Do Full Body Scans/searches Illustrate Something More?

[HammerStone]

If you haven't heard about this topic yet, you're probably living in a cave. (Perhaps that's not such a bad thing?)

The TSA has begun searching passengers rather intrusively regardless of gender, skin color, religious affiliation, or even age. To make a long story short, these scans involve actually seeing male and female private parts and essentially your entire body. The searches are the alternative and they involve a complete pat-down even in the uncomfortable aforementioned areas. The news media is full of images and horror stories while this process is still relatively young.

I've seen some comments from both sides - essentially passengers and TSA employees - with the passengers upset and the TSA employees referring to their training and their duty to protect American citizens.

My questions for you are:

1) How do you feel about this whole process? Necessary security or is it a broken and invasive policy?
2) Can you relate it to any specific experiences in Scripture?
3) Is this a one-off issue that has come up, or do you feel this is something that illustrates other problems within the American government? (IE: Invasion of privacy, government overreach, poor governing, etc.)

I think this event is one of those rare instances where "left and right" are finding agreement. We seem to only get this every so often, but does this illustrate an issue that most feel strongly about?

What are your thoughts?

 

[bud02]

I've lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth — That God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that except the Lord build the House they labor in vain who build it. I firmly believe this, — and I also believe that without his concurring Aid, we shall succeed in this political Building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our Projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a Reproach and Bye word down to future Ages.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

I believe both the cause and effect were spoken of many years ago. Thank you Benjamin

 

[aspen]

My questions for you are:

1) How do you feel about this whole process? Necessary security or is it a broken and invasive policy?
2) Can you relate it to any specific experiences in Scripture?
3) Is this a one-off issue that has come up, or do you feel this is something that illustrates other problems within the American government? (IE: Invasion of privacy, government overreach, poor governing, etc.)

I think this event is one of those rare instances where "left and right" are finding agreement. We seem to only get this every so often, but does this illustrate an issue that most feel strongly about?

What are your thoughts?

1. Honestly, I am horrified. I think the whole issue proves that the government is desperate and has no idea how to protect people on planes. The effort is futile anyway - airplanes are on one of a thousand ways terrorists can attack us.

2. Not off hand - I am not sure life was valued 2,000 years ago in the same way it is today.

3. I think it is an extension of the Bush years - wire tapping, intercepting emails, paying other countries to torture for us, off shore prisons, etc. Although I think you are right - this goes across party lines - Bush just happened to be the president at the time of the attack.

I do not plan on taking my family on a plane, anytime soon. - I think this desperate move by the government violates our civil rights and tells us that air travel is not as safe as we are being told it actually is.

Peace

 

[JohnDB]

As heard from a TSA agent,

"Can't see London,
Can't see France,
Till I see your underpants"

It is our Governments feeble attempt to placate and provide a feeling of security to people.

Of course now that it is getting really difficult to take over a plane or blow one out of the sky the terrorists will try any one of a number of different easy targets.
America is a target rich environment...there is no way to secure it all.

I can't remember who said, "Those that trade freedom for security will end up with neither. " but he was a smart one.

 

[[email protected]]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
The 4th amendment of the US Constitution

I find it noteable that in all the media coverage of this issue, the 4th amendment of the US Constitution is ignored.
Originally part of what is now humorously called the Bill of Rights, the 4th Amendment is being put aside in favor of pretended threats against the general population.

EXCEPT that Homeland Security head Napolitano has ruled Muslim women exempt from search below the head and shoulders.

The bottom line is that instead of the government being restricted by law, it is now granting or revolking liberty at its own discretion.
The true issue is not a choice between the bug Zapper or Mr. Feeler. It is between liberty or a false sense of security.

"Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."
- my first accounting professor

The media is fond of quoting surveys (none of which agree in their tally) which reinforce the impression that the American population is ready willing and able to give up its pretended liberty for the safety and convenience of fast travel.

"Give me liberty or give me death."- Nathan Hale

I submit that Mr. Hale was a courageous fool.
He gave up his life for an ideal which no one today recognizes, accepts or practices.
The ficticious adventures of Harry Potter are more popular than the life and sacrifice of Mr. Hale and his peers.

As for me, I would rather risk death by terrorist than the certain loss of my liberty by a repressive government.

The context of scripture reveals that God is in the business of personal liberty; freedom from sin and the corruption it brings to body, spirit and community.
(See Exodus for starters)

All of this is part of a general judgment upon America.
- For the sin of arrogance and the pride of life
- For the foolishness of reliance upon our own wisdom
- For the denial and rejection of God Himself...

God has determined that wisdom and liberty shall flee the land.

Do not argue from the point of view of wishful thinking. Look around and be persuaded of what you see with your eyes and hear with your ears.
Prayers for wisdom to our leaders are unheard. Every decision in Washington seems to have a foolish result.
Prayers for liberty for our people are not answered. Rules breed repression and we are awash in a sea of nonsense and formidable regulation.

Prayers for those who are called by HIS NAME are indeed heard; in wisdom, in freedom and in hope.
Godly wisdom to solve problems comes to us from unhoped for places.
Succor in time of need comes unasked for and from unusual sources.
We are learning the wonderful lesson that though our God abandon our country, He will never leave those who love and fear Him.

In the midst of this bedlam, those who are faithful shall see the wondrous deliverance that only Christ can bring to us as individual members of His body.
Not to the country, mind you, but to those who have learned and are learning to rely upon Him for their supply, their salvation and their joy.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
A TALE OF TWO CITIES
Charles Dickens

These are indeed the worst of times and the best of times. For the pleasures and assurance of the flesh it is a growing horror.
For the deliverance of the body and salvation of the spirit, it is a time of great hope and rejoicing.

"Repression is the only lasting philosophy. The dark deference of fear and slavery, my friend, will keep the dogs obedient to the whip, as long as this roof, shuts out the sky."
- the Marquis St. Evrémonde
A TALE OF TWO CITIES
Charles Dickens


Pundits such as Glenn Beck have advised their fans to lay up resources for themselves to endure the coming shortages and expenses of "the new system".
The "new system" is certainly upon us, but the Good Book advises a different strategy for survival.

"Your gold and your silver are rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up your treasure in the last days." Jas 5:3

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust doth consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also." Mat 6:19-21

"And he that supplieth seed to the sower and bread for food, shall supply and multiply your seed for sowing, and increase the fruits of your righteousness:"2Co 9:10

 

[aspen]

As heard from a TSA agent,

"Can't see London,
Can't see France,
Till I see your underpants"

It is our Governments feeble attempt to placate and provide a feeling of security to people.

Of course now that it is getting really difficult to take over a plane or blow one out of the sky the terrorists will try any one of a number of different easy targets.
America is a target rich environment...there is no way to secure it all.

I can't remember who said, "Those that trade freedom for security will end up with neither. " but he was a smart one.

I bet Palin could see Russia......

 

[mikefaulkner]

1) How do you feel about this whole process? Necessary security or is it a broken and invasive policy?
2) Can you relate it to any specific experiences in Scripture?
3) Is this a one-off issue that has come up, or do you feel this is something that illustrates other problems within the American government? (IE: Invasion of privacy, government overreach, poor governing, etc.)

1. I have nothing to hide and I am not afraid of my body enough to allow a computerized 3D image be viewed by a trained TSA agent doing the job that he is paid to do which is to protect us from another terror attack. If you are scared about having a guy or girl see a 3D image of you in a small 8x10 monitor that only they can see then take the bus, drive yourself, or take the boat.


2. No, not at this time.


3. I feel it illustrates a problem with people more so the Government. As the people we know the technology exists to stop someone from strapping bombs to them and walking through security or if they opt out of the 3D scanner they get searched...very well, and yet we are complaining because we are scared of the idea of letting someone see a model of us naked. If we took the system out today and tomorrow a plane hit another building or blew up the people would be crying out for blood against eh TSA and the Government for not making us safe. I am afraid to state an old saying here but "you cant have your cake and eat it too"

 

[TexUs]

4th Amendment says this is unreasonable searching.

Does the TSA actually suspect everyone going through the scanners as TERRORISTS? Nope. So it's unreasonable.

Simple as that.

 

[mikefaulkner]

4th Amendment says this is unreasonable searching.

Does the TSA actually suspect everyone going through the scanners as TERRORISTS? Nope. So it's unreasonable.

Simple as that.

Well, as I said earlier though, its the rules the Airlines companies have and seeings as they are well within their rights to make any laws the feel is needed for the safety and security of their customers if people don't want to go through the screening process...then don't fly.

Its that simple.

 

[TexUs]

Well, as I said earlier though, its the rules the Airlines companies have and seeings as they are well within their rights to make any laws the feel is needed for the safety and security of their customers if people don't want to go through the screening process...then don't fly.

Its that simple.

Please provide me the Constitutional reference that says I have to give up my rights to do anything in this country.

Suppose I said... "If you work for this country, equal opportunity rights go out the window". Don't think that'll happen? What excuses the airlines?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

It's funny, I don't even let the people at walmart check my receipt when I leave. At this point in life, I don't fly. I prefer to drive, I love road trips anyway.

However, I do feel it's invasive but for some reason doesn't bother me much. That said, when I do plan to fly rest assured I'll be wearing the Tshirts and Underwear that has the 4th amendment printed on them. :lol:

 

[mikefaulkner]

Please provide me the Constitutional reference that says I have to give up my rights to do anything in this country.

Suppose I said... "If you work for this country, equal opportunity rights go out the window". Don't think that'll happen? What excuses the airlines?

If you agreed with the Homeland Security Act and or voted in anyone that voted the bill in that passed making it legal for the Government to keep wire taps on you, what you checked out at the library, and preform operations across America that in the case of extreme circumstances would allow the Government to place American Citizens in jail for right to free speech you signed the contract to give up your rights.

Furthermore lets not forget that planes are what started the whole mess in the fact they where used to destroy the Twin towers and hit the Pentagon. In other words lets say we didn't use these new scanners and a plane was used to crash into a big name Hospital or something I bet most people would be complaining that America didn't do enough to protect the people...its a catch 22 either the Government takes steps to protect the people or we let people have freedom and possibly get killed...dangers game of Roulette if you ask me.

 

[TexUs]

If you agreed with the Homeland Security Act and or voted in anyone that voted the bill in that passed making it legal for the Government to keep wire taps on you, what you checked out at the library, and preform operations across America that in the case of extreme circumstances would allow the Government to place American Citizens in jail for right to free speech you signed the contract to give up your rights.

No, I didn't.
The Constitution, weather or not they like it, is still the supreme document of the land. A company can't force someone to give up rights. Again: answer my question, where in the Constitution does it say my rights are void if I enter an airport?

Furthermore lets not forget that planes are what started the whole mess in the fact they where used to destroy the Twin towers and hit the Pentagon.

Ahhh yes, "planes kill!", huh?

Planes don't kill. People kill.

In other words lets say we didn't use these new scanners and a plane was used to crash into a big name Hospital or something I bet most people would be complaining that America didn't do enough to protect the people...its a catch 22 either the Government takes steps to protect the people or we let people have freedom and possibly get killed...dangers game of Roulette if you ask me.

The problem is that these scanners don't protect against ANYTHING. The TSA only implemented them after someone was caught with bomb underwear, only after a printer cartridge bomb was discovered, etc... They are reactionary, not proactive. And in case you don't read the AlQaeda circular (I'm guessing you don't), they already know how to get around these systems. It's not hard. Why haven't we had a bombing? It's not because of the TSA. It's because the terrorists know 9/11 united us. That's bad for them. They accomplished their mission to strike fear into the heart of America: now they are infringing on our rights without even having to do anything- at the hands of our government! Additionally, they know we are financially destroying ourselves. (Again, all this is in the AlQaeda circulars).
The TSA isn't protecting anything, it's just a farse.

And if you want to know why the TSA has implemented these scanners, do you suppose it has any bearing on the former Homeland security and TSA chiefs working and profiting from the sales at the company that makes the scanners????

 

[mikefaulkner]

No, I didn't.
The Constitution, weather or not they like it, is still the supreme document of the land. A company can't force someone to give up rights. Again: answer my question, where in the Constitution does it say my rights are void if I enter an airport?


Ahhh yes, "planes kill!", huh?

Planes don't kill. People kill.


The problem is that these scanners don't protect against ANYTHING. The TSA only implemented them after someone was caught with bomb underwear, only after a printer cartridge bomb was discovered, etc... They are reactionary, not proactive. And in case you don't read the AlQaeda circular (I'm guessing you don't), they already know how to get around these systems. It's not hard. Why haven't we had a bombing? It's not because of the TSA. It's because the terrorists know 9/11 united us. That's bad for them. They accomplished their mission to strike fear into the heart of America: now they are infringing on our rights without even having to do anything- at the hands of our government! Additionally, they know we are financially destroying ourselves. (Again, all this is in the AlQaeda circulars).
The TSA isn't protecting anything, it's just a farse.

And if you want to know why the TSA has implemented these scanners, do you suppose it has any bearing on the former Homeland security and TSA chiefs working and profiting from the sales at the company that makes the scanners????

The best way to strike fear is not only though the bombings but also stating things that may or may not be true, false information can be just as keen and useful as truthful information a tactic that the US Special Operations and US Intelligence officers have preformed for many years. Let us also not forget the part of history where America created the Taliban to fight against the Soviets with the promise of helping their country after the war...guess what we didn't we let them rot, so its only natural they are angry at us though that doesn't give them the right to kill innocent people. The point I am making though is that while people kill people its also the people that like to place blame on any and every scape goat that they can find.

Today its the TSA, tomorrow its the Government, then maybe the plane operators, the Airlines themselves, the only ones we can really blame is ourselves. The bad thing about a Democracy is that you can vote your freedom away...guess what...we did.

 

[TexUs]

America has never been a Democracy.

I will agree the problem is that we the people have been asleep at the wheel and Uncle Sam took over. But I still hold to my opinion that there is nothing good about the TSA, it's a farse.

 

[mikefaulkner]

America has never been a Democracy.

I will agree the problem is that we the people have been asleep at the wheel and Uncle Sam took over. But I still hold to my opinion that there is nothing good about the TSA, it's a farse.

Most Governments are shells of what they are suppose to be, you are right a true Democracy ended soon after its inception just like there has never been a true Communist Government because the only man that would have made it so was exiled by Stalin. Personally I believe we live in a Corporate Police State and my proof is in the bail out money, had we lived in a Democracy they would have never got the money...same for the Free Market had it been a real Free Market the bail out would have never happened.

 

[[email protected]]

Most Governments are shells of what they are suppose to be, you are right a true Democracy ended soon after its inception just like there has never been a true Communist Government because the only man that would have made it so was exiled by Stalin. Personally I believe we live in a Corporate Police State and my proof is in the bail out money, had we lived in a Democracy they would have never got the money...same for the Free Market had it been a real Free Market the bail out would have never happened.

I am forced into agreement here.

As an aside, I note that media and government labeling of our present economic difficulty is 'recession' even though the technical definition of a depression is two or more years of recession. Could it be that the REAL definition of depression is when banks fail and corporate executives are out of work & money? Nobody cares if the working stiff is out of work.

 

[TexUs]

I am forced into agreement here.

As an aside, I note that media and government labeling of our present economic difficulty is 'recession' even though the technical definition of a depression is two or more years of recession. Could it be that the REAL definition of depression is when banks fail and corporate executives are out of work & money? Nobody cares if the working stiff is out of work.

Great Depression... Unemployment was what, 25%?
We aren't anywhere near that.

I won't call this a Depression yet. The government is artificially preventing it from being so. But as with all houses of cards, they fall down. We'll sail right by the Great Depression and we will see the Great Destruction in a couple years in my opinion.
2011 will start the downslide. The question is how fast the rest of the world and the people react to it, the question is if other countries do anything to keep the world economy afloat (And again- this only delays it). So the Great Destruction might happen overnight or it could take another year or two- but there's just nothing I see that will keep the economy afloat.

 

[mikefaulkner]

Due the fact we no longer use the Gold Standard the dollar has fallen in value as well as high rate of inflation and the Chinese owning a great deal of not just America's debt but the World's debt the United States has no one to blame for its problems but itself and its Free Market Economy that has allowed the corruption of the Economic system allowing the rich elite to rule over the majority. In America and the rest of the world after Globalization the mighty dollar is worth more then a life, the saying I have heard on many shows and in many forums is "everything has a price including your life, how much is it worth?" The one who controls the flow of money is the one that will control the world.

 

[Martin W.]

This whole thing came about because somebody decided that profiling terrorists amounted to racial profiling.

Need someone to blame ..... check out who is against profiling. It is not the government or the airline employees.