Failing the grace of God

[Episkopos]

Now I think that most believers today would agree that the Jews failed at fulfilling the law...even while holding it out to mankind.

But did they fail the law because they were just too busy doing others things...like chariot racing?

or... did they fail in their direct attempt...a very zealous attempt at that...of fulfilling the law by the observance (as consecrated as it would seem)?

The response of the rabbis is...well, better doing a few of the laws than none at all!

The problem with this is that it treats God condescendingly as if we are a better judge for the use of the law than God is.

But we as modern Christians believers are doing all the same things....and are just as blind to it as the Jews were (and are).

Christians by and large are also failing the grace of God. We have redefined the purpose of God so that we can fit into it...just as the Jews did before us with the law. In fact the grace of God is supposed to BE the power that fulfills the law of God...for the Jews to see...and for the world to see...as a light to the world. Instead we have invented a new religion of beliefs. A new salvation religion based on a new god called Jesus. Of course we don't take seriously anything Jesus said. No, we claim the effect of His sacrifice for ourselves through our belief that our beliefs are what counts. So we are the ones in control....manipulating the works of God to our own advantage. Just like the Pharisees did before us. So we are no different.

So did grace make us to be like Jesus?

No, but even a little bit of improvement is better than none at all, right? Just as the rabbis say today.

But there is a God in heaven whose will is not being done...in both cases our failure is not being attested to.

 

[Episkopos]

Humility dictates that we see our failure ...that we have failed grace...as the Jews before us failed the law. That's the point of it. It is the exception that makes it through to God...not the rule. A remnant. A very small remnant. So by exposing people to the truth it allows the remnant to succeed...thereby fulfilling the will of God. To reduce the standard of Christ so that every person can feel like they are somehow succeeding in the will of God...is exactly what we must criticize and guard against. Had the Jews realized how they had failed...they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. They would have been open to correction and impression. But because they were so certain of themselves...the very radical and critical Jesus...was seen as disturbing, offensive, and destructive. Jesus came to bring a sword and fire. He came to bring the truth...not appease mankind. So then you won't be able to handle the prophetic necessity of relating all to the truth...come what may...unless you see Jesus as the stumblingblock and offense He really is.

And now WE are the ones who are so certain of ourselves. We are playing with fire, however....literally.

 

[Episkopos]

The "I'm doing the best I can" under grace...is not what grace is for. Everybody is doing the best they can.

Grace is meant to make all the difference...to do things that are impossible to do for regular human beings. But have we really tapped into the eternal life and power? Are we really "under" grace?

Or are we just spoiled sinners?

God is a God of truth. When we are dishonest with God, others and ourselves, how is that pleasing to God?

Compared to what grace can do...are we not all just unprofitable servants?

When we try doing anything directly...we tend to fail.


In the parable of the publican and the Pharisee....the one who admits his utter failure is justified....and the one who claims to be doing it right...goes UN justified.

We need to admit that we have failed grace. Going part way is not fulfilling grace...just like doing some of the law...but failing at certain points is failing at all. Now we love to say that about the law...without realizing that we are condemning ourselves while under grace.. Just as the law is all or nothing (for fulfillment) so is grace.

Are we even walking as Paul did or Stephen? Why not? Is grace not grace? Or do we earn grace?

We are either walking in God's overcoming power or we are not.

 

[Windmill Charge]

The response of the rabbis is...well, better doing a few of the laws than none at all!

They never advocated this, rather they fenced the Laws of God in with a myriad of additional laws to prevent God's laws from being broken.

In the same way Christians have added rules and laws to Christian life to protect the Christian from breaking the law.

Both failled.

 

[Episkopos]

They never advocated this, rather they fenced the Laws of God in with a myriad of additional laws to prevent God's laws from being broken.

In the same way Christians have added rules and laws to Christian life to protect the Christian from breaking the law.

Both failled.

I'm talking about the modern rabbinic mindset concerning the laws post temple. The rabbis don't condemn Jews for not practicing every law...since they can't...no temple. So they have opted for a "more is better" but not necessary approach.

It is identical to the evangelical model of..."do what you can and Jesus will cover the rest. "

 

[faithfulness]

The "I'm doing the best I can" under grace...is not what grace is for. Everybody is doing the best they can.

Grace is meant to make all the difference...to do things that are impossible to do for regular human beings. But have we really tapped into the eternal life and power? Are we really "under" grace?

Or are we just spoiled sinners?

God is a God of truth. When we are dishonest with God, others and ourselves, how is that pleasing to God?

Compared to what grace can do...are we not all just unprofitable servants?

When we try doing anything directly...we tend to fail.


In the parable of the publican and the Pharisee....the one who admits his utter failure is justified....and the one who claims to be doing it right...goes UN justified.

We need to admit that we have failed grace. Going part way is not fulfilling grace...just like doing some of the law...but failing at certain points is failing at all. Now we love to say that about the law...without realizing that we are condemning ourselves while under grace.. Just as the law is all or nothing (for fulfillment) so is grace.

Are we even walking as Paul did or Stephen? Why not? Is grace not grace? Or do we earn grace?

We are either walking in God's overcoming power or we are not.

Is walking in His overcoming power an either/or experience, or is it progressive as in first His ‘deliverance’ power, then His ‘keeping’ sustaining power-grace, then ‘resurrection life’ power?
That’s what I’ve been taught.
Thankyou.

 

[Episkopos]

Is walking in His overcoming power an either/or experience, or is it progressive as in first His ‘deliverance’ power, then His ‘keeping’ grace, then ‘resurrection’ power?
That’s what I’ve been taught.
Thankyou.

The purity of Christ is a gift...all at once. We have all the grace He has for us when we abide in Him. But maturity is progressive IF we are learning from our experience. And we grow in righteousness if we can remain humble.

So then everything is at either the level of what we are doing (our own righteousness)...or else what God is doing through us (His righteousness). When we begin our walks the difference between who we are of ourselves and who we are in Christ is vast. But maturity means we are bridging that gap. We are becoming more like Christ in our own character...till Christ be formed in us. And that has a lot to do with being weaned away from reliance on the flesh...together with our ideas and opinions. These all fall to the wayside so that we can remain open to God. :)

 

[Stumpmaster]

Christians by and large are also failing the grace of God. We have redefined the purpose of God so that we can fit into it...just as the Jews did before us with the law. In fact the grace of God is supposed to BE the power that fulfills the law of God...for the Jews to see...and for the world to see...as a light to the world. Instead we have invented a new religion of beliefs. A new salvation religion based on a new god called Jesus. Of course we don't take seriously anything Jesus said. No, we claim the effect of His sacrifice for ourselves through our belief that our beliefs are what counts. So we are the ones in control....manipulating the works of God to our own advantage. Just like the Pharisees did before us. So we are no different.

Hi Episkopos. You do well to raise this subject. Just as the entire Bible is occupied with the need for detection and correction of error and apostasy among God's People, so should God's People be occupied with it, hence the exhortation to "look diligently" in Hebrews 12:15
Heb 12:14-16
(14) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
(15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
(16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

In context these verses advise us not to buckle under opposition from sinners or from chastening by God. As you will be aware, failing of the grace of God is one of three "lests" that God's People can help detect and correct by looking diligently for:-

1. Lest anyone fail of the grace of God
2. Lest any root of bitterness spring up
3. Lest there be any fornicator or profane person

You are right on message when you speak to the problem of man's headship and control among God's People versus the headship of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There is indeed a need to avoid the sort of failing of the grace of God that occurs when the light of the Gospel is dimmed by these four methods of carnal control:-

1. Domination
2. Intimidation
3. Manipulation
4. Seduction

When anything usurps God's position as the supreme object of our desire, devotion, and dedication, we have to varying degrees failed of His grace.

Thanks for your thread, Episkopos. God Bless.

 

[Windmill Charge]

do what you can and Jesus will cover the rest. "

Never encountered that mind set, but then it was only on forums based in the US that I encountered those who believe a temple has to be built!

Two equally weird mind sets.

 

[Episkopos]

Hebrews 4:1-11
4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

I think that the bible writers of that day would be shocked at the state of the modern church. Do we even know what entering into rest means? Ceasing from our own life, our own thoughts and ideas....and entering into the love, joy and peace of the Lord.

 

[Nancy]

Hebrews 4:1-11
4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

I think that the bible writers of that day would be shocked at the state of the modern church. Do we even know what entering into rest means? Ceasing from our own life, our own thoughts and ideas....and entering into the love, joy and peace of the Lord.

"Do we even know what entering into rest means?"

To me, entering into His rest means total submission KNOWING that His ways are way higher than mine, and His plans are ALWAYS good. Doubt and unrest can slip in from time to time as we are still battling sin and the flesh, believing without seeing is awesome once we experience His peace that is NOT of this world. We can fall 10 times a day but, it is the getting back up and never giving up that counts. That shows faith, yes?
He has come through for me in so very many ways, I could NEVER denounce Him and His Truth. He, though He is not to be held to anything, makes the impossible to us, possible! Now, if only I could learn better study habits

 

[Episkopos]

"Do we even know what entering into rest means?"

To me, entering into His rest means total submission KNOWING that His ways are way higher than mine, and His plans are ALWAYS good. Doubt and unrest can slip in from time to time as we are still battling sin and the flesh, believing without seeing is awesome once we experience His peace that is NOT of this world. We can fall 10 times a day but, it is the getting back up and never giving up that counts. That shows faith, yes?
He has come through for me in so very many ways, I could NEVER denounce Him and His Truth. He, though He is not to be held to anything, makes the impossible to us, possible! Now, if only I could learn better study habits

The rest is waiting for us when we go through the narrow door. Getting there is very hard. Just when we are having the hardest time of it...peace is there. So then God comforts us. And that is why I see self-comfort as so deceptive.

 

[Episkopos]

We tend to fail the grace of God because we don't go far enough. We give up before we succeed with God. But Jacob wrestled all night to get the victory. And Jesus tells us to be like woman who knocks all night until the goodman rises to see her.
Ask, seek and knock!

We fail the grace of God because we think that grace is an unconditional favour from God. We confuse the means of grace with mercy. Sure, mercy is there..when God sees us floundering with no purpose. But in the end we must avail ourselves of His grace to do the works of salvation. We will be judged by the kind of works we have done. With grace we can do as Jesus did.

Is that what we are doing with grace?

 

[Episkopos]

I posted this on another thread...but I think it works here too...

Grace is a gift that enables us to do things...not to be forgiven things. Quite the opposite. We will be judged harder under grace. Mercy is not the same as grace. God has always been merciful...but grace comes from the resurrection power of Christ.

I explain grace like this. We are told to dig a hole. (law) Now men make shovels and try to dig as deep as they can. But this is insufficient.

Now grace is like the gift of a backhoe (tractor)...given to us in order to dig like no man has ever dug before. (before Jesus)

But if we leave the backhoe un-utilized...and even condemn others for digging with shovels...while celebrating the gift of getting the backhoe all the same...then we are the laziest people in the world...that refused grace and justified ourselves because of the gifting from God. We would be wicked servants indeed. (think burying our talent)

On judgment day the only thing that matters is how deeply we dug. Grace will have nothing to do with it...although they with the greater capacity...who didn't dig...will receive the greater condemnation. Unless they dig!



Can you dig it?

 

[Episkopos]

People latch onto grace because it seems like an easy way to salvation. People like the free stuff. People like the easy stuff.

Imagine going to a university...where all the answers are provided so you didn't have to actually learn anything. What would the degrees be worth? Well, less than the paper they were printed on. And yet if that scheme could be seen as providing proper degrees...for doing zero effort...it would be the most popular institution in the land.

And that is the appeal of the modern churches. They hand out salvation certificates like it was candy. But we will only find out the value of the those salvations on judgment day. Until then, it's business as usual.

 

[Episkopos]

When you mix grace with human nature...you get a monster. You get a spoiled sinner who refuses humility and repentance. Hence the need for the cross of Christ and repentance BEFORE grace is given. "Grace is deceitful"

But people have made an end run for grace BEFORE they are ready...and not even a true grace...but a false sense of security in the carnal state. Grace is meant to empower the dead man in Christ to a new life and power in these mortal bodies. Grace is meant to bring a transformation of what is temporal into the eternal realm.

But people have not been careful. The same way that we are destroying the environment for profit....we are destroying souls to feel successful and to get an increase in numbers and financial gain.

Men have taken over the church. And the wrong men. These have usurped God's authority for their own aggrandizement. It is a recipe for disaster and failure. Spiritual leaders are there to make sure that the things of the Spirit are properly understood and administered. But there is a famine in the land of sound spiritual teaching and example. There is a famine from hearing the actual words of the Lord. The prophets have returned to the wilderness to remain there until the church begs God for their return.

 

[amadeus]

When you mix grace with human nature...you get a monster. You get a spoiled sinner who refuses humility and repentance. Hence the need for the cross of Christ and repentance BEFORE grace is given. "Grace is deceitful"

But people have made an end run for grace BEFORE they are ready...and not even a true grace...but a false sense of security in the carnal state. Grace is meant to empower the dead man in Christ to a new life and power in these mortal bodies. Grace is meant to bring a transformation of what is temporal into the eternal realm.

But people have not been careful. The same way that we are destroying the environment for profit....we are destroying souls to feel successful and to get an increase in numbers and financial gain.

Men have taken over the church. And the wrong men. These have usurped God's authority for their own aggrandizement. It is a recipe for disaster and failure. Spiritual leaders are there to make sure that the things of the Spirit are properly understood and administered. But there is a famine in the land of sound spiritual teaching and example. There is a famine from hearing the actual words of the Lord. The prophets have returned to the wilderness to remain there until the church begs God for their return.

Sounds quite a bit like what Jesus found in Israel among those who were quick to name themselves as the children of Abraham, God's people!

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." John 8:39-45

 

[Episkopos]

Attitude: The blood of Christ covers sins...but it can't cover a bad attitude. We fail when we seek to survive our failures...when we don't allow the lessons of life to sink in deeply enough.

Do we have the same humility as the prodigal son? Here is a man who did wickedly and very wastefully. But the father was not upset for his sins as the brother was. That's like us...we focus on the failure and sins as opposed to what that failure and sins bring us to. And that's what God cares about. But we look at the sins as the focus. We don't consider that people can be broken and change. We just care about the damage. God ignores the damage to win us from within. To make us see our true condition and to humbly submit to God's ways. David was a man who sinned in a big way. But his failures broke him...caused him to see his true nature. And caused him to surrender to God in brokenness and humility. So David was a man of God even though he sinned greatly.

Are we like that? Or are we just looking to get away with a character that remains as it always was? Are we just looking for a way out of judgment?


God's focus is on what we become. What the sins we commit make us do. But we just want forgiveness of sins so we can get back to feeling good about ourselves. We don't want to be permanently broken.

Did the prodigal son feel good about himself? Did the publican feel good that God justified him?

Of course not.

So we should forget about feeling good about our forgiveness...and forget about trying to enjoy the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf.

We want to comfort ourselves. But in so doing we are seeking to enjoy the benefits of the sufferings of Jesus.

How backwards we are. And how easily we can offend God and frustrate the grace of God.

 

[Episkopos]

The gift of grace: people receive grace as a gift...as if God was giving His gifts for nothing...to just be enjoyed by people as if God was a Club Med director. We like to see God as our servant rather than the truth that we are to be His servants. If He gives to us...then it is dishonourable to not give back everything to God.

Grace is meant to empower us to give our lives to God...fully and completely. Grace is meant to help us into holiness...without which none shall see the Lord.

Psalm 76:11
11 Vow, and pay unto the Lord your God: let all that be round about him bring presents unto him that ought to be feared.


Romans 12:1-2
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[Episkopos]

We each have been called to go down a different path than what is offered by the world. But we must be certain that that path isn't a religious one. The only safety we have in avoiding that path is to embrace humility, brokenness and the fear of the Lord. The good path retains these. The religious path eschews these. It is the difference between wisdom and foolishness.