Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[charity]

Not really an invitation to slam Mr. Fudge. I just wondered how many proponents of annihilationism we have on board.

Does hell burn for eternity or just until the wicked suffer corresponding to the exact amount of evil caused by their words, thoughts, and deeds?

Hello @BarnyFife,

Hell, is the middle English word used for 'The place of the dead', for it's root meaning is, 'to hide away'. So, be it the grave, or the fire of destruction, at the judgment of the end time: both can be classified as 'The place of the dead'. There is no such thing as eternal conscious punishment, for mankind, in Scripture.

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Episkopos]

What exactly does this have to do with eternal Hell? It is most unwise to take things out of context.

Our God is a consuming fire. He brings purity and destroys what is offensive to holiness and spiritual life by consuming what is nonredeemable with fire. As such God is improving the world...albeit at the expense of they who will not repent or are too offensive or hostile to the truth.

So when we are looking into how God does things and what He does as His chosen ways...then precedent is important. It is to know His ways.

To NOT do that is to definitely take things out of context. God does things by design. We are meant to learn from the experience of others.

Do you see that?

 

[Episkopos]

Hello @BarnyFife,

Hell, is the middle English word used for 'The place of the dead', for it's root meaning is, 'to hide away'. So, be it the grave, or the fire of destruction, at the judgment of the end time: both can be classified as 'The place of the dead'. There is no such thing as eternal conscious punishment, for mankind, in Scripture.

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

There is an eternal conscious punishment (albeit not physical torment) in the bible. Outer darkness...being a castaway...banished from the face of God. And this is an eternal destiny. Not like heaven and hell...which are places but not destinies.

So there is so much confusion in modern religious thinking between places now at present...and eternal destinies. This oversimplification has filled the churches with people...but has done nothing to bring people to any kind of actual knowledge or experience with God. And is NOT preparing people for any kind of good end.

But did I mention that it's popular?

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm interested in avoiding ideas that are not good. And you?

Ah, the straw man rears its ugly head. Now, you may say 'twas I who made the man of straw, but coupled with my remark about the status quo... the straw man becomes hyperbole. Just relax, it'll come out all right. Even if millions believe you can scare a man into loving God.

How's this for a deterrent to sin?

The love of God as an incentive to love Him back.

 

[marks]

There is an eternal conscious punishment (albeit not physical torment) in the bible. Outer darkness...being a castaway...banished from the face of God. And this is an eternal destiny. Not like heaven and hell...which are places but not destinies.

And you count outer darkness, wailing and gnashing teeth, this is for the born again child of God who did not attain to higher, that's correct?

So you have two 'classes' of condemned, the unrepentant sinners who are destroyed in the lake of fire, and the "children of God who didn't do better" who will suffer forever?

 

[Episkopos]

And you count outer darkness, wailing and gnashing teeth, this is for the born again child of God who did not attain to higher, that's correct?

So you have two 'classes' of condemned, the unrepentant sinners who are destroyed in the lake of fire, and the "children of God who didn't do better" who will suffer forever?

Yes. There are 2 ways to succeed and 2 ways to fail. One is to fail in the world and the other is to fail God.

There are 2 resurrections with 2 judgments.

They who are believers are in the household of God. But judgment begins at the house of God. So then Christians will be judged along with the Jews. The Bema seat judgment is a personal judgment whereas the GWT judgment is not personal but a group judgment from all nations (whoever is not written in the book of life is destroyed by the second death in the lake of fire).

So Christians ought to fear. The smug are very much at a disadvantage since these tend towards high-minded presumptions. So the surprise at judgment will be very great. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (anger).

And no matter how often these are warned they will not listen.

 

[marks]

So Christians ought to fear. The smug are very much at a disadvantage since these tend towards high-minded presumptions. So the surprise at judgment will be very great. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (anger).

And no matter how often these are warned they will not listen.

Do you think that a Christian requires being afraid to obey God?

The "high-minded presumptions", by this I expect that you mean the idea that our rebirth results in an intimacy with God that will never end, is that right?

They who are believers are in the household of God. But judgment begins at the house of God. So then Christians will be judged along with the Jews. The Bema seat judgment is a personal judgment whereas the GWT judgment is not personal but a group judgment from all nations (whoever is not written in the book of life is destroyed by the second death in the lake of fire).

When you say, Christians will be judged along with the Jews, do you mean unconverted, that is, non-Christian Jews?

Where specifically do you see in the Bible that those cast into outer darkness are God's children?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And no matter how often these are warned they will not listen.

And that warning being that even though you've received life in Christ, yet still all may be lost, and more, if you aren't good enough, is that right?

I feel sad for anyone who does not know the love of God, and does not know His life, and so does not know eternal life in Christ. While there are those who lie about knowing God, I think that those who truly do know Him, it's unmistakable. When you meet Him, that is. That's just me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Ah, the straw man rears its ugly head.

They do that a lot around here!

 

[Episkopos]

And that warning being that even though you've received life in Christ, yet still all may be lost, and more, if you aren't good enough, is that right?

I feel sad for anyone who does not know the love of God, and does not know His life, and so does not know eternal life in Christ. While there are those who lie about knowing God, I think that those who truly do know Him, it's unmistakable. When you meet Him, that is. That's just me.

Much love!

Without holiness none shall see the Lord. And I could cite you..and I have...over and over ...all the warnings...but you ignore these. Many are like you...who read what they want to read and believe what they want based on an emotional human logic that is set on self-preservation.

A humble man would understand that God will choose whom He will and save whom He wills....without all the emotional morality and self-interest.

So then you will always make this about self...ego and pride. And you steer yourself away from truth and steer others away as well.

So don't ask me over and over for bible verses you know you are going to ignore.

it's dishonest.

Now you will complain that your sensitive nature is being attacked.

But the truth requires that you sacrifice your emotional attachment to yourself. You can play the victim or... humble yourself and learn.

 

[Enoch111]

Our God is a consuming fire. He brings purity and destroys what is offensive to holiness and spiritual life by consuming what is nonredeemable with fire.

That has ZERO to do with the existence of eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).

So that you understand what Hell means here are the Scriptures:

HELL CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS
τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων, Πορεύεσθε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ, οἱ κατηραμένοι, εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον, τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

HELL IS ALSO FOR THE UNREGENERATE AND UNSAVED
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

REVELATION 14:THE TORMENTS OF HELL ARE ETERNAL
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Episkopos]

That has ZERO to do with the existence of eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).

So that you understand what Hell means here are the Scriptures:

HELL CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS
τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων, Πορεύεσθε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ, οἱ κατηραμένοι, εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον, τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

HELL IS ALSO FOR THE UNREGENERATE AND UNSAVED
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

REVELATION 14:THE TORMENTS OF HELL ARE ETERNAL
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You are just being religious and following your indoctrination here. We know that the fire is eternal and that torment is reserved for the devil and the beast.

Hello?

But you are ignoring all the other verses that show that the lake of fire destroys the wicked.

So open your mind up and stop being so grumpy and close minded. Read more carefully.

 

[marks]

A humble man would understand that God will choose whom He will and save whom He wills....

Just so.

Without holiness none shall see the Lord.

Again, just so.

And I could cite you..and I have...over and over ...all the warnings...but you ignore these. Many are like you...who read what they want to read and believe what they want based on an emotional human logic that is set on self-preservation.

Your opinions, but not based in fact, only on your perceptions, as colored by your temperment, which is revealed in your posts.

You want to paint me as emotionally set on self-preservation, but if you believe this, you have only deceived yourself, and then go on to misrepresent me to others. What would you call that? If you don't believe it yourself, and say it anyway . . .

You warn that those whom God gave Himself in a human death to purchase to Himself, that He will send this into eternal shame and misery if they don't measure up, and you don't see the contradiction in this statement!

So don't ask me over and over for bible verses you know you are going to ignore.

I ask you already knowing that you will not reply, cannot reply, that's why I ask. I know you won't. My hope is that others will see what is true, that these things are not in the Bible, and that is why you will not post Scriptures to teach these. They don't.

Now you will complain that your sensitive nature is being attacked.

This is just you launching into your ad hominems again. Those without valid arguments always reach for the fallacies, I think! At least that's what I've seen over the years. Call someone on it, and that's the refrain. OH, You are SO SENSITIVE!

Remember . . . your words are not mine . . . so where is the dishonesty really?

But the truth requires that you sacrifice your emotional attachment to yourself. You can play the victim or... humble yourself and learn.

This would be that straw man that keeps floating around.

I say, Where is this in the Bible, and you say, OH, stop playing the victim!

Some discussion, huh! Not much a picture of holiness to make me sound like something I'm not.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The second death (annihilation) is one possibility as an outcome or destiny of men.

We are mortals...not immortals.

It’s not the body of man, which is temporal, that will burn forever, but the soul, which is immortal. @Enoch111 quoted several verses showing that the Lake of Fire is eternal.

 

[Episkopos]

It’s not the body of man, which is temporal, that will burn forever, but the soul, which is immortal. @Enoch111 quoted several verses showing that the Lake of Fire is eternal.

The soul is not immortal. Why do you think an eternal fire means an eternal soul?

Where do you get that?

If the soul is already immortal then no one needs to be saved.

How can we pass from death to life if we never die?

Think about his and study some more.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The soul is not immortal. Why do you think an eternal fire means an eternal soul?

Where do you get that?

If the soul is already immortal then no one needs to be saved.

How can we pass from death to life if we never die?

Think about his and study some more.

Now, now, don’t be condescending. How can a person burn in the fire forever unless the soul is eternal? Did you read the scriptures that Enoch posted?

 

[Episkopos]

Now, now, don’t be condescending. How can a person burn in the fire forever unless the soul is eternal? Did you read the scriptures that Enoch posted?

I read a bad interpretation of certain verses. It never says that a person will suffer forever. The Hebrew says people will look on their "corpses". Corpses are dead bodies. Corpses do not suffer eternally. The second death is NOT the second torment.

I'm not even going to waste my time with showing you all the verses that contradict your position. I find that truth has no effect on indoctrination.

So you are believing emotionally what you WANT to believe. That is the normal way of it in todays time.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I read a bad interpretation of certain verses. It never says that a person will suffer forever. The Hebrew says people will look on their "corpses". Corpses are dead bodies. Corpses do not suffer eternally. The second death is NOT the second torment.

I'm not even going to waste my time with showing you all the verses that contradict your position. I find that truth has no effect on indoctrination.

So you are believing emotionally what you WANT to believe. That is the normal way of it in todays time.

It's okay if you don't quote all of the verses that seem to refute what I'm saying. I've already read all of the verses (and studied them, hehe). I've seen this topic debated ad nauseam. I would be very careful about taking the position you're taking because of scriptures like these:

Matt 25:45-46--“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1 Thes 2:7-10--This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.

Won't "eternal punishment" amount to eternal suffering??
.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Not really an invitation to slam Mr. Fudge. I just wondered how many proponents of annihilationism we have on board.

Does hell burn for eternity or just until the wicked suffer corresponding to the exact amount of evil caused by their words, thoughts, and deeds?

“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

 

[justbyfaith]

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Understanding these verses together, I find that there is a punishment involving conscious torment in fire, that is everlasting in nature.