Distinguishing 2 gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[Deadwheat1224]

I'm writing a lesson plan about the gifts of the Holy Spirit,I am always a bit cloudy on the difference between knowledge and understanding. (I'm pretty sure these are in Galatians, but if not help me out.)Can anyone speculate on how these are different?

 

[Brother Mike]

There are 9 Gifts. 3 revelation Gifts3 Working (Change something physical/Power gift) Gifts3 Edification GiftsAll 9 gifts is as the Spirit Wills and used in a ministry setting most of the time. Not sitting around home watching TV, but within a group of people. That is the Setting that is being described.HOWEVER, the gifts can come at anytime to profit man.Only 1 Gift is new: Speaking in Tongues, all others can be found in the Old Testament.

Revelation Gifts​

People will be surprised, but anyone that knows Jesus has operated in these gifts. More than they think.Knowledge: Holy Ghost telling us information of something that has happened or Is taking place in Current time. It comes as just supernaturally knowing something, the Holy Ghost told you. The gift can even help you find your car Keys. Jesus operated in this Gift several times, as He Told the Women that she had 5 husbands. Jesus just knew this by the Holy Ghost. Wisdom: Something that is going to Happen or something that is coming up. future.Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Paul before shipwrecked (Perceived that the voyage would be with much hurt.) Most of the time, this is also just a knowing of something, and it's easy to miss if we are not use to Hearing God. Both Gifts can come as dreams or Visions, but normally it is just knowing something, you would not normally know. Discerning of spirits: This is seeing into the realm of the Spirit. It's not used as much.2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. I have known people to see angels standing guard, others have seen devils behind someone preaching falsely or that was in bondage. Some say this gift must be in operation with visions, or dreams as that is seeing into the realm of the Spirit. It is always supernatural and not just "Feeling" someone is bad or someone is preaching falsely. That is just comparing what they say, against the truth in the Word.Well, I won't cover the other 6 gifts because it's your study, May the Holy Ghost lead you into a wonderful time of learning about these gifts.Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Deadwheat1224]

Thank you, that actually helps me a lot. My students will also be very greatfull.

 

[Elaine]

Brother Mike, This is such a helpful post, thank you so much for explaining so well. I am new here - I was instructed to post - so here I am thanking you to get a post under my belt. I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit and Speak/Pray in Tongues since July 8, 2009. :)I'm very new at all this. Thank you again,:)Elaine

 

[Brother Mike]

Awesome Sister!!! Been praying in tongues awhile myself.I will say this, Keep praying in tongues. You will get better at it, as you learn to get into the spirit more. Sometimes your tongues will change into a different language, A lot of times when this happens for me the Holy Ghost lets me know what I was praying about. It's pretty "Cool" One time at a bible study (bout 10 people) we were gathered around in a circle holding hands. I was leading prayer and I just started to sing in tongues. Next everyone was singing in tongues and it was the same song and words. A very awesome experience. I might do a complete post on the Gifts of the Spirit. I did not want to hamper anything Deadwheat1224 might have posted.Be blessed and Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Elaine]

Brother Mike, YES! Please start another thread bec I love to talk more and listen more about the Holy Spirit...I don't want to hijack this thread either -but let me just say, What? you all sang the same words in tongues?? ---I want to hear more. :) Elaine

 

[Deadwheat1224]

I totally don't mind if you "Hijack" this post if that's what would be easiest. Either way, I would enjoy learning more about this stuff.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you. I will start working on this latter today.Both of you be blessed in all you do.Jesus Is Lord

 

[epistemaniac]

in Romans the bible talks about God's wisdom and knowledge. (Ro.11:33) but I am unable to find a list of the gifts where knowledge and wisdom are distinguished from one another...typically knowledge has to do with bare intellectual content, whereas wisdom is the right and proper (godly) application of that knowledge towards glorifying and obeying God....as far as speaking in tongues goes, we are to emulate first and foremost the Lord Jesus Christ, since he never spoke in tongues, I do not see any reason why I should... I see the gift of speaking in tongues as a sovereignly given gift by God Himself as He deems fit, and that this gift is the supernatural ability to speak a language that they did not themselves naturally know, and that specifically this gift was given to testimony to the reality of the Messiah... as Peter evidenced on the Day of Pentecost...much of speaking in tongues today is unbiblical in that it first does not follow the guidelines set by Paul in 1 Cor. chapters 12-14, and second that Paul himself thought it was better to speak 5 words in an intelligible language than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue (1 Cor. 4:19), and that third, tongues was specifically a sign for unbelievers, not believers... (1 Cor. 14:22) and lastly we should desire to prophesy rather than speak in tongues as Paul says this is a greater gift than speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:1), and that love is greater still (1 Cor. 13)... it would be nice to see people desire to do these things (love, prophesy, which is not to foretell the future but rather to forth-tell the truth of the Scripture) rather than become infatuated with the modern notion (versus the biblical practice of speaking in actual languages) of speaking in tongues which is largely, unfortunately, mere gibberish under the guise of speaking in tongues. Some interesting studies have been down to show that a person claiming to have the gift of speaking in tongues really, according to linguistics, was not speaking in enough types of sounds to constitute an actual language, and secondly several different persons claiming to have the gift of interpretation interpreted a recording of this "message" given in tongues, interestingly the interpreter's interpretations contradicted one another and did not match at all... since God is not the author of confusion and contradiction is it unlikely that the message which claimed to be a manifestation of the gift of speaking in tongues was unfortunately a man-made ecstatic utterance, and not a message from God at all. Besides, since we have the Scriptures, we do not need new messages from God. It’s like this… if someone gives a “message” that was spoken in tongues, and their message is interpreted and it contradicts the word of God, it must be rejected…. But if the message was consistent with the Scriptures, then we have to wonder why it was ever necessary to convey a message in an unknown tongue that was already given in the Scriptures…blessings,ken

 

[Brother Mike]

Dear Brother epistemanaicThank you for you considerations in responding with your findings on the Gifts of the Spirit. I read your post over several times. If I am wrong, then please correct me as I don't want to make a wrong assumption about what you believe. It appears that you don't subscribe to the gifts of the Spirit, and you really seem to have had an issue with the tongues, but it also seems that your not discounting the experience altogether. God can do as He chooses and it is as the Spirit Wills. I find this to be a very common view, and have not really run into any true Christian that claims tongues never happened. Well, Brother Peter Ruckman, but He's the "other" Baptist, and had many wonderful books on the authority of God's Word using the KJV. It really helped my faith. I know how you feel brother, I was there at one time myself being raised Presbyterian and Baptist, with a little Methodist thrown in. Latter on in life I got myself in trouble with the law and was put in prison. I was scared, and it was a whole new world to me. I was placed in a non-smoking wing and I was really seeking God again. (Not that I ever really served him, or given my life to Jesus) I decided to serve God for the rest of my life at this point. The prison Wing I was put in was full of those dreaded Word of Faith people. They are not Pentecostal, but of the Copeland, Creflo, Hagin type camp. They were also all Black, so some southern Baptist was thrown in, and only the KJV was used. (I had a NIV) I had to make a choice. fellowship with them and put up with all the tongue talking, or keep to myself. I choose to fellowship as they were nice people.I did witness Healing of some serious cancer, and heard praise reports of things we would pray about in our prayer circle. It seemed these things were coming to pass before my eyes, but I thought it was just coincidence for the most part. (My heart was not right, and I did not even realize it.) A few months went by, and I never got a letter from home. It hurt me to see other inmates get letters, but my family never wrote me back. It's as they forgot me. I begged God every night to get something from home. One night I decided I was going to write another letter. This time I was going to accuse my family of not loving God and disobeying the Word for not forgiving me. I was also going to tell them to never bother writing me, and I did not need them anyway. I sat down and started to write, I only had a couple hours before they locked us up, so I was trying to hurry and get it in the mail. Almost done with my letter I got a knock on my cell door (We had our own key) I opened the door and it was a elder bother that never would talk to me much. He looked at me very stern and said " I have a Word of Wisdom from God to give you. You are not to send a letter that you intended, as it would cause hurt, but wait, and in two days time, that which you have been hoping will come in the mail, explaining things more clearly to you. You are also to stop being a child and take responsibility for what you have put your family though. Even though it may seem much time has passed, believe on me, and I'll restore, the precious things you have given up." I was completely confounded. The Brother said nothing else but turned around and walked away. There was power in his voice, something I could not explain. It was enough to make me throw my letter I started that night, away. Two days latter I got that letter from home, It was filled with lots of hurt on how I upset my family, and they were in the process of trying to forgive me. I knew then, that I wanted the maturity and things those other brothers had with God. I also started to entertain the idea that I should be speaking in those tongues. If we believe on his name, we shall speak in new tongues. (Mark 16) I don't know why it took months to open my eyes to the Power of the Holy Ghost. I had lots of other teaching in me. I am just Glad I did. If I may address some things you posted.

much of speaking in tongues today is unbiblical in that it first does not follow the guidelines set by Paul in 1 Cor

Now how would you know? Does your church do this often, or is this just an assumption based on what you have heard and not experienced for any length of time. I have been in service where someone has stood up and just stated to speak tongues. Interupting the whole thing. Unbiblical? yep, but your always going to have people that are not mature.

a person claiming to have the gift of speaking in tongues really, according to linguistics, was not speaking in enough types of sounds to constitute an actual language, and secondly several different persons claiming to have the gift of interpretation interpreted a recording of this "message" given in tongues, interestingly the interpreter's interpretations contradicted one another and did not match at all.

You need to get your oppinion from those that actually operate in the Gifts of the Spirit and not the World of science so falsely called. It is this very reasoning that we are told Moses crossed he RED SEA, but it was just a puddle. This is why we are Told that the walls of Jerico were brought down by Loud sound vibrations, and not by the power of God. This is why we are told that Jesus could not have been raised from the dead (That does not happen) but was burried somewhere in a box with his name on it. These gifts are spiritual!!! Not to undertood with conventional wisdom of man, and Paul clearly stated that our mind would not understand what we have said. The sound may sound the same over and over with some that pray in tongues, it does not mean the sound, not being the excate same had a different meaning, though it appears to be the same word with natural hearing.

Besides, since we have the Scriptures, we do not need new messages from God. It’s like this… if someone gives a “message” that was spoken in tongues, and their message is interpreted and it contradicts the word of God, it must be rejected

I agree Brother, it must line up with Scripture!!! However there is more to your life, that scripture did not cover. The sheep know his voice, and a child of God is led by the Spirit of God. God has something to say to you!!!My son sick with very high fevor, and 4 different bacteria, 2 which can kill. Was getting no better in ICU. He was also not responding to antibacterial drip. The Doctors were confused and were running every test they could to save him. I could not be with him, I was on Parole. My wife called me and told me that things were getting worse, my sons fevor hit 106, and they were trying their best to keep it down. My wife told me to ask God for wisdom and call her back.I went to the Lord praying in tongues, and got a word of knowledge. My son had a pick line placed in his arm for Chemo treatment. The Lord told me to have the doctors take that pick line out of his arm right away. I called back my wife and told her to tell the doctors to remove my sons pick line. She got a nurse and told the doctors, but they insisted that they have run 2 test on that pick line, and assured her that was not the problem. She was adamit, and they went ahead and removed the whole line from my sons arm. After removing the pick line and running test they found the cause of the Bacteria. So you see Brother it's not just to compare to scripture, it's for your family and own Good. My hope is that you will at least just ask God to show you these things if any are true. Give God a chance to bless you. Don't discount these things, but give God an opertunity and be open to them. If you shut these things off, God won't bother you with it, and you will miss a lot of awesome blessing. God bless you and Jesus Is Lord!!!

 

[watchman]

Well first off the gifts are listed in 1st Corinthians 12, the fruits of the Spirit are in Galations 5. Moreover their is no gift of understanding (in scripture at least). I believe knowledge and understanding would be the same. However there is a separate gift of Wisdom. The difference would be knowledge would tell you what to say and wisdom would show you how to say it.

 

[gumby]

Gifts? i dont know what they are but how are they applied in christianity and what are they?

 

[Elaine]

Wow, Brother Mick - what a testimony - what a post!! Elaine :)

 

[Brother Mike]

I have operated in the Gifts for awhile now. I have been where people goof them up, and seen them working properly when we yield to the Holy Ghost.I will post a full explanation of Each Gift, and how they apply in your life today in a separate Thread. I will also explain how they effect the ministry of the Apostle, Prophet, evangelist, Pastor and Teacher. There is WAY to much of natural man's thinking trying to figure these gifts out, and these are SUPERNATURAL. Churches that don't believe in tongues, Healing, God's perfect Protection will not understand the gifts. If you don't believe in something, then how can you explain it? If you have never spoken in tongues, then your not qualified to teach on tongues. It is only Pride that answer's something it can not.Thank you for the compliment Elaine. Be blessed Sister.Jesus Is Lord.

 

[watchman]

Gifts? i dont know what they are but how are they applied in christianity and what are they?

Read 1st Corinthians 12

 

[epistemaniac]

I was completely confounded. [/COLOR]The Brother said nothing else but turned around and walked away. There was power in his voice, something I could not explain. It was enough to make me throw my letter I started that night, away. Two days latter I got that letter from home, It was filled with lots of hurt on how I upset my family, and they were in the process of trying to forgive me. I knew then, that I wanted the maturity and things those other brothers had with God. I also started to entertain the idea that I should be speaking in those tongues. If we believe on his name, we shall speak in new tongues. (Mark 16) I don't know why it took months to open my eyes to the Power of the Holy Ghost. I had lots of other teaching in me. I am just Glad I did. If I may address some things you posted. Now how would you know? Does your church do this often, or is this just an assumption based on what you have heard and not experienced for any length of time. I have been in service where someone has stood up and just stated to speak tongues. Interupting the whole thing. Unbiblical? yep, but your always going to have people that are not mature.You need to get your oppinion from those that actually operate in the Gifts of the Spirit and not the World of science so falsely called. It is this very reasoning that we are told Moses crossed he RED SEA, but it was just a puddle. This is why we are Told that the walls of Jerico were brought down by Loud sound vibrations, and not by the power of God. This is why we are told that Jesus could not have been raised from the dead (That does not happen) but was burried somewhere in a box with his name on it. These gifts are spiritual!!! Not to undertood with conventional wisdom of man, and Paul clearly stated that our mind would not understand what we have said. The sound may sound the same over and over with some that pray in tongues, it does not mean the sound, not being the excate same had a different meaning, though it appears to be the same word with natural hearing. I agree Brother, it must line up with Scripture!!! However there is more to your life, that scripture did not cover. The sheep know his voice, and a child of God is led by the Spirit of God. God has something to say to you!!!My son sick with very high fevor, and 4 different bacteria, 2 which can kill. Was getting no better in ICU. He was also not responding to antibacterial drip. The Doctors were confused and were running every test they could to save him. I could not be with him, I was on Parole. My wife called me and told me that things were getting worse, my sons fevor hit 106, and they were trying their best to keep it down. My wife told me to ask God for wisdom and call her back.I went to the Lord praying in tongues, and got a word of knowledge. My son had a pick line placed in his arm for Chemo treatment. The Lord told me to have the doctors take that pick line out of his arm right away. I called back my wife and told her to tell the doctors to remove my sons pick line. She got a nurse and told the doctors, but they insisted that they have run 2 test on that pick line, and assured her that was not the problem. She was adamit, and they went ahead and removed the whole line from my sons arm. After removing the pick line and running test they found the cause of the Bacteria. So you see Brother it's not just to compare to scripture, it's for your family and own Good. My hope is that you will at least just ask God to show you these things if any are true. Give God a chance to bless you. Don't discount these things, but give God an opertunity and be open to them. If you shut these things off, God won't bother you with it, and you will miss a lot of awesome blessing. God bless you and Jesus Is Lord!!!

hey Mike... thank you for your heartfelt response... I appreciate your testimony...first, you are right, I am not a total cessationist, eg of those who believe that all the gifts of the spirit have ceased... I am of a position called "open but cautious"... knwing that we live in a creation where God can and does intereven in the world, sometimes quite miraculously... but I am extremely doubful concerning modern tongues speaking as being a true manifestation of the tongues that occurred during the early church...however I do not see the connection between what the brother who did not speak to you too much saying with you suddenly deciding that you needed to speak in tongues... one of the things that bothers me most about this issue is that people seem to forget that the gifts of the Spirit are given by God, sovereignly, as He sees fit... yes you can pray for the gifts but the bible explicitly says 1Co 12:7-11 ESV To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. (8) To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, (10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (11) All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.Paul continues... 1Co 12:28-30 ESV And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? (30) Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"elsewhere he says Eph 4:11 ESV And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,"God has appointed, God is the one who gives gifts according to His wisdom... not man... and many seem to miss the rhetorical question that Paul asks here in 1 Cor. 12:29 ... he asks: will all be apostles?... teachers? ... will all speak in tonues...? etc.. Well the answer to that question is obviously no. So no matter what I hppen to believe about the modern phenomena of tongues speaking (which I think is better termed "ecstatic utterances) the Charismatic/Word of Faith/Pentecostals movement is absolutely wrong in maintaining that everyone will speak in tongues. Secondly I believe that Paul when he speaks of "tongues" he is referring to actual known languages, not to ecstatic utterances... which is the practice common in most Charismatic circles today, as is shown by 1Co 14:21-23 ESV In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." (22) Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. (23) If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?"I believe walking into many charismatic churches today Paul's prophesy about thinking that some people are out of their minds has come to pass...As far as Mark 16 is concerned, Mar 16:16-18 ESV Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (17) And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; (18) they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."do you --- or anyone else here who speaks in tongues-- also routinely drink poison...? Do you also routinely handle poisonous snakes? If you think that Jesus meant that all believers everywhere will speak in tongues (in the ecstatic utterance sense of the term) then why do you not also drink poison and handle poisonous snakes just as often as you speak in tongues?you ask

Now how would you know? Does your church do this often, or is this just an assumption based on what you have heard and not experienced for any length of time.

well I know from first hand experience because I attended charismatic churches for a long time... initially I listened to no one more than Kenneth Copeland... and Jerry Savelle was a close second...

I have been in service where someone has stood up and just stated to speak tongues. Interupting the whole thing. Unbiblical? yep, but your always going to have people that are not mature.

I have seen disruptive practices often in churches... but I am arguing against the modern form of tongue speaking on more of a basis than some who engage in the gifts (in the Pentecostal sense etc) do so in an immature or disruptive way... though that too is an argument against it...

You need to get your oppinion from those that actually operate in the Gifts of the Spirit and not the World of science so falsely called.

I do and I have....

It is this very reasoning that we are told Moses crossed he RED SEA, but it was just a puddle.

To say that I disagree with the modern form of tongue speaking is not to say that I am disagreeing with all things supernatural. This is an unfounded and false accusation against me. I am not saying that the supernatural does not happen, nor that the miraculous does not happen. Again, just because I disagree with the modern form of tongues speaking, it does not follow that I deny that Jesus was resurrected or that the walls of Jericho did not come down... please be careful in what you are actually arguing against... you do not want to erect straw men, mere caricatures of my position, and lump me in with people who are anti-supernaturalistic because this is not only tilting against windmills (it does not apply to me) but it is a subtle form of character assassination, a poisoning of the well... by insinuating that because I disagree with one thing (modern tongue speaking), that I therefore disagree with all these other things (God's supernatural and miraculous intervention) as well...Secondly, even if the Red Sea were little more than a large shallow lake, the account still would have been miraculous... just imagine, God drowned nearly the whole Egyptian army in a shallow lake!!

These gifts are spiritual!!! Not to undertood with conventional wisdom of man, and Paul clearly stated that our mind would not understand what we have said.

I do not disagree that spiritual gifts are, well... spiritual!! :)Again, be careful to actually disagree with what I saying, not about what I am not saying.Secondly on this point, where did Paul say that our mind would not understand what we are saying? Are you referring to 1 Cor. 14:2? Well lets grant for the moment that this is the case, then it would follow that modern tongue speaking is still out of line. "Since tongue speaking is vertically directed to God rather than horizontally addressed to men, it is totally inappropriate for ekklçsia (assembly) worship. Moreover, since it is addressed to God, it is unintelligible to humans. The tongue speaker is speaking mysteries (musthvria, mystçria) with his spirit, a phenomenon with little value for others within earshot." (CPC)But Paul also said that we must have our minds engaged when we worship the Lord. 1Co 14:15-16 ESV What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. (16) Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?"So, again, if people "pray in the spirit" or "sing in the spirit" in the Charismatic understanding of the terms, then if they do so in front of other people it is totally inappropriate. 1Co 14:19-20 ESV Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (20) Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature." A better understanding of what Paul meant in 1 Cor. 14:1ff... As commented on under 12:10, the practice of ecstatic utterances was common in many of the pagan Graeco-Roman religions of Paul's day, including those active in Corinth. Devotees of a god would drink and dance themselves into frenzies until they went into semiconsciousness or even unconsciousness—an experience they considered to be the highest form of communion with the divine. They believed that in such drunkenness their spirits left their bodies and communed directly with the god or gods, a practice to which Paul alludes in Ephesians 5:18. The ecstatic speaking that often accompanied such experiences was thought to be the language of the gods. The terms lalein glossei/glossais (to speak in a tongue/in tongues) that Paul uses so frequently in chapter 14 were commonly used in his day to describe pagan ecstatic speech. The Greeks also used eros to describe the experience. Though commonly used of sexual love, erōs also was used for any strongly sensual feeling or activity, and pagan ecstatic frenzies often were accompanied by sexual orgies and perversions of all sorts. In the church at Corinth much of the tongues-speaking had taken on the form and flavor of those pagan ecstasies. Emotionalism all but neutralized their rational senses, and selfish exhibitionism was common, with everyone wanting to do and say his own thing at the same time (v. 26). Services were bedlam and chaos, with little worship and little edification taking place. Because of the extreme carnality in the church at Corinth, we can be sure that much of the tongues-speaking there was counterfeit. Believers were in no spiritual condition to properly use true spiritual gifts or properly manifest true spiritual fruit. How could a congregation so worldly, opinionated, selfish, cliquish, envious, jealous, divisive, argumentative, arrogant, disorderly, defrauding, inconsiderate, gluttonous, immoral, and desecrative of the Lord's Supper exercise the gifts of the Spirit? For them to have done so would have defied every biblical principle of spirituality. You cannot walk in the Spirit while exercising the flesh. Against the backdrop of such false experiences Paul teaches three basic truths about the gift of tongues: its position is secondary to prophecy (vv. 1-19); its purpose was as a sign to unbelievers (vv. 20-25); and its proper procedure, or use, was systematic and orderly (vv. 26-40). Within the first section, the apostle gives three reasons why the position of tongues Is secondary to that of prophecy: prophecy edifies the whole congregation; tongues are unintelligible; and the effects of tongues are emotional rather than rational. The type of tongues the Corinthians practiced had no edifying value at all. It could not speak to men; it could give them no instruction or exhortation. It could only speak to God. I believe a better translation, however, is "to a god." The Greek has no definite article, and such anarthrous constructions usually are translated with an indefinite article (see Acts 17:23, where the same form of theō [god] is used in reference to "an unknown god"). The translation here of "a god" is supported by the fact that the Bible records no instance of believers speaking to God in anything but normal, intelligible language. Even in Jesus' great high priestly prayer (John 17), in which the Son poured out His heart to the Father, when deity communed with deity, the language is remarkably simple and clear. Jesus in fact warned against using "meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words" (Matt. 6:7). His reference included the repetitious and unintelligible gibberish of pagan tongues-speaking, in which certain meaningless sounds were repeated over and over again. The instructional prayer Jesus then gave, commonly called the Lord's Prayer, is a model of simplicity and clarity. The carnal Corinthians, however, were much more interested in the sophisticated than the simple, in the mysterious rather than the edifying. They did not care that no one understands, or literally, "no one hears." Their concern was for the excitement and self-gratification of speaking mysteries in the spirit. They did not care that the mysteries had no meaning to themselves or to anyone else. The mysteries Paul has in mind here are of the type associated with the pagan mystery religions, out of which many of the Corinthian Christians had come. Unlike the mysteries of the gospel, which are revelations of things previously hidden (Matt. 13:11; Eph. 3:9; etc.), the pagan mysteries intentionally remained mysterious, as unknown truths and principles that supposedly only the initiated elite were privileged to know. The spirit to which Paul refers is not the Holy Spirit, as some interpreters claim, but the person's own spirit, as implied in the Greek (locative case) and indicated in the nasb by his (cf. vv. 14-16). Paul is not advocating tongues, but simply characterizing the uselessness of efforts to counterfeit them. A believer who properly ministers a true spiritual gift ministers not to a false god, but to others. One who prophesies, for example, speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. The purpose of prophecy is to build up by edification, to encourage through exhortation, and to comfort through consolation. Spiritual gifts are meant to accomplish something spiritually and practically worthwhile, and are always meant to be of benefit to others, believer or unbeliever. On the other hand, one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. I believe Paul's point here is sarcastic. (His sarcasm can also be seen in 4:8-10, and reaches its height in 14:16, "was it from you that the word of God first went forth?") Because even true tongues must be interpreted in order to be understood, they cannot possibly edify anyone, including the person speaking, without such interpretation. They cannot, therefore, be intended by God for private devotional use, as many Pentecostals and charismatics claim. Paul here is referring to the supposed value the Corinthians placed on their self-styled tongues-speaking. The satisfaction many of the believers experienced in their abuse of tongues was self-satisfaction, which came from pride-induced emotion, not from spiritual edification. It is an illegitimate self-building, often building up nothing more than spiritual pride. The believer, however, who prophesies edifies the church. That person uses his gift to minister, as all the gifts are meant to do. The purpose of gifts, Paul was saying, is to minister for God but not to God. Their purpose certainly is not to selfishly minister to ourselves, as some of the Corinthian believers thought they were doing by speaking in tongues. Our gifts are to minister to others for God's glory. "To each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (12:7). MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – 1 Corinthians.

aul clearly stated that our mind would not understand what we have said. The sound may sound the same over and over with some that pray in tongues, it does not mean the sound, not being the excate same had a different meaning, though it appears to be the same word with natural hearing.

all understandings of language, say that while we may have some synonyms etc if the same word came to mean many many different and contradictory things, then it would basically come to mean nothing at all... when a person who thinks they are speaking in tongues repeats the same "phrase" over and over again I believe they are violating Jesus command to not engage in meaningless repetition.. ... Mat 6:7 NASB "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

I agree Brother, it must line up with Scripture!!! However there is more to your life, that scripture did not cover. The sheep know his voice, and a child of God is led by the Spirit of God. God has something to say to you!!!

yes, everything must line up with Scripture...and i agree that there are some things the Scripture does not cover, like atomic bombs or the internet, but there are principles that goven the use of both those things... but, in the case of tongues, we do have scriptural commands as to what it ought to be, and how it ought to be engaged im...yes, i agree that Jesus' sheep will always hear His voice...and that a child of God is led by the Spirit...and that God has something to say to me... He has in fact already said it, its either directly in the Scriptures, or can be deduced from the Scriptures by good and necessary consequence...I am glad that your son got better, and again, don't confuse what I am disagreeing with with what I do agree with... I firmly believe that God is actively working in the lives of His people to this very day... and I do not doubt that God could have revealed to you the source of your son's infection... God could have easily revealed that to you with tongues or without it... that you felt that you had to pray in tongues is just something you personally had to do, but I do not see any scriptural command to do so... and just because God healed your son, it does not follow that we have to speak in tongues, and no offense, I know you are a sincere Christian and mean well.. we just disagree...blessings,ken

 

[epistemaniac]

[quote name='Brother Mike;72261]I have operated in the Gifts for awhile now. I have been where people goof them up' date=' and seen them working properly when we yield to the Holy Ghost.I will post a full explanation of Each Gift, and how they apply in your life today in a separate Thread. I will also explain how they effect the ministry of the Apostle, Prophet, evangelist, Pastor and Teacher. There is WAY to much of natural man's thinking trying to figure these gifts out, and these are SUPERNATURAL. Churches that don't believe in tongues, Healing, God's perfect Protection will not understand the gifts. If you don't believe in something, then how can you explain it? If you have never spoken in tongues, then your not qualified to teach on tongues. It is only Pride that answer's something it can not.Thank you for the compliment Elaine. Be blessed Sister.Jesus Is Lord.[/QUOTE']again, do not assume that just because some one disagrees with your particular subjective understanding of what 'the gifts" are, and how you happen to suppose they operate, with the idea that if someone does disagree that they are somehow "a natural man" meaning not enlightened by the Holy Spirit etc... looking at the history of the church we see that after the birth of the church, there were hundreds of millions of Christian who lived and died before the recent Charismatic phenomenon of the Azusa street revivals, and none of these people, these great Spirit led mean and women of God, spoke in tongues... now you would think that if it was as really a big deal as modern charismatics want to make it, then the church would have steadily engaged in this practice since the birth of the NT church... but you just don't see it happening... so just like the doctrine of the secret rapture of the church, these are modern innovations unknown to the church of God for nearly 2 thousand years, and men and women led of God, moving and operating int he gifts of the Spirit did quite well without speaking in tongues...secondly, I do not believe in the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons, but I can explain quite well what their doctrines are and where I believe they fall short of biblical Christianity. So too, just because I disagree with the modern movement of tongues speaking, I can describe it and speak to it just fine. To say that someone has to personally experience something before they can first speak to the issue is just a logical fallacy. I have never experienced dying and rising from the dead, but I can speak just fine concerning Jesus' death and resurrection... and so it could go, on and on where we all speak to issues like this... or, to use another point, lets say we applied this reasoning to you... well are you a Calvinist? I did not think so. But since you are not a Calvinist and have not personally experienced what it means to be a Calvinist, then, again using your own reasoning, then you could not speak to Calvinism, could not critique it, can't really say anything about it because you personally are not a Calvinist. I doubt very much that you would agree with this. Well then the same goes for speaking about speaking in tongues... just because I have never spoken in tongues... at least according to YOUR individual understanding and definition of what speaking in tongues MUST mean, then it just simply does not follow that I cannot speak to the issue.and PRIDE has nothing to do with it... for modern charismatics are some of the most prideful people I have personally meant... and I have met some very prideful non-Charismatics as well... but whether they are prideful or not has nothing to do with whether or not the doctrine of modern tongues speaking is biblical or not...so it is a subtle form of character assassination to insinuate that just because I disagree with you on a given theological issue that I somehow have issues with PRIDE... think this through... does everyone who disagrees with you have PRIDE issues...? does the fact that you disagree with ME mean that you therefore must have PRIDE issues? Of course not. So just because we disagree, PRIDE does not NECESSARILY have anything to with the issues...blessings,ken

 

[Brother Mike]

epistemaniac: WoW, Should I just come over and we talk about this over some cool aid. Thank you for the Post!!!! I won't even attempt to respond to everything as you had lots to say. I just wish we could "TAlK" and get to know how each other things about things. 1) Why I connected the tongues, to that brother having a message for me is because those brothers babbled in tongues constantly. (It was a issue, shall we say. with me.) I loved them, good brothers, but it was The first time I experienced God in a supernatural Way, concerning something that was hurting me. I figured if that is true, I should reconsider the tongue babbling.

but I can explain quite well what their doctrines are...........

2) I can understand your whole point. It is a valid Point. The issue is that, just as there are bad calvins, there are bad tongue talking doctrines. Let me say this, you would make a better preacher at your church when it comes to your Churches belief's. I might know the doctrine, but the people would not make the connection with me (without Gods help) If I were speaking to them, I would unknowingly slant toward my doctrine which they may be opposed to. We both see things in the Word, we know to be true, but have not seen. We can explain them to others, even though we have not experienced them yet. I have been in the Word of Faith circle for awhile and Penecoastals. It's not the same. I have seen lots of goofy things when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, but I know the gifts are real. So, it would make sense to send you to teach on those things God has revealed to you, and send someone else to teach those things God revealed to them.When I was locked up, I was the one in charge of several Christains toward the end of my prison time. About 30 in my own wing. Those that could teach, I would have them take turns every week for our bible study. It seemed every denomination was present. If someone was sick, they come to me or a Word of faith guy. If it was a new guy, one of the baptist would teach them about salvation. I don't know how, but it worked.

So no matter what I hppen to believe about the modern phenomena of tongues speaking (which I think is better termed "ecstatic utterances) the Charismatic/Word of Faith/Pentecostals movement is absolutely wrong in maintaining that everyone will speak in tongues.

I made this clear in what Paul was talking about in my other thread on this forum. Paul was putting a order to things, and used the ministery callings to get everyone to understand that you just don't stand up in middle of service and start blabbing tongues. The gifts of Healings are just that, an anointing of God to get people healed. It's given as the Spirit Wills. Tongues is listed in Mark 16: Jesus said if you believe in my name you shall speak in new Tongues. The "Word of faith" folks believe that if Jesus said it, then it's true and not to be taken out of context with being decent and in order in a church setting. NOBODY has the ability to lay hands on the sick and have them recover. I explain more in my other thread.If there is a pencoastal doctrine I don't like, its the one where we are told that if you don't speak in tongeus then your not filled with the Spirit of God and not sealed until the day of redemption. That is a form of a Elite doctrine, that if you don't belive like we do, you go to hell. It's false!!!

do you --- or anyone else here who speaks in tongues-- also routinely drink poison...? Do you also routinely handle poisonous snakes? If you think that Jesus meant that all believers everywhere will speak in tongues (in the ecstatic utterance sense of the term) then why do you not also drink poison and handle poisonous snakes just as often as you speak in tongues?

I use the KJV, it reads "IF" you drink, as it is written you shall not tempt God. Take up serpents is not talking about snakes, but having authority over an area ruled by mean men, and devils. In order to preach. (Look at the Greek) I did drink Bleach someone put in my coffee one time, that scripture is true, but I would not suggest anyone try it. It's not your fault, but this is a generalization of what some believe. Sadly, there are some dumb dead folks that have attempted to preach with poisonous snakes, and if you think it meant snakes, it never said anything about them having to be poisonous.

well I know from first hand experience because I attended charismatic churches for a long time... initially I listened to no one more than Kenneth Copeland... and Jerry Savelle was a close second...

Very awesome brothers in the Lord. I am thankful for Brother Copeland and all the free material he sent me in prison. I believe my son is alive today because of it. Jerry comes and visits us from time to time, and my Pastor is on Believers Voice of Victory pretty often and is good friends with Brother Copeland, who comes once a year to visit us for the Branson Victory campaign. His Granddaughter currently attends our church.

I have seen disruptive practices often in churches... but I am arguing against the modern form of tongue speaking on more of a basis than some who engage in the gifts (in the Pentecostal sense etc) do so in an immature or disruptive way... though that too is an argument against it...

I went to visit a Pentecostal church that is pretty popular. They were all speaking in tongues, and jumping all over the place. Then came a message that Jesus was a new born child on the earth to reign in the last days. God bless them, but...........................I see your point.

They cannot, therefore, be intended by God for private devotional use, as many Pentecostals and charismatics claim. Paul here is referring to the supposed value the Corinthians placed on their self-styled tongues-speaking.

Your last part was very long, but I think this covers what you were trying to say. I belong to a Word of Faith church. Keith Moore, who studied under Brother Hagin for many years. I very seldom Hear tongues until the end of service when we have the music before leaving. Never during service. I have been in smaller prayer circles where someone spoke in tongues and someone interpeted, but that does not fly during an organized chruch service. I speak in tongues during my prayer time, and I can tell you it is well worth the effort to at least look into. I guess it's something you have to be open to and experience.

and I do not doubt that God could have revealed to you the source of your son's infection... God could have easily revealed that to you with tongues or without it... that you felt that you had to pray in tongues is just something you personally had to do, but I do not see any scriptural command to do so.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. I don't go for that groaning, most of it is just flesh getting in the way. I pray in tongues, because I don't even want to pretend to understand the whole situation. I trust in the Holy Ghost, and want to keep my natural thinking out of the way. God can speak to you at any time, you don't have to use tongues, and in this case I won't say God needed tongues to give me wisdom about something. God did heal my son, but once they found the source, He still stayed in intensive care for 3 more days. How God fixes things is up to Him, and I thank Him for the Wisdom for what the Doctors could not see.There you go Brother. I hope this was satisfactory. I love you and God bless you. Jesus Is Lord

 

[walker starrfta99]

May GOD bless you. Thank you for your testimony. thank you Jesus,amen. I really needed this at this time in my life.

 

[gumby]

Read 1st Corinthians 12

I see now, this is talking about the many membered body of christ and how we as christians fit into it.