Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasy

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iakov

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H. Richard said:
Do you know what a "metaphor" is? How about an "allegory?
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus' words were spoken as metaphor or allegory. That excuse for not believing what Jesus taught is pretty lame.

At JN 6:35 Jesus declared that He was "the bread of life" and then clarified His statement.

THE BREAD OF LIFE – the metaphor (It is a metaphor [a simile without the words "like" or "as"] because, as it is obvious, Jesus was not a loaf of bread.)
35 (1) "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

48 (2) I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died.

50 (3) But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
51 (4) I am the living bread that came down from heaven.
(5) If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

THE BREAD IS MY FLESH – the metaphor explained

(6) This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth,
(7) unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 (8) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 (9) For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 (10) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. (See John 15.)
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so
(11) the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

THE BREAD OF LIFE – the lesson summarized
58 (12) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but
(13) he who feeds on this bread will live forever."


Paul’s words concerning the Eucharist confirm that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of the Lord rather than a symbol or a prop in a ritual of recalling.

1CO 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

1CO 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

If you have some personal need to make Jesus' and Paul's words into some kind of a fairy tale so you don't have to believe them, well, that's your issue. You can explain your refusal to believe the Jesus' words when you meet Him face to face.
 

justaname

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iakov said:
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus' words were spoken as metaphor or allegory. That excuse for not believing what Jesus taught is pretty lame.

At JN 6:35 Jesus declared that He was "the bread of life" and then clarified His statement.

THE BREAD OF LIFE – the metaphor (It is a metaphor [a simile without the words "like" or "as"] because, as it is obvious, Jesus was not a loaf of bread.)
35 (1) "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

48 (2) I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died.

50 (3) But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
51 (4) I am the living bread that came down from heaven.
(5) If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

THE BREAD IS MY FLESH – the metaphor explained

(6) This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth,
(7) unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 (8) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 (9) For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 (10) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. (See John 15.)
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so
(11) the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

THE BREAD OF LIFE – the lesson summarized
58 (12) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but
(13) he who feeds on this bread will live forever."


Paul’s words concerning the Eucharist confirm that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of the Lord rather than a symbol or a prop in a ritual of recalling.

1CO 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

1CO 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

If you have some personal need to make Jesus' and Paul's words into some kind of a fairy tale so you don't have to believe them, well, that's your issue. You can explain your refusal to believe the Jesus' words when you meet Him face to face.
iakov,

John 6:63 because I feel it is critical in understanding the section and it is within the context of the bread of life section.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Also I would direct you back to verse 6:35.
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

I have emboldened the portion I want to bring into focus. Notice Jesus is connecting coming with hunger and belief with thirst. I think this is pertinent in understanding the teaching given by the Messiah. Jesus mirrors this language in verses 6:53-56 yet moves to eating and drinking. You can easily see how Jesus has given His explanation earlier in verse 35. Coming to Him would equal eating His flesh. Believing Him would equal drinking His blood.

Notice you yourself admit Jesus is not a loaf of bread so by default it is a metaphor He is using. If He is using a metaphor to explain He is the bread of life, what leads you to believe He is being literal in consuming His flesh and drinking His blood?

Please understand our views on the Eucharist are most likely much more similar than you might imagine given my description on this section of scripture, yet I am bringing fourth what the Scripture presents within its given context. I am not asking you to reconsider your view on the blessed sacrament, rather take a closer look to what the Scripture presents in Saint John's Gospel.

In the Love of Christ!
justaname
 

justaname

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H. Richard said:
This writing is offered as a study of Apostasy and is to be considered the view of the writer, me. If it offends any I am sorry, but just as I give others the right to believe and write as they see it I claim that same right for myself. This writing is not a claim, by me, that I know everything. It is my effort to try and understand the truth.
-
Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasy
-
This is the background of Christ's instruction to Gentiles (through Paul) during the dispensation of grace (that's us):

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me [Paul], as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon..
.
1 Cor 4:14-16 For I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [the Kingdom Gospel? No, the Grace Gospel? Yes.] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers [of whom? All the apostles? No...] of me. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

1 Cor 11:1-2 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as [who? Peter? John? James? No...] I delivered them to you.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given [to who? All the apostles equally? No...] to me for you.

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and observe them which walk according to the pattern you have in us.

Phil 4:9 Those things which you have learned and received and heard and seen [in who? the circumcision apostles? No...] in me, practice these things, and the God of peace shall be with you.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [Gr. pleroo, complete] the word of God;
2 Tim 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Finally...

2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
***

Looking at the record of history...did "faithful men" continue Paul's teaching? ------ Judge for yourself after examining the doctrines that cropped up soon after the apostolic era.

THE LORD'S SUPPER
Three of the "church fathers" --Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus--said the Lord’s Supper had some positive mystical influence on your spirit and physical body when you ate it. Ignatius went as far as to call the bread “The medicine of immortality and the antidote that we should not die but have life forever in Jesus Christ.”
These folks weren’t into transubstantiation as we know it today, but they had an early form of it (more like consubstantiation).

QUESTION: Is that what Paul taught?

Paul clearly taught that it’s a memorial (1 Cor 11:23-26)...an important, solemn memorial, yes, but it’s still just bread and wine with no mention of any mystical presence of the Lord. So who was right -- these early church "fathers," or Paul?

SALVATION, SUFFERING AND PERSERVERENCE

It is reported that Ignatius longed for animals to tear him to bits because he seemed to have believed that suffering and martyrdom would prove his Christianity and ensure his salvation. He seems to have exhibited an attitude of "I must endure to the end to be saved." While Kingdom saints had to believe such dreadful truths (Matt. 24:13), Paul never did.

THE MYSTERY

Did Ignatius really have a grasp on the Mystery? He knew that the body of professing believers was comprised of Jews and Gentiles, but that was a fact clearly evident even to unbelievers. As to Paul's Mystery, he saw it as something else entirely:

"Ye are associates in the mysteries with Paul, who was sanctified, who obtained a good report, who is worthy of all felicitation..." (Eph. 12)

That's as close as can be found that Ignatius got to mentioning Paul's mystery revelation. But he did go into detail on this:

"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord---three mysteries to be cried aloud--which were wrought in the silence of God." (Eph. 19
)
Ignatius did not have a clue regarding the Pauline revelation, judging by what he wrote. Yet he considered the virgin birth and the death of Messiah to have been hidden from Satan. But they weren’t hidden, for both were prophesied in the O.T. What WAS hidden from Satan (and from the whole world) was the full scope of the Cross (1 Cor 2:6-8), which was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul as part of the Mystery. Timothy knew it. Titus knew it. The Ephesians knew it. But Ignatius appears to never have understood it. That scope being that through the atonement work of the cross mankind can be saved by the grace of God based on faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross to pay for their sins.

WATER BAPTISM

This early doctrinal slide is most grossly evident when one examines these writer's opinions of water baptism. Ignatius wrote:
"It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid." (Smy. 8)

"Let your baptism abide with you as your shield... (Poly. 6). Elsewhere he said, "...as your arm..."

What Ignatius meant by "shield" is clear - it's a reference to defense, possibly spiritual armor. However, Paul gave water baptism no such significance. Ignatius is paving the way for a ritualistic, salvational approach to baptism [i.e., Rome's] which is with us to this day, especially when he says only the bishop can perform it or approve of it. No where in the scriptures does it say that only bishops can perform it.

Justin also said that one could believe but wasn’t actually saved until he/she was dunked. That’s a form of baptismal regeneration, from as early as 150 A.D. (some say they used the terms “baptism” and “regeneration” interchangeably). But did Paul EVER teach this? No! These Gentile philosophers sound far more familiar with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 than with Eph 4:5.

NOTE: The point of this post is that all this doctrinal confusion happened within ONE GENERATION of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles and dispenser of the mystery. Not 100 years after his death, gross doctrinal distortion had already set in and the Church believed, and practiced a mix of two dispensations, as well as things not even found in the Bible.

One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.

2 Tim 1:15
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
(NKJ)

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
This is exactly what happened: from among the Gentile believers of Asia, false teachers DID arise, DID speak perverse things and DID draw away disciples unto themselves. All within 100 years of Paul's death and these apostate teachings are still with us today.

I write this so that some might be able to see what happened to the grace gospel that Paul revealed to the world. I know that some will fault me for writing it but they can not refute history.
More than just an important memorial Paul teaches the significance of properly partaking in the sacrament.

29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

It can easily be said the ECFs and Paul agree on a mystical aspect to the Eucharist.

Shalom!
justaname
 

H. Richard

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justaname said:
More than just an important memorial Paul teaches the significance of properly partaking in the sacrament.

29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

It can easily be said the ECFs and Paul agree on a mystical aspect to the Eucharist.

Shalom!
justaname
So you pull a verse out of context to prove your point. When in context it does not mean what you say it does.
 
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justaname

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H. Richard said:
So you pull a verse out of context to prove your point. When in context it does not mean what you say it does.
Really? Perhaps you can explain how? Here is the direct context...

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another-
34 if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home-so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come. - 1 Corinthians 11:26-34

I have bolded portions for emphasis. Here I interpret judgement for partaking in the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. Verse 29 explicitly states that without discernment judgement is brought upon the individual. The result is many are weak and ill, and some have died.

Then here is my direct quote...More than just an important memorial Paul teaches the significance of properly partaking in the sacrament.

So please show me how I pulled the verse out of context and made an inaaprioate statement about it.

Maybe you don't like the fact I said there is a mystical aspect? What other simple bread and wine do people eat and drink judgement from the Lord with direct physical consequences like weakness, illness, or even death?
 
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H. Richard

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justaname said:
Really? Perhaps you can explain how? Here is the direct context...

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another-
34 if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home-so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come. - 1 Corinthians 11:26-34

I have bolded portions for emphasis. Here I interpret judgement for partaking in the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. Verse 29 explicitly states that without discernment judgement is brought upon the individual. The result is many are weak and ill, and some have died.

Then here is my direct quote...More than just an important memorial Paul teaches the significance of properly partaking in the sacrament.

So please show me how I pulled the verse out of context and made an inaaprioate statement about it.

Maybe you don't like the fact I said there is a mystical aspect? What other simple bread and wine do people eat and drink judgement from the Lord with direct physical consequences like weakness, illness, or even death?
***
Cor 11:17-26
Conduct at the Lord's Supper 17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.
19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.
Institution of the Lord's Supper (Matt 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-23) 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.

NKJV

The reason for the Lord's Supper is to remember Jesus. Not for men to gain something for doing it.
 

iakov

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H. Richard said:
So, in your opinion, Jesus would never sent the Gentiles a gospel that did not contain the requirement that we keep the law. Then tell me which part of the law must we keep? According to the scriptures those who are under the law MUST keep all of it.
That is not what She said.

There is no Gospel that contains the requirement to keep the law.
 

iakov

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H. Richard said:
The reason for the Lord's Supper is to remember Jesus. Not for men to gain something for doing it.
The reason for the Lord's supper is what Jesus told His disciples:

JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. (See John 15.) 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

How can we eat His flesh and drink His blood?

MT 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


It's right there in your sola scriptura. You can believe what Jesus taught or you can believe what your church has taught you.

It's your choice but HIS words are Spirit and life; your church's words? Well, who knows?
 

justaname

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H. Richard said:
***
Cor 11:17-26
Conduct at the Lord's Supper 17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.
19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.
21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.
Institution of the Lord's Supper (Matt 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-23) 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.

NKJV

The reason for the Lord's Supper is to remember Jesus. Not for men to gain something for doing it.
Never once did I mention "gain." This is a straw-man fallacy if you are suggesting anything different. The Scripture you posted says nothing to conflict with my comment which was about the ill effects the Corinthians were suffering from improperly partaking in the Eucharist. This fact gives gives the sacrament a mystical aspect.

Shalom!
 

H. Richard

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justaname said:
Never once did I mention "gain." This is a straw-man fallacy if you are suggesting anything different. The Scripture you posted says nothing to conflict with my comment which was about the ill effects the Corinthians were suffering from improperly partaking in the Eucharist. This fact gives gives the sacrament a mystical aspect.

Shalom!
I never said you did. It is not about YOU.

Some teach that a person has to eat and drink TLS in order to be saved. In other words they think by eating and drinking the Lord's Supper they are doing a work that will help save them. That is a fact and not a strawman.

Why is it that people will not engage in meaningful discussions anymore? Perhaps their ego gets in the way.

Jesus, Himself told us why we eat and drink the Lord's Supper. do this in remembrance of Me." But the religious will ignore this because they love religious rituals.
 

KingJ

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H. Richard said:
This writing is offered as a study of Apostasy and is to be considered the view of the writer, me. If it offends any I am sorry, but just as I give others the right to believe and write as they see it I claim that same right for myself. This writing is not a claim, by me, that I know everything. It is my effort to try and understand the truth.
-
Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasy
God supernaturally protected the Jews, supernaturally inspired all those who penned His word....but completely messed up in overseeing its collation and manner in which it was taught for its first 1200 years before Martin Luther?

You may be right on some points, but the overall logic is not adding up.
 

H. Richard

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KingJ said:
God supernaturally protected the Jews, supernaturally inspired all those who penned His word....but completely messed up in overseeing its collation and manner in which it was taught for its first 1200 years before Martin Luther?

You may be right on some points, but the overall logic is not adding up.
I get the idea that many think men have preserved the Bible for us today. They discount the fact that God created the whole universe and is perfectly able the keep His printed word for us today.
 

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H. Richard said:
I get the idea that many think men have preserved the Bible for us today. They discount the fact that God created the whole universe and is perfectly able the keep His printed word for us today.
Who originally compiled and confirmed the books of the NT?

Why are these books not in the NT - the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, The Didache, the Gospel of the Laodiceans, the Gospel of Nicodemus, etc?

Oz
 

iakov

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OzSpen said:
Who originally compiled and confirmed the books of the NT?

Why are these books not in the NT - the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, The Didache, the Gospel of the Laodiceans, the Gospel of Nicodemus, etc?

Oz
You do realize that you are asking for authentic, rational, thought and a bit of research, don't you? :huh:
Care to place a wager on the outcome? :lol:

iakov the fool



[SIZE=9pt]You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. [/SIZE]
 

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iakov said:
You do realize that you are asking for authentic, rational, thought and a bit of research, don't you? :huh:
Care to place a wager on the outcome? :lol:

iakov the fool

You have chosen to subject yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. No warrantee is declared or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day.
iakov the fool,

You are at your cynical best again.

Yes, I understand the challenges of raising such perplexing questions as to why the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, Gospel to the Laodiceans, Gospel to the Hebrews, etc are not in the NT.

Well, I've waited since 25 Feb (that's over 2 weeks on my calendar) so I guess the detailed research is being carried out.

You say, 'No warrantee is declared or implied'. Do you mean warranty or guarantee or something else? :wub: Or, are you into Urban Dictionary Las Vegas edition?

Why don't you get us started? Why is the Gospel of Thomas not in the NT?

Here's a starter. Origen (ca 184-253) mentioned that the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter, and other 'Gospels' were passed down to them (Homilies on Luke 1) and ancient church historian, Eusebius (ca 260-339) included the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Matthias & Gospel of Peter in his list of heretical writings (Ecclesiastical History 3.25.6).

Autumn has begun to arrive in Qld and the muggy summer temperatures seem to be dissipating.

Your Okka mate,
Oz
 

H. Richard

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OzSpen said:
Who originally compiled and confirmed the books of the NT?

Why are these books not in the NT - the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, The Didache, the Gospel of the Laodiceans, the Gospel of Nicodemus, etc?

Oz
Because God did not want them there. I get the idea that some do not believe God has any control over anything in this world.
 

OzSpen

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H. Richard said:
Because God did not want them there. I get the idea that some do not believe God has any control over anything in this world.
Richard,

Is the Apocrypha in your Bible or not? Did God want these Deuterocanonical Books in the Bible as they are in the KJV1611; Douay-Rheims, New American Bible, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NRSV, Revised English Bible, etc?

Oz