Don't "feel" love?

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Willie T

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I got a bit of the usual hateful "Well, then, you aren't a Christian." rhetoric that floats around this forum because I told someone I did not love them. I got to thinking about that, and ran across this:

The imprecatory parts of psalms are virtually always found in laments. Psalm 3, described in detail above, contains in verse 7 an imprecation that, like most others found in the Psalms, is brief and therefore not likely to be highly offensive. But some imprecations are rather lengthy and harsh (see parts of Ps. 12, 35, 58, 59, 69, 70, 83, 109, 137, 140). Consider, for example, Psalm 137:7–9:

7Remember, O Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us —
9he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137 is a lament for the suffering endured by the Israelites in the Exile; their capital, Jerusalem, had been destroyed, and their land had been taken from them by the Babylonians, aided and encouraged by the Edomites (cf. the book of Obadiah). Heeding God’s Word, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay” (Deut. 32:35; cf. Romans 12:19) the composer of this lament calls for judgment according to the covenant curses (see chap. 10). Included in these curses is provision for the annihilation of the whole wicked society, including family members (Deut. 32:25; cf. Deut. 28: 53–57). Nothing in the Scripture teaches, of course that this temporal judgment should be seen as indicating anything about the eternal destiny of such family members.

What the psalmist has done in Psalm 137 is to tell God about the feelings of the suffering Israelites, using hyperbolic language of the same extreme sort found in the covenant curses themselves. The fact that the psalmist seems to be addressing the Babylonians directly is simply a function of the style of the psalm — he also addresses Jerusalem directly in verse 5. It is God who is the actual hearer of these angry words (v. 7), just as it should be God, and God alone, who hears our angry words. Understood in their context as part of the language of the laments, and used rightly to channel and control our potentially sinful anger, the imprecatory psalms can indeed help keep us from sin. To harbor or display anger against others is something we should all avoid (Matt. 5:22).

The imprecatory psalms do not contradict Jesus’ teaching to love our enemies. We tend wrongly to equate “love” with “having a warm feeling toward.” Jesus’ teaching, however, defines love actively. It is not so much how you feel about a certain person, but what you do for that person that shows love (Luke 10:25–37). The biblical command is to do love, not to feel love. In a related way, the imprecatory psalms help us, when we feel anger, not to do anger. We should honestly express our anger to God, no matter how bitterly and hatefully we feel it, and let God take care of justice against those who misuse us. The foe who continues to do evil in the face of our forbearance is in big trouble indeed (Romans 12:20). The proper function of these psalms, then, is to help us not to be “overcome by evil,” but to help free us from our anger, that we might “overcome evil with good” (Romans 12:21).

A final word: The term “hate” in the Psalms has been commonly misunderstood. When the psalmist says, “I have nothing but hatred for them” (Ps. 139:22), he is not expressing sin. Otherwise God’s declaration, “Esau I have hated” (Mal. 1:3; cf. Romans 9:13), would prove him a sinner. The Hebrew word translated “hate” does in some contexts mean “despise.” But it can also mean “be unwilling or unable to put up with” or “reject,” both standard definitions in the Hebrew lexicons for this word. Therefore, on this account as well there should be no presumption that the language of the imprecatory psalms violates the Scriptures’ teaching elsewhere, including Matthew 5:22.
 

Episkopos

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I think Christians should definitely hate. We need to hate behaviour...when it itself is unloving. So then this is just another way to love.
God hates sin and every false way...which we should also hate.

But we should never hate a person. Only God sees the final outcome....only He can judge. If we hate someone that means we are judging them in a final way...which we can't do.

When you add in that we also have done hateful things...that takes us 2 steps away from ever hating.

Maybe we should hate ourselves at times....but not others.
 

Nancy

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I got a bit of the usual hateful "Well, then, you aren't a Christian." rhetoric that floats around this forum because I told someone I did not love them. I got to thinking about that, and ran across this:

The imprecatory parts of psalms are virtually always found in laments. Psalm 3, described in detail above, contains in verse 7 an imprecation that, like most others found in the Psalms, is brief and therefore not likely to be highly offensive. But some imprecations are rather lengthy and harsh (see parts of Ps. 12, 35, 58, 59, 69, 70, 83, 109, 137, 140). Consider, for example, Psalm 137:7–9:

7Remember, O Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us —
9he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137 is a lament for the suffering endured by the Israelites in the Exile; their capital, Jerusalem, had been destroyed, and their land had been taken from them by the Babylonians, aided and encouraged by the Edomites (cf. the book of Obadiah). Heeding God’s Word, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay” (Deut. 32:35; cf. Romans 12:19) the composer of this lament calls for judgment according to the covenant curses (see chap. 10). Included in these curses is provision for the annihilation of the whole wicked society, including family members (Deut. 32:25; cf. Deut. 28: 53–57). Nothing in the Scripture teaches, of course that this temporal judgment should be seen as indicating anything about the eternal destiny of such family members.

What the psalmist has done in Psalm 137 is to tell God about the feelings of the suffering Israelites, using hyperbolic language of the same extreme sort found in the covenant curses themselves. The fact that the psalmist seems to be addressing the Babylonians directly is simply a function of the style of the psalm — he also addresses Jerusalem directly in verse 5. It is God who is the actual hearer of these angry words (v. 7), just as it should be God, and God alone, who hears our angry words. Understood in their context as part of the language of the laments, and used rightly to channel and control our potentially sinful anger, the imprecatory psalms can indeed help keep us from sin. To harbor or display anger against others is something we should all avoid (Matt. 5:22).

The imprecatory psalms do not contradict Jesus’ teaching to love our enemies. We tend wrongly to equate “love” with “having a warm feeling toward.” Jesus’ teaching, however, defines love actively. It is not so much how you feel about a certain person, but what you do for that person that shows love (Luke 10:25–37). The biblical command is to do love, not to feel love. In a related way, the imprecatory psalms help us, when we feel anger, not to do anger. We should honestly express our anger to God, no matter how bitterly and hatefully we feel it, and let God take care of justice against those who misuse us. The foe who continues to do evil in the face of our forbearance is in big trouble indeed (Romans 12:20). The proper function of these psalms, then, is to help us not to be “overcome by evil,” but to help free us from our anger, that we might “overcome evil with good” (Romans 12:21).

A final word: The term “hate” in the Psalms has been commonly misunderstood. When the psalmist says, “I have nothing but hatred for them” (Ps. 139:22), he is not expressing sin. Otherwise God’s declaration, “Esau I have hated” (Mal. 1:3; cf. Romans 9:13), would prove him a sinner. The Hebrew word translated “hate” does in some contexts mean “despise.” But it can also mean “be unwilling or unable to put up with” or “reject,” both standard definitions in the Hebrew lexicons for this word. Therefore, on this account as well there should be no presumption that the language of the imprecatory psalms violates the Scriptures’ teaching elsewhere, including Matthew 5:22.
I agree Willie T. Biblical love is not a feeling, it is a sacrificial thing...putting others above ourselves. It's impossible to "love" someone in that human definition if you do not know them, or even like them! We can still show Gods love by esteeming them higher than ourselves.
 

Helen

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I agree Willie T. Biblical love is not a feeling, it is a sacrificial thing...putting others above ourselves. It's impossible to "love" someone in that human definition if you do not know them, or even like them! We can still show Gods love by esteeming them higher than ourselves.

I saw the interaction Willie ...I had mixed feelings...because I could see both sides of the argument.

My personal understand re love...is that we do not have a choice. It is one of the only two commands to us.
Love is a choice we make "in Christ" not a feeling.
The "love feeling " we have, is in the emotions realm. God's love is just that...God's love.

I have two brothers...one is "loveable" and one is very easy to dislike.
It is easy to get on with the loveable one...and easy to dislike the other. Yet the depth of relationship that I have with the older brother is very shallow compared to my relationship with the harsh dislikable one.
If you understand what I am trying to say...I love them both...but I dislike the one. Yet I don't love him any the less.

This was a very hard lesson I finally learned back in the 80's because there was a man , a horrible, harsh, legalistic leader that I went toe to toe with many times ( on behalf of the flock) ...
I hated him, and I knew it. But I also knew that it would rot me from the inside out.
It took a couple of months of dealings ( which I wanted) until I allowed the Lord to finally break it/me...it was painfully beautiful ...but I got there.
Later talked to this man ...even stayed with him and his wife in the house overnight ...and talked it through and ended up laughing
He's dead now....I it a nasty, painful and blessed , freeing experience.
Love is a choice.
Love always wins.
God is LOVE.

Bless you...gotta run now....later ...
 
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lforrest

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I got a bit of the usual hateful "Well, then, you aren't a Christian." rhetoric that floats around this forum because I told someone I did not love them. I got to thinking about that, and ran across this:

The imprecatory parts of psalms are virtually always found in laments. Psalm 3, described in detail above, contains in verse 7 an imprecation that, like most others found in the Psalms, is brief and therefore not likely to be highly offensive. But some imprecations are rather lengthy and harsh (see parts of Ps. 12, 35, 58, 59, 69, 70, 83, 109, 137, 140). Consider, for example, Psalm 137:7–9:

7Remember, O Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us —
9he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalm 137 is a lament for the suffering endured by the Israelites in the Exile; their capital, Jerusalem, had been destroyed, and their land had been taken from them by the Babylonians, aided and encouraged by the Edomites (cf. the book of Obadiah). Heeding God’s Word, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay” (Deut. 32:35; cf. Romans 12:19) the composer of this lament calls for judgment according to the covenant curses (see chap. 10). Included in these curses is provision for the annihilation of the whole wicked society, including family members (Deut. 32:25; cf. Deut. 28: 53–57). Nothing in the Scripture teaches, of course that this temporal judgment should be seen as indicating anything about the eternal destiny of such family members.

What the psalmist has done in Psalm 137 is to tell God about the feelings of the suffering Israelites, using hyperbolic language of the same extreme sort found in the covenant curses themselves. The fact that the psalmist seems to be addressing the Babylonians directly is simply a function of the style of the psalm — he also addresses Jerusalem directly in verse 5. It is God who is the actual hearer of these angry words (v. 7), just as it should be God, and God alone, who hears our angry words. Understood in their context as part of the language of the laments, and used rightly to channel and control our potentially sinful anger, the imprecatory psalms can indeed help keep us from sin. To harbor or display anger against others is something we should all avoid (Matt. 5:22).

The imprecatory psalms do not contradict Jesus’ teaching to love our enemies. We tend wrongly to equate “love” with “having a warm feeling toward.” Jesus’ teaching, however, defines love actively. It is not so much how you feel about a certain person, but what you do for that person that shows love (Luke 10:25–37). The biblical command is to do love, not to feel love. In a related way, the imprecatory psalms help us, when we feel anger, not to do anger. We should honestly express our anger to God, no matter how bitterly and hatefully we feel it, and let God take care of justice against those who misuse us. The foe who continues to do evil in the face of our forbearance is in big trouble indeed (Romans 12:20). The proper function of these psalms, then, is to help us not to be “overcome by evil,” but to help free us from our anger, that we might “overcome evil with good” (Romans 12:21).

A final word: The term “hate” in the Psalms has been commonly misunderstood. When the psalmist says, “I have nothing but hatred for them” (Ps. 139:22), he is not expressing sin. Otherwise God’s declaration, “Esau I have hated” (Mal. 1:3; cf. Romans 9:13), would prove him a sinner. The Hebrew word translated “hate” does in some contexts mean “despise.” But it can also mean “be unwilling or unable to put up with” or “reject,” both standard definitions in the Hebrew lexicons for this word. Therefore, on this account as well there should be no presumption that the language of the imprecatory psalms violates the Scriptures’ teaching elsewhere, including Matthew 5:22.

If we say Lord remember what so and so has done, is that not unforgivness and a curse? If we forgive a sin against us is it still remembered by God?

The unwise option to seek justice from God is available to us. But should we fail to forgive, we will also face judgement.
 

Episkopos

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If we say Lord remember what so and so has done, is that not unforgivness and a curse? If we forgive a sin against us is it still remembered by God?

The unwise option to seek justice from God is available to us. But should we fail to forgive, we will also face judgement.


Amen. As we judge so we will be judged. As we forgive, so we will be forgiven.

How we ought then to be easy on others...but be hard on ourselves.
 
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Nancy

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I saw the interaction Willie ...I had mixed feelings...because I could see both sides of the argument.

My personal understand re love...is that we do not have a choice. It is one of the only two commands to us.
Love is a choice we make "in Christ" not a feeling.
The "love feeling " we have, is in the emotions realm. God's love is just that...God's love.

I have two brothers...one is "loveable" and one is very easy to dislike.
It is easy to get on with the loveable one...and easy to dislike the other. Yet the depth of relationship that I have with the older brother is very shallow compared to my relationship with the harsh dislikable one.
If you understand what I am trying to say...I love them both...but I dislike the one. Yet I don't love him any the less.

This was a very hard lesson I finally learned back in the 80's because there was a man , a horrible, harsh, legalistic leader that I went toe to toe with many times ( on behalf of the flock) ...
I hated him, and I knew it. But I also knew that it would rot me from the inside out.
It took a couple of months of dealings ( which I wanted) until I allowed the Lord to finally break it/me...it was painfully beautiful ...but I got there.
Later talked to this man ...even stayed with him and his wife in the house overnight ...and talked it through and ended up laughing
He's dead now....I it a nasty, painful and blessed , freeing experience.
Love is a choice.
Love always wins.
God is LOVE.

Bless you...gotta run now....later ...
Very well put @"ByGrace"
My mom had 7 of us. I can say that I love them all, but like? No. I would die for them, or even kill to protect them but. There are 2 out of 7 that I just plain do not like. It has been at the foot of Gods throne since I put it there and, one of the 2 is now coming to services with me (for at least 4 in a row!) and, I find that my "feelings" or outlook of her is being changed as I see her sincerity. For the last few years, all of my sibs are in my prayers of course, but this one in particular was heavy on my heart, because I knew I did not like her...I did not want to have even that in me. My prayers for her were that God would bring her to her knees...I knew she believed but did not LIVE that way. My prayers have been answered, big surprise, huh? ;)
Now, I shall concentrate specific prayer for my other sib that I find exhausting to be around or talk to. He is my oldest brother...and you would be hard pressed to find one who "professes" Christ yet, just about every word from his mouth say's otherwise :rolleyes: Now, these are people who are my family and, I do see them from time to time but...now let's talk about those online who we have NEVER met in person. I rely on the discernment God has graciously given me. I will have to say that since being on this Forum, since may of this year...I truly HAVE grown to love, care for and be concerned about-and would LOVE to meet in person one day, on this earth. Helen, for instance...I just want to give you a big hug. You have blessed me on here so many times-you have encouraged me, you even kind of "mother henned" for me at times and, it just makes my heart smile so wide as, it is just what my mom would have done ♥ @Willie T at first, I was not sure of you, but after being on here for these several months, I have come to seek out your posts and I also "feel" a fondness for you. And, yeah I would want to hug ya too! :) There are others as well on here that in my "human" capacity, have grown fond of. Forgive me if I forget any that I have grown close to on here (even if you all might not share the same) but, a shout out to: @Heart2Soul , @Rollo Tamasi , @GodsGrace , @bbyrd009 , @Mayflower , @Triumph1300 @amadeus @VictoryinJesus @Truth @justbyfaith nd I KNOW there are more. And, still more to GET to know yet. But, God's love should still shine through in cyberspace, we are real people behind these keyboards and still can get hurt deeply by others on here. We should always keep our words in check. God bless this site and all of your loved ones, we are a community that will never agree on everything until Christ comes back to separate the wheat from the tares. Until then, we are called to love one another ♥ JMHO!
 
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Willie T

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I was never speaking of family in my OP of two or three weeks ago. I was speaking of total strangers typing words on an internet connection. People I will never even see in my entire life. I honestly cannot say I love any of them.
 
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Nancy

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I think Christians should definitely hate. We need to hate behaviour...when it itself is unloving. So then this is just another way to love.
God hates sin and every false way...which we should also hate.

But we should never hate a person. Only God sees the final outcome....only He can judge. If we hate someone that means we are judging them in a final way...which we can't do.

When you add in that we also have done hateful things...that takes us 2 steps away from ever hating.

Maybe we should hate ourselves at times....but not others.

Agreed.....but, I do not agree that we should "hate" ourselves at times. There are those of us who do struggle with something called "self loathing" and, IMHO- that is from Satan. Hating sin? YES!!!!!!!! Always!
 
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Episkopos

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Agreed.....but, I do not agree that we should "hate" ourselves at times. There are those of us who do struggle with something called "self loathing" and, IMHO- that is from Satan. Hating sin? YES!!!!!!!! Always!


Not a permanent hate....but at times we need to be truly ashamed of ourselves. There is a kind of sorrow that leads to death...but there is a godly sorrow that leads to life.

So the hate just is there in order to balance out when we have thought the world of ourselves.

There is a problem when our self-love is never put into a proper balance.
 

Heart2Soul

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Very well put @"ByGrace"
My mom had 7 of us. I can say that I love them all, but like? No. I would die for them, or even kill to protect them but. There are 2 out of 7 that I just plain do not like. It has been at the foot of Gods throne since I put it there and, one of the 2 is now coming to services with me (for at least 4 in a row!) and, I find that my "feelings" or outlook of her is being changed as I see her sincerity. For the last few years, all of my sibs are in my prayers of course, but this one in particular was heavy on my heart, because I knew I did not like her...I did not want to have even that in me. My prayers for her were that God would bring her to her knees...I knew she believed but did not LIVE that way. My prayers have been answered, big surprise, huh? ;)
Now, I shall concentrate specific prayer for my other sib that I find exhausting to be around or talk to. He is my oldest brother...and you would be hard pressed to find one who "professes" Christ yet, just about every word from his mouth say's otherwise :rolleyes: Now, these are people who are my family and, I do see them from time to time but...now let's talk about those online who we have NEVER met in person. I rely on the discernment God has graciously given me. I will have to say that since being on this Forum, since may of this year...I truly HAVE grown to love, care for and be concerned about-and would LOVE to meet in person one day, on this earth. Helen, for instance...I just want to give you a big hug. You have blessed me on here so many times-you have encouraged me, you even kind of "mother henned" for me at times and, it just makes my heart smile so wide as, it is just what my mom would have done ♥ @Willie T at first, I was not sure of you, but after being on here for these several months, I have come to seek out your posts and I also "feel" a fondness for you. And, yeah I would want to hug ya too! :) There are others as well on here that in my "human" capacity, have grown fond of. Forgive me if I forget any that I have grown close to on here (even if you all might not share the same) but, a shout out to: @Heart2Soul , @Rollo Tamasi , @GodsGrace , @bbyrd009 , @Mayflower , @Triumph1300 @amadeus @VictoryinJesus @Truth @justbyfaith nd I KNOW there are more. And, still more to GET to know yet. But, God's love should still shine through in cyberspace, we are real people behind these keyboards and still can get hurt deeply by others on here. We should always keep our words in check. God bless this site and all of your loved ones, we are a community that will never agree on everything until Christ comes back to separate the wheat from the tares. Until then, we are called to love one another ♥ JMHO!
Thanks Nancy! The feelings are mutual!:)
 

Heart2Soul

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This article was really good about explaining the four kinds of love in the Bible...
Four Kinds of Love; Eros, Agape, Phileo & Storge
August 9, 2012 / ichykoo


The Greeks had four words to describe what we call love, Eros, (romantic love), Phileo, (enjoyment, fondness, friendship), Storge (family loyalty) and Agape (unconditional love with stick-ability). I like to think of them broadly as;

  1. Eros-A love felt particularly within the body (trembling excitement, elation, joy), coloured and underpinned by deep and beautiful procreative urges. C.S. Lewis distinguishes Eros from natural sexual urges and lusts, because Eros is a state of the heart and while it is intimately related to sex, sex can exist, and often does exist, without Eros enlivening it. It leads to children, family, joy and laughter. It is good and right, but it is usually not enough to sustain a relationship long term. Eros is an exulted and beautifully idealistic love, usually between a man and woman, but can also be “platonic” and extend to deeply intimate friendships. Socrates defined Eros as also working with the soul to recall knowledge of beauty, and in that capacity contributes to an understanding of spiritual truth; While Eros can simply be an earthy thing, when Spirit infused and elevated to it’s true position, it speaks deeply of universal mysteries, and is usually most keenly expressed within the most sacred of all relationships, that between husband and wife. Eros suggests that even sensually-based love aspires to the non-corporeal, spiritual plane of existence; that is, finding its truth, just like finding any truth, leads to transcendence. The elevated buzz of Erotic love is said to naturally fade within a year of its beginning. Perhaps it is too exhausting and all consuming? Perhaps we just get lazy? I don’t necessarily think it has to fade at all, and part of the purpose of this blog is to record my thoughts and experiences on Eros and how we can nurture and maintain this beautiful love in our lives.
  2. Phileo- If Eros is the love of the body, Phileo is the love of the soul. It is easy love and affection, it is bent towards our natural tastes and preferences. It embodies culture and beliefs. It’s about the friendship you feel towards people like you, with the same interests, social graces, and style. In the scriptures, this kind of friendship love is used to describe many relationships. God is said to have this kind of love for us and Jesus. Jesus felt this kind of love for his disciples, parents felt it about their children and children to their parents. It is not then a shallow love, but rich in emotion and feeling, like when your heart beams towards your child when they do something wonderful. However it is also described as a negative shallow love, natural and exclusive and conditional. Phileo is soul love, and it’s strength and value will depend on the elevation of the soul of the bearer.
  3. Agape-Is more of a parental, mature, sacrificial kind of love. The Thayer Lexicon describes agape beautifully when it says “to take pleasure in the thing, prize it above all other things, be unwilling to abandon it or do without it.” In a way it is as idealistic as Eros, in that it is a crazy love that will not let go. Agape loves, usually at cost to the bearer. Agape puts the beloved first and sacrifices pride, self interest and possessions for the sake of that beloved. This is the love that God has for us which inspired him to sacrifice His son and for His son to obey and sacrifice himself. It is the kind of love we are commanded to have for one another. It is a love of supreme greatness.
  4. Storge-This is the love of community and family. Often dutiful, sometimes unfeeling, but very strong none the less. It is a natural, carnal love, but powerful enough to be a real hindrance to spiritual growth, especially when family and culture are holding you down. It is a love that may pull you towards a lesser path.
Obviously, all of these loves work together, but only Agape is free from the error of our humanity. Agape is the glue that holds the other loves fast and gives us the wisdom and patience when the other loves fail. If we make it our goal to always be forgiving and merciful and believe in doing good to all men, and then do it, the other loves will stand, and your life will be full of the rich blessings of Phileo friendships and intimates of the sweetest and loveliest kind. You will stand up in the midst of your family and people and call them back to walk on pleasanter paths and on smoother highways. So, seek first the high love Agape; that sacrifices, forgives and believes; the love of Christ, freely given to those who ask and receive. Drink deeply of Christs love for you, for the fathers love for you, of this eternal and perfect love and all these other loves will be added unto you.


This second link is longer but very good as well and more in depth:
Explore 4 Different Types of Love in the Bible
 
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Enoch111

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I got a bit of the usual hateful "Well, then, you aren't a Christian." rhetoric that floats around this forum because I told someone I did not love them.
Since you are acquainted with others only remotely on the Internet, you probably meant "dislike".
 

Nancy

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I was never speaking of family in my OP of two or three weeks ago. I was speaking of total strangers typing words on an internet connection. People I will never even see in my entire life. I honestly cannot say I love any of them.
I suppose I was picking up where Helen was talking about her own brother. Can we show God's Love by being gracious, kind, and have respect for ones beliefs without agreeing with them with something? If they are in error as we see it...it can be debated till the cows come home. Correction on a forum is pretty much unproductive in that there is no "personal" interaction-not to mention hearts and minds closed to the truth as WE see it. I can say I love everybody on this site and in my immediate surroundings. Does that make it true? Nobody here can actually "witness" if I just talk the talk or walk it.
Love You!!! :D