Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!

[Amos Ministries]

Water baptism is an exciting decision that many followers of Christ make in their journey of faith. However, many believers think that once they have been baptized by water, they have reached the end goal. Water baptism is the first step towards reaching the ultimate goal of being baptized by fire, which is the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist says:

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[amadeus]

...
In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist says:

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit equal to the fire?

 

[Amos Ministries]

Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit equal to the fire?

Yes

 

[amadeus]

Yes

Then why are they listed in the verse you cited as if they were two things? "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Could you clarify this?

 

[Nancy]

Then why are they listed in the verse you cited as if they were two things? "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Could you clarify this?

Now, that is a very good question Amadeus.
There are some on here that believe that one is not saved UNLESS they speak in tongues. And, I believed that for a very long time...that I was not saved because I wasn't given that gift, no longer though!
As far as the baptism of fire or of the Spirit, to me it seems that the "baptism of the Spirit" is when we become indwelt by Him and after that moment we become bold for God. We lose the fear we once had of speaking up FOR Him and finally refuse to compromise, amen.
But then again...is there not only "one baptism"?

" One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Ephesians 4:5

So perhaps the "one baptism" has more than one purpose, or layer?..."water baptism" is the outward confession, before witnesses, of our death of the old man and being risen to new life! But then...if there is only "one baptism" ... (and yes, I do understand there are other types of baptisms in the OT :) ) ... is receiving the "fire" part something that comes later? Something that is supposed to be so simple that a child could understand. Simple faith, it is so refreshing and burden and doubt free! Aren't you so grateful that it is HE who is our judge?
New Life In Him!
nancy

 

[amadeus]

Now, that is a very good question Amadeus.
There are some on here that believe that one is not saved UNLESS they speak in tongues. And, I believed that for a very long time...that I was not saved because I wasn't given that gift, no longer though!
As far as the baptism of fire or of the Spirit, to me it seems that the "baptism of the Spirit" is when we become indwelt by Him and after that moment we become bold for God. We lose the fear we once had of speaking up FOR Him and finally refuse to compromise, amen.

When I first attended a Pentecostal church in 1976 I was taught that speaking in tongues was a necessary to salvation and necessary as evidence of having the Holy Ghost. Under my 3rd non-Catholic pastor I began to doubt this. It was a young Christian school teacher, rather than the pastor who reinforced those doubts in me. A couple of brothers joined together against him and when I overheard their discussion/argument his understanding of it sounded better to me than theirs.

But then again...is there not only "one baptism"?

" One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Ephesians 4:5

So perhaps the "one baptism" has more than one purpose, or layer?..."water baptism" is the outward confession, before witnesses, of our death of the old man and being risen to new life! But then...if there is only "one baptism" ... (and yes, I do understand there are other types of baptisms in the OT :) ) ... is receiving the "fire" part something that comes later? Something that is supposed to be so simple that a child could understand. Simple faith, it is so refreshing and burden and doubt free! Aren't you so grateful that it is HE who is our judge?
New Life In Him!
nancy

Perhaps only one, but as you say, purposes or layers multiple? See the conversation between me and to Nancy #2 [Perma] about 10 years ago:

Could there be three baptisms? Water, Holy Spirit and lastly fire, which is the crucifixion into Christ. Water = carnal Christian; Holy Spirit = maturing Christian; fire = Christian made Holy (be Holy as thou Father who art in heaven is holy).

Well, Paul speaks of "one baptism" in a verse I quoted already, but I previously compiled these baptisms:

1] Water (addressed in this thread)

2] Holy Ghost

3] Fire

4] Body

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
" I Cor 12:13

5] Death

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4

There may be others. It has been quite a while since I made such a search, but those are the only ones I had on my list.

You would be Nancy #3...LOL. Nancy #1 I am still in touch with in another state. Perma or Nancy #2 hasn't been heard from in years by anyone I know.

 

[Enoch111]

Then why are they listed in the verse you cited as if they were two things? "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Could you clarify this?

Good question since the two baptisms are mentioned separated. The baptism with fire -- contextually -- should be connected to the next verse: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The ones who are baptized with the Holy Ghost (believers) are not subject to the baptism with unquenchable fire. On the other hand, the trials, tribulations, persecutions, and martyrdoms of believers are also likened to a fiery trail: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Pet 4:12,13)

 

[amadeus]

Good question since the two baptisms are mentioned separated. The baptism with fire -- contextually -- should be connected to the next verse: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The ones who are baptized with the Holy Ghost (believers) are not subject to the baptism with unquenchable fire. On the other hand, the trials, tribulations, persecutions, and martyrdoms of believers are also likened to a fiery trail: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Pet 4:12,13)

Essentially I agree. I usually relate this to the type or shadow seen in three Hebrews in Daniel 3. Thrown into the fire, it burned off their bindings, the ropes with which they were tied. The soldiers of the king, Nebuchadnezzar, on the other hand, were killed when they came too close to that fire. That fire would clean them up and the Holy Ghost would lead cleaned up people into Truth.

 

[Nancy]

When I first attended a Pentecostal church in 1976 I was taught that speaking in tongues was a necessary to salvation and necessary as evidence of having the Holy Ghost. Under my 3rd non-Catholic pastor I began to doubt this. It was a young Christian school teacher, rather than the pastor who reinforced those doubts in me. A couple of brothers joined together against him and when I overheard their discussion/argument his understanding of it sounded better to me than theirs.


Perhaps only one, but as you say, purposes or layers multiple? See the conversation between me and to Nancy #2 [Perma] about 10 years ago:

Could there be three baptisms? Water, Holy Spirit and lastly fire, which is the crucifixion into Christ. Water = carnal Christian; Holy Spirit = maturing Christian; fire = Christian made Holy (be Holy as thou Father who art in heaven is holy).

Well, Paul speaks of "one baptism" in a verse I quoted already, but I previously compiled these baptisms:

1] Water (addressed in this thread)

2] Holy Ghost

3] Fire

4] Body

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
" I Cor 12:13

5] Death

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4

There may be others. It has been quite a while since I made such a search, but those are the only ones I had on my list.

You would be Nancy #3...LOL. Nancy #1 I am still in touch with in another state. Perma or Nancy #2 hasn't been heard from in years by anyone I know.

And here I thought I was Nancy #2, lol. So there were 3! I do hope Nancy 2 is doing well...kind of hurts when a bro or sister leaves with no word...makes me worry about them! For instance our @Rollo , and there have been others of course.

How very interesting that you wrote that and were having the same thoughts!
Four layers, how about that. Love to chew on these things :)

 

[amadeus]

And here I thought I was Nancy #2, lol. So there were 3! I do hope Nancy 2 is doing well...kind of hurts when a bro or sister leaves with no word...makes me worry about them! For instance our @Rollo , and there have been others of course.

How very interesting that you wrote that and were having the same thoughts!
Four layers, how about that. Love to chew on these things :)

I work harder at keeping in touch with some people now. Some who are I gone I only assume that they have died. I do not know. Others, such @Willie T on this forum we know have passed on. Some, like Nancy #2, I do not even have clue about.

On the baptisms, some people as you have seen on this forum get very heated in defense of their own position on it. I strive to take it in and if God impress on me to add something to the conversation, I do, but I really strive not to push. We cannot make someone else believe what we believe. We can help, maybe, if they want our help.

P.S. I sent you another e-mail with additional verses about "Not feeling God"...

 

[jaybird]

does anyone out there think the reason Jesus came was to teach us baptism . . .the end? im not sure if i have ever met anyone that thinks this. i grew up in a "baptist" church, does this confusion come from people hearing this denomination name not knowing what baptist teach?
i have seen many of these "baptism does not save" type threads, who exactly are these OPs talking to?

 

[Nancy]

I work harder at keeping in touch with some people now. Some who are I gone I only assume that they have died. I do not know. Others, such @Willie T on this forum we know have passed on. Some, like Nancy #2, I do not even have clue about.

On the baptisms, some people as you have seen on this forum get very heated in defense of their own position on it. I strive to take it in and if God impress on me to add something to the conversation, I do, but I really not to push. We cannot make someone else believe what we believe. We can help, maybe, if they want our help.

P.S. I sent you another e-mail with additional verses about "Not feeling God"...

Oh yeah, have seen a few heated discussions on baptism, as well as other things like, pet doctrines, lol.
"We cannot make someone else believe what we believe. " Sure cannot. And, don't want to. We can say why we believe in this or that, but not to push or argue that we are correct and they are incorrect.
I still from time to time look back on some of @Willie T 's posts. Do you think he is able to look down at us? Do you think that our dear departed loved ones who were saved can still pray for us?
Sorry, my mind drifts to so many thoughts, haha!
And I will surely check out my email tomorrow for the verses, thanks brother.
Gods love,
nancy

 

[amadeus]

Oh yeah, have seen a few heated discussions on baptism, as well as other things like, pet doctrines, lol.
"We cannot make someone else believe what we believe. " Sure cannot. And, don't want to. We can say why we believe in this or that, but not to push or argue that we are correct and they are incorrect.
I still from time to time look back on some of @Willie T 's posts. Do you think he is able to look down at us? Do you think that our dear departed loved ones who were saved can still pray for us?
Sorry, my mind drifts to so many thoughts, haha!
And I will surely check out my email tomorrow for the verses, thanks brother.
Gods love,
nancy

Willie T is one of those missed here. He is among the witnesses mentioned here watching as we continue our run?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb 12:1


One I also miss is still around but simply not allowed @bbyrd009

 

[Nancy]

Willie T is one of those missed here. He is among the witnesses mentioned here watching as we continue our run?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Heb 12:1


One I also miss is still around but simply not allowed @bbyrd009

Yeah, Bbyrd is another one. He brought a certain kind of flavor to the forums, lol. Pretty hard to follow as, he spoke his own language, haha. But, he was honest! I hope he's okay.

As far as the "cloud of witnesses"... it seems I've heard several refer to them as the O.T. saints. When first reading that years ago, it seemed as though it was speaking about all of the people "surrounding" us here, on earth, and to be a good witness for Christ by laying "aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"
So, to me it sounds like the "witnesses" could possibly be those who we should especially be Christ-like around, the unsaved friends, family, co-workers, neighbors...just some thoughts.

 

[historyb]

Baptism an repentance are the first steps in the journey of Salvation

 

[historyb]

Yeah, Bbyrd is another one. He brought a certain kind of flavor to the forums, lol. Pretty hard to follow as, he spoke his own language, haha. But, he was honest! I hope he's okay.

As far as the "cloud of witnesses"... it seems I've heard several refer to them as the O.T. saints. When first reading that years ago, it seemed as though it was speaking about all of the people "surrounding" us here, on earth, and to be a good witness for Christ by laying "aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"
So, to me it sounds like the "witnesses" could possibly be those who we should especially be Christ-like around, the unsaved friends, family, co-workers, neighbors...just some thoughts.

For many years until evangelicalism the verse was known to refer to those in Heaven, Liturgical Churches still understand this to be so.

 

[Nancy]

For many years until evangelicalism the verse was known to refer to those in Heaven, Liturgical Churches still understand this to be so.

Hello HB,
Yes, that is true yet, how are we, down here on earth "surrounded" by those in heaven? I mean, we're here and they are there. Also, why would we need to set aside every weight and sin that so besets us for those in heaven? To make them proud of us? lol...j/k. On the other hand, I CAN see it being those who actually DO surround us and watch us closely. The unsaved...we ourselves are said to "have a witness" and can ruin it by acting as the world does. That can blow your "witness" right out the water! JMO bro.

 

[historyb]

Hello HB,
Yes, that is true yet, how are we, down here on earth "surrounded" by those in heaven? I mean, we're here and they are there. Also, why would we need to set aside every weight and sin that so besets us for those in heaven? To make them proud of us? lol...j/k. On the other hand, I CAN see it being those who actually DO surround us and watch us closely. The unsaved...we ourselves are said to "have a witness" and can ruin it by acting as the world does. That can blow your "witness" right out the water! JMO bro.

Heaven and Earth are not separate things where things down here can't be viewed from there. We know there are Angels that go back and forth between Heaven and Earth, why is it so hard to believe that what was taught from the very beginning that the Saints are the great cloud of witnesses. The verse is not about the earth rather Heaven. We are not surrounded by sinners all the time but we are surrounded by Heaven all the time so we should set aside every weight and sin that besets us because even when we are alone we are never alone.

The problem with evangelicalism is that it forgets what the teaching of the Universal Church was and makes thing up that should nice and pretty like Hebrews is talking about sinners when it never was, this is one instance where evangelicalism wants to minimize Heaven, remember the saints offer up the prayers of people on earth as incense in Revelation which is the Great Cloud of Witnesses.

 

[amadeus]

Yeah, Bbyrd is another one. He brought a certain kind of flavor to the forums, lol. Pretty hard to follow as, he spoke his own language, haha. But, he was honest! I hope he's okay.

As far as the "cloud of witnesses"... it seems I've heard several refer to them as the O.T. saints. When first reading that years ago, it seemed as though it was speaking about all of the people "surrounding" us here, on earth, and to be a good witness for Christ by laying "aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"
So, to me it sounds like the "witnesses" could possibly be those who we should especially be Christ-like around, the unsaved friends, family, co-workers, neighbors...just some thoughts.

Perhaps all of those and more...What has God shown us? What has He yet to show us? What is His limit? What is ours?

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." I Cor 2:9-10

 

[Nancy]

Perhaps all of those and more...What has God shown us? What has He yet to show us? What is His limit? What is ours?

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." I Cor 2:9-10

Hey Bro Amadeus,

"What is His limit? "

None to be found. Whoa! just TRY, lol.

"What has He yet to show us? "

This is the very scripture that came to mind!

Cor. 2:9
""What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--"

Our limits? Huh...now that is a question...

1 Corinthians 10:13
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

I Cor 2:9-10
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

And, what human CAN know the depths of Him?