Elijah and JTB

[Nancy]

There are 2 possibile explanations:

1. It could be that the "Elijah" verse has two different layers of meaning and that there will also be an Elijah before the second coming. (Elijah vs Jezebel in OT could also match that "Babylon"/"Jezebel" is still around at time of 2 Witnesses?) This would make 3 Elijahs (OT one, JTB, 1 of the two witnesses.)

Or 2. It could be that Elijah is just figurative as a similar type of person (or "spirit of Elijah"). John was right that he was not the previous Elijah of bc times. John is supposed to have worn John's mantle or girdle or something. Possibly this is abit like names like Caesar and Pharaoh, and the person bearing the name/title or "spirit" or mantle is identified as like being One with (or like a reincarnation of) the original first bearer of the name? Elijah prophesied to come before messiah is like John being forerunner of Jesus. (And Malachi is last book of OT just before gospels.)
Elijah before Elisha is also a type of John before Yeshua/Jesus (Elisha & Yeshua similar meanings), as is Moses before Joshua.
Though Elijah and Moses also have parallels with Jesus. Elijah also means El "god" = Yah, which might better match the son of god than John?
This could mean that there might only be 2 not 3 Elijahs (the OT one, & JTB, but not one in end times).

Either way John both was "Elijah" (2nd) but wasn't Elijah (1st) or Elijah/"Elijah" (3rd?) They are both true, there is no contradiction.

* Moses and Elijah are often thought to be the 2 Witnesses because the first's body was not found, and the 2nd didn't die but was raptured; and the types of signs the 2 witnesses perform are like those Moses and Elijah uniquely did; and the two appeared in the transfiguration; and Elijah is prophesied to come before the messiah. Plus possibly Moses & Elijah might be type of Jew/Law and Christian/Jesus, or of Law and Prophets (respectively)?

Good explanation, thank you.
I tend toward your number 2. Especially because of the transfiguration. Not that God cannot raise up these OT saints if they died but, these two fit the profile more I think.
Types also come into play, agree with that also. Not that it matters, just wondered what everyone else thought of the OP.
Thanks and God bless.

 

[Nancy]

If we can't identify what the witness is how will we ever identify the witnesses?

Only if we are living and can "witness" the witnesses via TV, mobile phones and such...and then there is "oh, they are not real live "men" just, the scriptures. Not sure I have that right.

Going on the fact that they will speak of God continually, beseeching repentance. Will destroy with fire anyone who will lay a hand on them. they will be killed and their "bodies" will be in the streets of Jerusalem for all to see and laugh at...
They will raise to life after 3 days and God will bring them back up to Him.

Their profile is clear in the scriptures so, don't know how a Christian could miss it...but then, don't know how the Jews in Jesus time missed it either!

 

[marks]

Why would Jesus call JTB "Elijah when JTB said to the Pharisees when questioned that he was NOT Elijah? Perhaps he didn't know his true identity at that time?

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction." (Mal 4:5-6)

Does JTB maybe have a duel purpose, just different times? Does anyone here think that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Jerusalem?

Thoughts?

I'm going to summarize my thoughts on this, if you want the details let me know.

Had the Jews received Jesus, they would have received John the Baptist, and John the Baptist - in the spirit and power of Elijah - would have been the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy. He was not Elijah, that is, he was not the man returned to Israel, however, he would have fulfilled the prophecy, being a "role" of preparing people for God.

They killed JtB, and when Jesus heard about it, He went off alone for a bit. A harbinger of His own looming execution.

Jesus said Elijah will come, and that he will be successful in his ministry. So whether this means Elijah the man himself returned to Israel, or another who is born "in the spirit and power of Elijah", the prophecy remains to be fulfilled.

When Elijah comes, I think he will be with the Jews who have fled to the wilderness, as the bride prepares herself for her Groom's return. He will be the best man, getting the bride - the Jews - ready, and when they have said, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of YHWH, she will be ready, He will return.

The two witnesses will testify and prophesy, and then be killed, and ascend to heaven. This doesn't seem to me to fit with Elijah's ministry.

Much love!

 

[marks]

that must be like arriving at your destination taking any road

God's already mapped it all out.

Much love!

 

[lforrest]

I think John the Baptist was given the spirit and power of Elijah. But John didn't know it was given to him. Jesus knew, and since he spoke of spiritual things identified John the Baptist as Elijah.

 

[Nancy]

I'm going to summarize my thoughts on this, if you want the details let me know.

Had the Jews received Jesus, they would have received John the Baptist, and John the Baptist - in the spirit and power of Elijah - would have been the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy. He was not Elijah, that is, he was not the man returned to Israel, however, he would have fulfilled the prophecy, being a "role" of preparing people for God.

They killed JtB, and when Jesus heard about it, He went off alone for a bit. A harbinger of His own looming execution.

Jesus said Elijah will come, and that he will be successful in his ministry. So whether this means Elijah the man himself returned to Israel, or another who is born "in the spirit and power of Elijah", the prophecy remains to be fulfilled.

When Elijah comes, I think he will be with the Jews who have fled to the wilderness, as the bride prepares herself for her Groom's return. He will be the best man, getting the bride - the Jews - ready, and when they have said, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of YHWH, she will be ready, He will return.

The two witnesses will testify and prophesy, and then be killed, and ascend to heaven. This doesn't seem to me to fit with Elijah's ministry.

Much love!

Good thoughts Marks, and I can definitely agree JTB will be of the same spirit and power as Elijah. Will be mind-blowing to be alive to see this all come to pass.

 

[quietthinker]

Only if we are living and can "witness" the witnesses via TV, mobile phones and such...and then there is "oh, they are not real live "men" just, the scriptures. Not sure I have that right.

Going on the fact that they will speak of God continually, beseeching repentance. Will destroy with fire anyone who will lay a hand on them. they will be killed and their "bodies" will be in the streets of Jerusalem for all to see and laugh at...
They will raise to life after 3 days and God will bring them back up to Him.

Their profile is clear in the scriptures so, don't know how a Christian could miss it...but then, don't know how the Jews in Jesus time missed it either!

These things are metaphor Nancy. Jesus is the true witness, Rev.1:5, 3:14 ...why? because all who witnessed before him did so from a position of shadow.

Consider John the Baptist ratcheting the people around in how they thought of God. He said repent and be baptised for forgiveness.....a radical shift from how the priests of the day understood forgiveness; they said one needs to go to the temple with a lamb and kill it before God would forgive. John never sent anybody to the temple.

Jesus comes along and ups the ante; he just forgives with a word......no lamb required, no baptism, no confession, no repentance......like in the story of the paralytic let down through the roof. Jesus forgives because he loves......that's what love does.

Elijah just like John was a forerunner; of which John was a type.......in other words he prepared the people for a greater/better understanding.
Jesus is the ultimate witness...(faithful witness) 'listen to him' said the voice from the cloud. Jesus is not on an equal footing with Elijah or John.....he is far superior......subsequently the direction, 'listen to him'

It begs the question, what is Jesus a witness to that Elijah and John were only shadows of? Understanding this gives clues to the identities of the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation.

 

[Nancy]

These things are metaphor Nancy. Jesus is the true witness, Rev.1:5, 3:14 ...why? because all who witnessed before him did so from a position of shadow.

Consider John the Baptist ratcheting the people around in how they thought of God. He said repent and be baptised for forgiveness.....a radical shift from how the priests of the day understood forgiveness; they said one needs to go to the temple with a lamb and kill it before God would forgive. John never sent anybody to the temple.

Jesus comes along and ups the ante; he just forgives with a word......no lamb required, no baptism, no confession, no repentance......like in the story of the paralytic let down through the roof. Jesus forgives because he loves......that's what love does.

Elijah just like John was a forerunner; of which John was a type.......in other words he prepared the people for a greater/better understanding.
Jesus is the ultimate witness...(faithful witness) 'listen to him' said the voice from the cloud. Jesus is not on an equal footing with Elijah or John.....he is far superior......subsequently the direction, 'listen to him'

It begs the question, what is Jesus a witness to that Elijah and John were only shadows of? Understanding this gives clues to the identities of the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation.

I don't see that" "These things are metaphor..." And yes, of course Jesus is the "true witness".
The way the "two witnesses' is written about sure sound like "real men" to me, weather types, shadow's, forerunners..."
Jesus is The Name above ALL Names, of course He is higher than any human!
And to answer your question as to what are they "witnesses of"...I would take a gander here and say...The Gospel!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

that must be like arriving at your destination taking any road

No, it only looks like you're being taken down any road. God is directing and controlling everything and when his prophetic road is traveled and things are fulfilled we'll see the fulfilment and go, 'Ah, so that's what it was all about'. That's how prophecy works.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't see that" "These things are metaphor..." And yes, of course Jesus is the "true witness".
The way the "two witnesses' is written about sure sound like "real men" to me, weather types, shadow's, forerunners..."
Jesus is The Name above ALL Names, of course He is higher than any human!
And to answer your question as to what are they "witnesses of"...I would take a gander here and say...The Gospel!

The Jesuit futurist hermeneutic has captured the imagination of most of Christendom and they are not aware of it. The interpretation of prophecy through this lens misses and obscures the whole point of the prophecy.

 

[GTW27]

The anointing of prophets are all the same, as The Lord is the same. John could say to Elijah, "I believe that, with all of your heart."

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

The original Elijah is dead, so he is not either one of the 2 witnesses. The "Elijah" Malachi primarily refers to is a modern day Elijah who was supposed to fulfill his duty before the Laodicean era, not during the Tribulation. Mal. 4:5-6 should not be read as the original Elijah warning anyone during the Tribulation for 2 important reasons:

1. Amos explicitly says that there will be a famine of the word during the Tribulation.

2. Matt. 17:10-11 shows Jesus saying that the Elijah mentioned in Mal. 4:5-6 would restore knowledge of true Christianity.

While Mal. 4:5-6 says this end-time Elijah would show up before the Day of the Lord, it doesn't say that it is supposed to happen during the Tribulation. It would be impossible for the final Elijah to turn anyone's hearts to their father or children when there is a famine of the word.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The original Elijah is dead, so he is not either one of the 2 witnesses

He didn't die, he was taken up in a whirlwind...
2 Kings 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁹ And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
¹⁰ And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
¹¹ And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[Heart2Soul]

1. Amos explicitly says that there will be a famine of the word during the Tribulation.

I can't seem to find the connection to the tribulation in Revelation in Amos. Can you give a scripture?