Dualism

[aspen]

As tempting as it is to point to our culture of consumerism and secularism as threats to Christianity, a greater evil has infiltrated our very theology and mindsets - dualism. You can see it everywhere within Christian culture - our books, theology, and internet - yet it has no place within the teachings of Christ. Unfortunately, dualism his been threatening Christian thought from the very beginning; indeed, it has proven difficult to root out.

Dualism is the idea that there are two equal forces fighting against each other in the universe - it was taught in a religion called Zoroastrianism, which was popular in Iran during the time of Christ. Dualistic thought springs from dualism - it was actually promoted by the Pharisees - there is only right and wrong, black and white, God or the devil, no work on the Sabbath - PERIOD. Christ's response was to offer a third option, which terrified everyone around Him, actually.

Is Satan a real force in the universe? Yes. Is he a threat to the risen Christ? Not even close. Is he a threat to a redeemed Christian? Nope. Instead, our sinful nature is our greatest threat to the peace of Christ in our hearts - but the good news is that Christ is with us and He wants to be in relationship with us. So next time you feel like you are being attacked by Satan - think about it - does your view of Satan include omnipresence? Can he attack everyone, personally, at the same time? Does it include omniscience? Does he know everything about us - all of us personally? How about omnipotent? Can he destroy us all? Lead us all to Hell? Seriously compete with God for our hearts and minds? If yes, you are definitely giving Satan far too much credit - as most of you know, all three of those aspects I listed are aspect of God alone; more importantly, you may also be falling into the age old trap of dualism.

Some of you might remember an old book that used to be sold as Christian - it is a work of fiction called "This Present Darkness" - it is the best example of dualism, I can think of at the moment.

 

[LeviWhalen]

I think you are on the right track with this. It is true, there is a darkness in the universe, both spiritual and physical. That darkness is not in any way as powerful as the light. The thing the devil tries to do is make us think he is just as powerful. But NOTHING can be as powerful as God, who created everything. A wonderful example of God's power is simply Love. God's power doesn't need to be expressed through shear or obliterative force, but through love, which the devil does not possess. When satan decided he wanted to be worshipped, he lost the Father's presence. It was his choice to sin. That's what Hell is. Our decision to turn away from the Love of God, to fuel our own darkness. God is simply giving us over to that side when we sin. There is a great article about the importance of Hell, here.

 

[jiggyfly]

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[font="verdana]Here's an excerpt from one of Sparks' books.[/font]
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[/font]Satan's power and satan's success are not in spite of God, but because of God. If you can draw that distinction, you will be greatly helped. Satan's power is not in spite of God, but because of God. God is allowing it. It is under the sovereignty of God. God is simply drawing it out, extending it, and when the cup of iniquity is full, then God will come in and show how overwelming He is.

T.Austin Sparks[/font]
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[aspen]

[font="verdana]
[font="verdana]Here's an excerpt from one of Sparks' books.[/font]
[font="verdana]
[/font]
[font="verdana]
[/font]Satan's power and satan's success are not in spite of God, but because of God. If you can draw that distinction, you will be greatly helped. Satan's power is not in spite of God, but because of God. God is allowing it. It is under the sovereignty of God. God is simply drawing it out, extending it, and when the cup of iniquity is full, then God will come in and show how overwelming He is.

T.Austin Sparks[/font]
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I've often said that reality is stretched in order for us to see how God forgave us in the Garden.....I like the quote

 

[LeviWhalen]

I really urge everyone to read that article I linked do. It talks about how when we sin, it is a choice to turn away from God. It's not that God is punishing us for sinning, its just sin can't touch Him, so we leave from His Presence.

 

[Doppleganger]

Food for Thought

In philosophy of mind, dualism is a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical.

Ideas on mind/body dualism originate at least as far back as Zarathushtra. Plato and Aristotle deal with speculations as to the existence of an incorporeal soul that bore the faculties of intelligence and wisdom. They maintained, for different reasons, that people's "intelligence" (a faculty of the mind or soul) could not be identified with, or explained in terms of, their physical body.

A generally well-known version of dualism is attributed to René Descartes (1641), which holds that the mind is a nonphysical substance.

Descartes actually used this agruement as a proof for God.

http://en.wikipedia....irst_Philosophy

 

[aspen]

Food for Thought

In philosophy of mind, dualism is a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical.

Ideas on mind/body dualism originate at least as far back as Zarathushtra. Plato and Aristotle deal with speculations as to the existence of an incorporeal soul that bore the faculties of intelligence and wisdom. They maintained, for different reasons, that people's "intelligence" (a faculty of the mind or soul) could not be identified with, or explained in terms of, their physical body.

A generally well-known version of dualism is attributed to René Descartes (1641), which holds that the mind is a nonphysical substance.

Descartes actually used this agruement as a proof for God.

http://en.wikipedia....irst_Philosophy

This post is so interesting to me! Wow. I have heard that the concept of the Christian concept of the soul is borrowed from Plato, however, after looking into the topic, I discovered that the Christian concept of the soul encompasses mind, body and spirit, rather than simply spirit. I have read Plato's Republic, but it was 20 years ago. I am not a big fan of Descartes - but I thought the link provided good information.

 

[jiggyfly]

I really urge everyone to read that article I linked do. It talks about how when we sin, it is a choice to turn away from God. It's not that God is punishing us for sinning, its just sin can't touch Him, so we leave from His Presence.

So don't you believe that Christ's death took care of sin?

Look at what Paul said to the believers in Colossi.
For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross. This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. Col. 1:19-22


And again here to the believers in Rome.

Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:24-26

If you believe when we sin we leave God's presence then you must not believe that God is omnipresent.

 

[aspen]

If you believe when we sin we leave God's presence then you must not believe that God is omnipresent.

I do not mean to get this off track, but I've always wondered about this - God is omnipresent, yet He is not present in Hell

 

[jiggyfly]

If you believe when we sin we leave God's presence then you must not believe that God is omnipresent.

I do not mean to get this off track, but I've always wondered about this - God is omnipresent, yet He is not present in Hell

Yes that concept does seem rather contradictory to the scriptures.
If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. Psalm 139:8
and...
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can't, and life can't. The angels can't, and the demons can't. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can't keep God's love away. Romans 8:38
and again ...
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Revelation 14:10

 

[Duckybill]

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;

 

[jiggyfly]

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;

Can you elaborate a little and show the connection with this verse and the OP?

 

[Duckybill]

Can you elaborate a little and show the connection with this verse and the OP?

"Is Satan a real force in the universe?" was the comment I was referring to. Satan has the power to steal the Gospel from humans' hearts if they get too careless with how they live.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NKJV)
[sup]3 [/sup]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [sup]4 [/sup]whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

 

[jiggyfly]

"Is Satan a real force in the universe?" was the comment I was referring to. Satan has the power to steal the Gospel from humans' hearts if they get too careless with how they live.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (NKJV)
[sup]3 [/sup]But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, [sup]4 [/sup]whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Do you believe that a person's salvation is dependent on personal works? Pardon all the questions but I am trying to find out how you believe.

 

[Duckybill]

Do you believe that a person's salvation is dependent on personal works? Pardon all the questions but I am trying to find out how you believe.

No, but genuine Christian faith produces works.

 

[jiggyfly]

No, but genuine Christian faith produces works.

Who's works? Have you ever resisted God trying to work in you? If so, did you become unsaved?

Peter denied Christ, did Christ kick Him to the curb? What about Thomas, he doubted, what did Christ do about that?

 

[tomwebster]

Who's works? Have you ever resisted God trying to work in you? If so, did you become unsaved?

Peter denied Christ, did Christ kick Him to the curb? What about Thomas, he doubted, what did Christ do about that?

Did they repent? Isn't that why Christ forgave them. Did they accept Christ's forgiveness?

 

[jiggyfly]

Did they repent? Isn't that why Christ forgave them. Did they accept Christ's forgiveness?

Ahhh so we are only to forgive those who ask us to forgive them ehh, I would be interested in the scriptures that support your opinion.

 

[tomwebster]

Ahhh so we are only to forgive those who ask us to forgive them ehh, I would be interested in the scriptures that support your opinion.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

jig,
What is the reason for repentance?

 

[HammerStone]

Note that God is far more powerful than Satan; that is certainly where the concept of dualism fails. There is no equity. At best, Satan is a 2nd Lieutenant rebelling against his best his general and even that analogy is giving him far too much credit.

However, I caution throwing out the baby with the bath water. Removing black and white for shades of grey won't work either. It's not always black and white, but manifestations of evil do emerge and quite clearly sometimes. Christianity attempted this graying of life and it's why many churches have hemorrhaged over the past few centuries. Satan is still many, many times more powerful than any of us alone. He's intelligent, rather charming, and quite the scholar of God's written Word. We do not have to worry, though, as long as we understand Luke 10:19. Father God will put him in his place at any time we ask.

Probably gets watered down in the newer translations, but there is good and evil:

[bible=Matthew 7:18-20 NASB]
So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.[/bible]

The key to understanding is that there is God and then there is everyone else. While dualism is dangerous - teaching that Satan is as powerful as God - running the opposite way is equally as lost. Wide is the path to destruction and fraught with dangers on all sides.