Faith verses Mysticism

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Netchaplain

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Desire and love are two very distinct things. Desire supposes the capacity of enjoying the thing which one desires, namely, the spiritual affections which as to the root of their nature, have God for their Object. Love, on the contrary, is in full possession of the object of desire. It is no longer just a want, but the enjoyment, the appreciation of the object itself, which is our delight.

Now mysticism, while it greatly exalts the feelings, yet never goes beyond desire (desire alone doesn’t possess, only wants—NC); whereas simple Christianity, at the same time that it gives the knowledge of salvation, puts us in full possession of the love of God—it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. I know that my Father love me, even as He loves His beloved Son. That love has saved me. It is He who desired me! His love had need of me, and that love has shone forth in the Lord Jesus in all its perfection. I contemplate that love in peace; I love and worship the Lord Jesus. I abide in Him and Him in me—I know Him as my very Christian Life.

The mystic’s idea of love is erroneous in its very nature. It is something of man which craves satisfaction, instead of being something of God which satisfies the heart perfectly, deeply and infinitely. Hence those extraordinary efforts to abase and blacken oneself, and that habit of speaking ill of oneself, as if a saved soul could be something before a Savior, instead of being overpowered and forgetting oneself in the presence of such great love, and of enjoying it.

Is it when we are truly transported in the presence of our Father, and when we contemplate His glorious beauty in His Son, that we can be occupied with the hideous images which hide themselves in the heart of man? Never! We think of our Father. He has given us the right and the affection to do so by that grace which has really abolished and condemned all that we were, at Calvary (He knew all who would be receiving grace at Christ’s expiation for their sin nature—NC), when we were living outside of the Lord Jesus, when we were in the fallen Adam.

My Father has satisfied the claims of His holiness, His majesty, His righteousness and His love in the work and presence in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has found His rest there, and I have also found mine. The mystic never has it, because he vainly seeks for in man that which he ought only to seek for in God, who had accomplished all, before he ever thought of it. Therefore the mystic seeks for a disinterested love; but where does he seek it? In himself, in man.

Is it that the deep affections, which the Cross awakened in one, have ceased, because it is no longer a need that overwhelms us? No; conscious interfered, and put me in my right place; that which my Father has done, what He has given me, peace, is now established in my soul and can no longer be disturbed. I have divine leisure, because nothing is uncertain in my relationship with my Father; nothing hinders me from contemplating all that is perfect in the Object of my affections, without being occupied with myself.

The mystic humbles himself, because he still hopes to find good in himself; he is occupied with this, as if there could be any, and alas, he finds nothing but evil. The believer is humble, which is a very different things, because he has given up the thought of any discovery of good in himself (as to producing anything salvific, even in new self, which is only a product of redemption, and that, forever—NC), in order to love and worship the One in whom there is only that which is good. He understands and accepts that love toward himself, namely, the Lord Jesus has died, and that he has died and risen with Him.


—J N Darby (1800-1882)






MJS devotional excerpt for Feb 11


“It is not the design of God to deprive His children of happiness, but only to pour the cup of bitterness into that happiness which the believer has in anything outside of Christ.” -F.F.

“Everything that tries us, which is a check upon us that causes exercise of heart, and makes us sensible of weakness in ourselves, is of the nature of chastisement (child-training). It may come in the way of difficulties in the path of faith; or in the shape of such trials and sorrows as are common to all men—loss of property, loss of health, or bereavement; or it may be as the governmental consequences of sin; but in one way or other all have it. It is ‘for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness’ (Heb. 12:10). That is, it serves to break down that which is not of God in us, that the life of the Lord Jesus might be made manifest.” -C.A.C.
None But The Hungry Heart
 

michaelvpardo

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mysticism
[ˈmistəˌsizəm]
NOUN
  1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
    "St. Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"
The other principle use of the word implies delusional thought, but the definition above describes the born again experience of knowing and being taught by God and conforms precisely to the scriptures description of relationship with God through Christ. If this isn't your experience, you're simply denying yourself fellowship with the creator of all things, and the fullness of faith in Christ Jesus.
 
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Netchaplain

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mysticism
[ˈmistəˌsizəm]
NOUN
  1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
    "St. Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism".
Hi, and appreciate your comment! It's my understanding that the concept of mysticism, as all other erroneous groups claiming Christianity omits centering on (or not even mentioning) the primary subject of Christ, thus having no true representation of God our Father! This and all concepts absented of the Lord Jesus is the most obvious demonstration of antichristian forces; and they all are connected as they are traced back to their inceptions.

Naturalism in one of its direct form: Mysticism - "the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (such as intuition or insight)." Evil's dead giveaway--it always appeals to the flesh instead of faith.
Definition of MYSTICISM
 

stunnedbygrace

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mysticism
[ˈmistəˌsizəm]
NOUN
  1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
    "St. Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"
The other principle use of the word implies delusional thought, but the definition above describes the born again experience of knowing and being taught by God and conforms precisely to the scriptures description of relationship with God through Christ. If this isn't your experience, you're simply denying yourself fellowship with the creator of all things, and the fullness of faith in Christ Jesus.

It’s just the darnedest thing that anyone could read a Teresa or a John of the Cross and see these saints as evil…Thirsting and panting after God has now become evil. A union in love with God is disdained. Is it because it requires negation of self that it appears an odious thing…?
 

michaelvpardo

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Hi, and appreciate your comment! It's my understanding that the concept of mysticism, as all other erroneous groups claiming Christianity omits centering on (or not even mentioning) the primary subject of Christ, thus having no true representation of God our Father! This and all concepts absented of the Lord Jesus is the most obvious demonstration of antichristian forces; and they all are connected as they are traced back to their inceptions.

Naturalism in one of its direct form: Mysticism - "the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (such as intuition or insight)." Evil's dead giveaway--it always appeals to the flesh instead of faith.
Definition of MYSTICISM
Mysticism outside of faith in Christ can only be misleading and Satanic. You must have His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth or more commonly identified as the Holy Spirit, to know Him, to know spiritual truth. His Spirit is freely given to those who believe in Jesus Christ our Lord, according to His teaching and for the asking in faith and in submission to Him (which implies to His word.)

I'm familiar to some extent with Eastern Mysticism, having studied Tai Chi Chuan as taught by an American sifu and expert in Kung fu for 3 years and a Taiwanese master for another year, who approached the study from the Taoist view point. I was successful in learning how to manipulate "energies " (which I understand to have been manipulation by those spiritual forces). Taoism is based upon natural revelation of God through His creation, but remains powerless to transform our base and fallen nature.

The premise of Taoism is that the Tao can't be known or described, which is true of God if not for Him choosing to reveal Himself in the person of His Son.

The problem that I have in witnessing Christ to Taoists is the clever part of the deception of Taoism. They would say that the Tao (the Way) can't be described, but Christ is revealed, so their logic is that Christ can't be the Tao in that He is revealed and can be known. It's a point of contention between my brother and I. We both rejected Catholicism at an early age, but his rebellion is common to man's. He clings to the notion that he is master of his own life, recognizes wrong doing as personal affront (not as sin), and considers submission to be weakness of will. I think this defines the strong delusion of our times.

I am well pleased with my relationship with my Lord, but couldn't say that before I understood and believed the gospel, before I received Him by faith. I wasn't simply "saved" but delivered from unclean spiritual beings. I actually felt them leave when I received Him, and while I can't base my faith upon my experience, my experience confirms the word of God, the sole basis of genuine faith.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Hmm…episkopos said something that I thought of when I was reading what you posted.
Moses went up on the mountain and spoke face to face with God. Yet no man may see Gods face and live. So it was was Jesus he spoke with face to face, not God.
I wonder what a Taoist would think of that…
Not that it would help them much, because they would then accept God but not Jesus who is the door to God.

I’m very glad for you.
 

michaelvpardo

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It’s just the darnedest thing that anyone could read a Teresa or a John of the Cross and see these saints as evil…Thirsting and panting after God has now become evil. A union in love with God is disdained. Is it because it requires negation of self that it appears an odious thing…?
I think people are typically unable to trust themselves or the word of God. People seeking God are sometimes so fearful of deception and destruction that they think that they won't recognize the Lord when He speaks:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. John 10:1-5

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:26-30

I find the entire chapter 10 of John's gospel to be the most powerful passage of the assurance of salvation, but those who have come to recognize their own sin and haven't entered into relationship with God through His Spirit can have intense fear that they aren't His and don't know His voice. (If I hear His voice and don't recognize it, then I must not be His). For them, passing through the door of the sheepfold is the first challenge of faith, and chapter 10 of John's gospel is the source of fear rather than assurance.
It's a good thing that chapter 10 doesn't stand alone, but that Jesus also said:

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. John 6:37

I know a whole denomination that stumbles over these verses because of the "teaching" of their priesthood.
 

GISMYS_7

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John 14:9==Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I think people are typically unable to trust themselves or the word of God. People seeking God are sometimes so fearful of deception and destruction that they think that they won't recognize the Lord when He speaks:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. John 10:1-5

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:26-30

I find the entire chapter 10 of John's gospel to be the most powerful passage of the assurance of salvation, but those who have come to recognize their own sin and haven't entered into relationship with God through His Spirit can have intense fear that they aren't His and don't know His voice. (If I hear His voice and don't recognize it, then I must not be His). For them, passing through the door of the sheepfold is the first challenge of faith, and chapter 10 of John's gospel is the source of fear rather than assurance.
It's a good thing that chapter 10 doesn't stand alone, but that Jesus also said:

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. John 6:37

I know a whole denomination that stumbles over these verses because of the "teaching" of their priesthood.

I feel that way about that chapter too. And there are many other verses that are great encouragement to me that look discouraging to others. I see them as wonderful promises but others see them as…condemnation…
 

bbyrd009

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They would say that the Tao (the Way) can't be described, but Christ is revealed, so their logic is that Christ can't be the Tao in that He is revealed and can be known
you could argue that Christ might be revealed, but few there are who find it

and considers submission to be weakness of will
so obviously Christ is not revealed, right
 

stunnedbygrace

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Can’t find it Byrd. I know it was him who said it though. His are the first posts I check every day because he helps me so much. :)
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Exodus 33:11 is the verse though.

And that same glow that Moses had on his face seems to be the same glow Jesus had at the transfiguration…
 
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Episkopos

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Desire and love are two very distinct things. Desire supposes the capacity of enjoying the thing which one desires, namely, the spiritual affections which as to the root of their nature, have God for their Object. Love, on the contrary, is in full possession of the object of desire. It is no longer just a want, but the enjoyment, the appreciation of the object itself, which is our delight.

Now mysticism, while it greatly exalts the feelings, yet never goes beyond desire (desire alone doesn’t possess, only wants—NC); whereas simple Christianity, at the same time that it gives the knowledge of salvation, puts us in full possession of the love of God—it is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. I know that my Father love me, even as He loves His beloved Son. That love has saved me. It is He who desired me! His love had need of me, and that love has shone forth in the Lord Jesus in all its perfection. I contemplate that love in peace; I love and worship the Lord Jesus. I abide in Him and Him in me—I know Him as my very Christian Life.

The mystic’s idea of love is erroneous in its very nature. It is something of man which craves satisfaction, instead of being something of God which satisfies the heart perfectly, deeply and infinitely. Hence those extraordinary efforts to abase and blacken oneself, and that habit of speaking ill of oneself, as if a saved soul could be something before a Savior, instead of being overpowered and forgetting oneself in the presence of such great love, and of enjoying it.

Is it when we are truly transported in the presence of our Father, and when we contemplate His glorious beauty in His Son, that we can be occupied with the hideous images which hide themselves in the heart of man? Never! We think of our Father. He has given us the right and the affection to do so by that grace which has really abolished and condemned all that we were, at Calvary (He knew all who would be receiving grace at Christ’s expiation for their sin nature—NC), when we were living outside of the Lord Jesus, when we were in the fallen Adam.

My Father has satisfied the claims of His holiness, His majesty, His righteousness and His love in the work and presence in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has found His rest there, and I have also found mine. The mystic never has it, because he vainly seeks for in man that which he ought only to seek for in God, who had accomplished all, before he ever thought of it. Therefore the mystic seeks for a disinterested love; but where does he seek it? In himself, in man.

Is it that the deep affections, which the Cross awakened in one, have ceased, because it is no longer a need that overwhelms us? No; conscious interfered, and put me in my right place; that which my Father has done, what He has given me, peace, is now established in my soul and can no longer be disturbed. I have divine leisure, because nothing is uncertain in my relationship with my Father; nothing hinders me from contemplating all that is perfect in the Object of my affections, without being occupied with myself.

The mystic humbles himself, because he still hopes to find good in himself; he is occupied with this, as if there could be any, and alas, he finds nothing but evil. The believer is humble, which is a very different things, because he has given up the thought of any discovery of good in himself (as to producing anything salvific, even in new self, which is only a product of redemption, and that, forever—NC), in order to love and worship the One in whom there is only that which is good. He understands and accepts that love toward himself, namely, the Lord Jesus has died, and that he has died and risen with Him.


—J N Darby (1800-1882)






MJS devotional excerpt for Feb 11


“It is not the design of God to deprive His children of happiness, but only to pour the cup of bitterness into that happiness which the believer has in anything outside of Christ.” -F.F.

“Everything that tries us, which is a check upon us that causes exercise of heart, and makes us sensible of weakness in ourselves, is of the nature of chastisement (child-training). It may come in the way of difficulties in the path of faith; or in the shape of such trials and sorrows as are common to all men—loss of property, loss of health, or bereavement; or it may be as the governmental consequences of sin; but in one way or other all have it. It is ‘for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness’ (Heb. 12:10). That is, it serves to break down that which is not of God in us, that the life of the Lord Jesus might be made manifest.” -C.A.C.
None But The Hungry Heart

This is anti spiritual drivel that is really anti-Christ...because God IS Spirit and reveals Himself to His saints by visitation of the Spirit. To be in Christ is to be filled with the Spirit so as to walk as Jesus walked. This is about power...the power of the life to come. This level of walk will never be the status quo in the church because so few will enter into the Kingdom walk through the doorway which is Christ the Lord. This is intolerable to the carnally minded who want to follow Christ but can only do so from a certain distance.

It is pride that makes accusations against the standard of holiness that God has permitted the saint to walk in. Think of Cain who hated his brother Abel. It is the spirit of Cain that rails against the spiritual life as "mystical." That spirit rejects what God is doing to build His church...preferring the schemes of men that have no power over sin.

The truly humble have no such pride..and are available to be given grace to walk in resurrection life. God gives grace to the humble. Not so the ones who continue to make up schemes that defend the carnal walk.
 

Behold

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My Father has satisfied the claims of His holiness, His majesty, His righteousness and His love in the work and presence in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has found His rest there, and I have also found mine. The mystic never has it,
-
NC,

I would have to strongly disagree with everything you have described, as your idea of a CM.
In fact, here is the reality.
All the greatest seekers of God, have ended up, as Mystics.
ALL, without exception, if they lived long enough....Some died too early to achieve it.

St Francis
Paul The Apostle
Jean Guyon
Hildegard of Bingen
Mary of Egypt
and on and on and on throughout the history of the body of Christ...these beautiful Spirit Filled Saints, basically glowed with God's power and Christ's Eternal Life.

In Fact, here is the reality..NET Chaplin..... as your idea is exactly the opposite regarding "what is".... a Christian Mystic, ....a real one.
Your description fits a Gnostic, not a Christian Mystic, and i should know.
Listen....reader.....Christian Mysticism, is the advanced level of "new creation in Christ"..= "as many as be perfect", "Christ always gives me the Victory"..>"it is not I who lives but Christ who lives through me".. = Paul Teaches. and that is Paul the Mystic. Paul the Revelator.
And what did Paul the Revelator, reveal? Most of the NEW TESTAMENT that He wrote, and all the Church Doctrine.
That's Paul the Christian Mystic.

Now, Here are the levels of real christian discipleship, as it progresses "in Christ".

1.) Born again. (Salvation Day)
2.) Babe in Christ (New Believer)
3.) Working out your salvation (Study to show yourself approved level)
4.) As many as be perfect (Mind of Christ Gained and sustained)
5.) Christian Mysticism attained
6.) I have finished my Course (Earthly ministry finished)
7.) Christian Martyr (Martyr For Christ )

Most believers are : #2-#3.....and they never get past this spiritual status. because they are FAITH destroyed as this verse explains....the why and the how.
Hebrews 13:9

Now reader,
i greatly implore you to read the Bio's of all those i named in the List.
It'll do you good to read about the lives of those who really really were "in the world but not of it". "Christian Mystics"
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I was successful in learning how to manipulate "energies " (which I understand to have been manipulation by those spiritual forces).

Watchman Nee would have called it the latent power of the soul. If you haven’t read that book, you might be interested.
 
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michaelvpardo

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I don’t remember! Maybe a week or two ago. Let me see if I can find it.
There's actually more than one occasion where Moses spoke "face to face" with God, and not only "on the mountain " but within the "tent of meeting."
Here's one explicit verse:

So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle. Exodus 33:11

This verse also provides another tasty morsel at the end in its mention of Moses' servant.
"Joshua" is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek name "Jesus".
"Nun" means "perpetuity" or never ending, and if you think this isn't relevant, we see elsewhere that Joshua's name wasn't actually Joshua, but Hoshea and Moses only called him Joshua. Moses made Joshua into a "type" of Christ.

16 These are the names of the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun, Joshua. Numbers 13:16

I've always loved finding these little nuggets casually dispersed through the text of the Old Testament. They all point to Jesus Christ in His ministry as revealed in the New Testament.
 

michaelvpardo

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Watchman Nee would have called it the latent power of the soul. If you haven’t read that book, you might be interested.
While I believe that we were created for greater things in Christ, according to scripture we're little more than animated mud men so I'm not inclined to believe in any "latent power" in man. It's no coincidence that I met a psychic who demonstrated a real ability to effect physical disturbance with his mind and will, and the same claimed that my childhood invisible friend "Jesus", who actually answered unselfish prayers, was not Jesus at all.

Unclean Spirits, demonic forces, fallen angels, all have power derived originally from God (His gifts and calling are irrevocable ), but as forces of the adversary, they've chosen to use those powers in deception, to draw people away from the truth in Christ Jesus. Satan wants us to share in his condemnation by exhalting ourselves against God, and all modern religions are just variations on the original lie, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5
False religions generally teach that through knowledge you can become "as God" while scripture teaches that we can be renewed in His image by submitting to His word and through faith in His Son. The world's religions are about attaining godliness through our own effort, while saving faith is about allowing God to work in and through us. This describes the righteousness of men trying to climb to the heavens, verses the righteousness of God saving us and lifting us out of the mud.