issue seldom discussed .... God himself acts as a segregationist .... He is also a racist and a tribalist ... he treats different groups un-equally all thu the OT
Sounds like a Richard Dawkins rant.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Arnie Manitoba said:
You bring up an overlooked issue seldom discussed .... God himself acts as a segregationist .... He is also a racist and a tribalist ... he treats different groups un-equally all thu the OT
Some examples






Son of man, set your face against Sidon; prophesy against her and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘I am against you, Sidon,
and among you I will display my glory.
You will know that I am the Lord,
when I inflict punishment on you
and within you am proved to be holy.
I will send a plague upon you
and make blood flow in your streets.
The slain will fall within you,
with the sword against you on every side.
Then you will know that I am the Lord.

“‘No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns

I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers;

I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations

The nations will hear and tremble;
anguish will grip the people of Philistia.
15 The chiefs of Edom will be terrified,
the leaders of Moab will be seized with trembling,
the people of Canaan will melt away;
16 terror and dread will fall on them.
 

Rex

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Don't take it to hard Arnie and go off the deep end.

The RCC still thinks it's the only true source of salvation in the world, the Muslims believe the same about themselves the Orthodox Jews believe they are special and most of the United States religious fools believe this to. The common denominator is this, someone thinks themselves better than another in the eyes of God.

I wish these dumber than dirt people would just get the cage fight under way.
Do you now see the value in the big picture about what you just said about God and the dispensationlist teaching, it teaches someones better than someone else.
Arnie Manitoba said:
You bring up an overlooked issue seldom discussed .... God himself acts as a segregationist .... He is also a racist and a tribalist ... he treats different groups un-equally all thu the OT
 

rockytopva

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Rex... The Lord Jesus, when time came to picking his disciples, did not court the Scribes, Pharisees, or the Sadducees. He stood on the bank and called for the rough and rugged (in your own words 'dumber then dirt people') fishermen to be his disciples.
 

Rex

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And here's another piece of the poison in the pie.
The US fools believe there getting beamed up to the star ship enterprise, so they have no bones about fanning the flames of a war. Because the mother ship is going to sneek in using a klingon cloking device and take them all away.
 

Rex

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rockytopva said:
Rex... The Lord Jesus, when time came to picking his disciples, did not court the Scribes, Pharisees, or the Sadducees. He stood on the bank and called for the rough and rugged (in your own words 'dumber then dirt people') fishermen to be his disciples.
Why don't you and Joel Osteen just go away on a princes cruse where you can talk about the floffy puffy feel good about being rich news
In fact rocky why don't you provide a link to your cruse pics you posted a couple of months ago "your last cruse"
and then link them to the post a couple of days ago or yesterday talking about how your getting ready to take another one.

THEN come back here and tell me all about how you fill your description of rough and rugged
While you're doing that you can show everyone your collection of Joel Osteen videos



rockytopva said:
Rex... The Lord Jesus, when time came to picking his disciples, did not court the Scribes, Pharisees, or the Sadducees. He stood on the bank and called for the rough and rugged (in your own words 'dumber then dirt people') fishermen to be his disciples.
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Divinesoteriology said:
Hi again D.S. My comments in red below .... thanks ....

Dispensationalism seems to be a very popular perspective on the bible as a whole. One of its major distinctive is the separation between Israel and the church. One thing I do not understand is, why continue to make a distinction when Paul clearly taught us that the promises were not made to Israel, that they were made to Christ. I agree absolutely

“Brothers and sisters, I offer an example from everyday life: When a covenant has been ratified, even though it is only a human contract, no one can set it aside or add anything to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, “and to the descendants,” referring to many, but “and to your descendant,” referring to one, who is Christ.” (Galatians 3:15–16, NET) I agree absolutely


If we trust in Christ, then we are heirs to the promise via Christ. All blessings come through Christ alone. I agree absolutely


“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:28–29, NET) I agree absolutely


There is only one way of salvation, one way of blessing. It does not come via your ethnic line, but through faith in Christ. I agree absolutely

No problem with anything you said D.S. ..... but the discussion in Galatians is about Faith in Christ vs Old covenant law .... the dispensationalist and non-dispensationalist are in complete harmony on that topic

The non-dispensationalist makes an error by not realizing the dispenationalist is looking at a completely different topic .... and it will occur sometime in the future .... and it is in regard to a time when the full number of gentiles have been saved .... the times of the gentiles have ended ..... and then the central focus is back on Israel .... remaining prophecies regarding Israel start to be fulfilled .... and some of them are favorable to Israel and quite devastating to the rest of the world..

It culminates when Jesus returns (to Israel) and begins his 1000 year reign (from Israel).

This is crystal clear in the bible. It is not complicated whatsoever.

But there are some folks who feel Jesus should return to Vatican Rome to establish his Kingdom .... or to New York ... or to the prepared Mormon temple in Utah ..... or a Baptist church in Mississippi .... anywhere but Israel