A direct contradiction of your opinion and your experience.
We are not to keep the law of Moses but the laws of God.
Faith without works is dead
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A direct contradiction of your opinion and your experience.
We are not to keep the law of Moses but the laws of God.
Hello williemac,
Thank you for bringing this verse to my attention.
I would like to draw you back to its context, if I may.
Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he [Abraham] was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision,
but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which
[he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised;
that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps
of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be
the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham;
Do you see in v 16 that Paul then says 'to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law ....' ? He points out that Abraham was not under law, therefore no transgression was imputed to him, but he obtained righteousness by believing God's word to him, and this is the kind of faith by which Gentiles may be included in the New Covenant - believing God's word to them.
Looking back at his comment about law in 4:14, this only makes sense in the context of 4:16, if we see that the people to whom he was preaching all the time, were being asked to leave the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, for the better sacrifice of Christ.
His argument in Romans 4 is very tight, because he is showing how those who had lived under the law before Christ died, could now not count on their law-keeping for righteousness, but he was not excluding those whose only route to righteousness had been to keep the law, before Christ. At the start of the chapter he had said: 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Christ paid this debt for those who had already died under the law. Hebrews 9:15
Hi Richard,
I apologise for not noticing your post to me.
Here are the two places where Paul mentions being dead to the law:
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
.
Paul is talking about marrying, and staying married, to Christ, now.
You cannot but see that our deadness to the law is for a purpose - that of abiding in Christ to bring forth fruit to God, and, obeying God. According to
Romans 8:1, 2 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Thus, being free to not sin, anytime you do sin, you make yourself again subject to the sanctions of the law. 1 Tim 1:9, 10 This is why repentance from each sin is required from the believer, whereas someone coming to Christ for the first time, need only declare their sinfulness per se.
This is why Paul could write in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but...' because if those brethren to not abstain from those sins, they will be bringing themselves back under God's wrath over to their unrighteousness. It is not enough to repent once for sins that are past and be washed, and then return to the mire. One has to stay washed, to be clean. 1 John 1:7; Rev 7:14.
Not only James, but John also state the same truth: 1 John 1:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
According to John, those calling themselves Christians who continue in sin, have neither seen Christ nor known Him.
'How are we convinced of the law as transgreessors when you know we are dead to the law and are not under the law?'
Do dead men sin?
Thank you for bringing this verse to my attention.
I would like to draw you back to its context, if I may.
Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he [Abraham] was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision,
but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which
[he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised;
that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps
of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be
the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham;
Do you see in v 16 that Paul then says 'to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law ....' ? He points out that Abraham was not under law, therefore no transgression was imputed to him, but he obtained righteousness by believing God's word to him, and this is the kind of faith by which Gentiles may be included in the New Covenant - believing God's word to them.
Looking back at his comment about law in 4:14, this only makes sense in the context of 4:16, if we see that the people to whom he was preaching all the time, were being asked to leave the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, for the better sacrifice of Christ.
His argument in Romans 4 is very tight, because he is showing how those who had lived under the law before Christ died, could now not count on their law-keeping for righteousness, but he was not excluding those whose only route to righteousness had been to keep the law, before Christ. At the start of the chapter he had said: 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Christ paid this debt for those who had already died under the law. Hebrews 9:15
Hi Richard,
I apologise for not noticing your post to me.
Here are the two places where Paul mentions being dead to the law:
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
.
Paul is talking about marrying, and staying married, to Christ, now.
You cannot but see that our deadness to the law is for a purpose - that of abiding in Christ to bring forth fruit to God, and, obeying God. According to
Romans 8:1, 2 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Thus, being free to not sin, anytime you do sin, you make yourself again subject to the sanctions of the law. 1 Tim 1:9, 10 This is why repentance from each sin is required from the believer, whereas someone coming to Christ for the first time, need only declare their sinfulness per se.
This is why Paul could write in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but...' because if those brethren to not abstain from those sins, they will be bringing themselves back under God's wrath over to their unrighteousness. It is not enough to repent once for sins that are past and be washed, and then return to the mire. One has to stay washed, to be clean. 1 John 1:7; Rev 7:14.
Not only James, but John also state the same truth: 1 John 1:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
According to John, those calling themselves Christians who continue in sin, have neither seen Christ nor known Him.
'How are we convinced of the law as transgreessors when you know we are dead to the law and are not under the law?'
Do dead men sin?
AMEN !
Hi dragonfly,
I agree dead men don't sin, but we clearly differ in our understanding of this.
I have asked Epi and he admits he still sins. How about you? Do you still sin?
And can you clarify what you see the law as?
*********
dragonfly are you saying that these two scriptures do not tell the truth and must be modified by your scriptures and ideas to make them the truth?
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Are we not dead to the law?
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;
that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Have we not become dead to the Law?
The scripture say we should bring forth fruit. What fruit are we to bring forth? Trying not to sin in the flesh is not fruit for God. It is trying to earn points with God. Fruit for God is to teach the gospel that saves a person and makes children of God.
No mater how you wish to cloke the words they mean what they say. The child of God is dead to the law.
If God calls a person righteous how does 1 Corinthians 6:9 apply to that person. Isn't that person righteous. In light of the vision God showed Peter we are not to call what God has cleansed unclean. If God accounts a person sinless (clean) who is man to say that person is not clean?
Hi haz,
You asked about 'law'. I guess you're referring to the Mosaic law, rather than any of the other laws mentioned in the NT. if not, please coyld you clarify?
Many thanks.
Hi Richard,
I think perhaps it is you who is modifying scripture by continually talking about how the man of flesh cannot cease from sin, even though it is clear that Paul, Peter and John all indicate that he can.
Therefore you and I cannot ignore the implications of 1 Cor 6:9 if we do sin as a lifestyle.
The cleanness in the vision Peter had was to do with how the Gentiles could be cleansed in the blood of Christ if they believed in Him. It was not about positional righteousness separate from the fruits of repentance and obedience to the Father's will.
I accept that for certain people in the Church, fruit-bearing includes leading people to the Lord, but the universal application to which Christ is refin John 15, is to be abiding in Him, the True Vine, and bringing forth the fruit of theSpirit.
if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and, 1 John 1:7 applies continuously - if we truly have come to t ' that our deeds be wrought in God. John 3:20, 21.
You asked about 'law'. I guess you're referring to the Mosaic law, rather than any of the other laws mentioned in the NT. if not, please coyld you clarify?
Many thanks.
Hi Richard,
I think perhaps it is you who is modifying scripture by continually talking about how the man of flesh cannot cease from sin, even though it is clear that Paul, Peter and John all indicate that he can.
Therefore you and I cannot ignore the implications of 1 Cor 6:9 if we do sin as a lifestyle.
The cleanness in the vision Peter had was to do with how the Gentiles could be cleansed in the blood of Christ if they believed in Him. It was not about positional righteousness separate from the fruits of repentance and obedience to the Father's will.
I accept that for certain people in the Church, fruit-bearing includes leading people to the Lord, but the universal application to which Christ is refin John 15, is to be abiding in Him, the True Vine, and bringing forth the fruit of theSpirit.
if any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and, 1 John 1:7 applies continuously - if we truly have come to t ' that our deeds be wrought in God. John 3:20, 21.
You and I are as far apart as the East is from the West. To you it is all about what you do. To me it is all about what God has already done. To me, you are one of those sitting on a fence with one foot on the side of law and the other on the side of grace.
No one will be saved by the works of the law and works, in this age of grace, do not prove faith in the work of God on the cross. It does just the opposite; it proves a lack of faith in God and shows faith is in what they do.
Again the false comparison. We are empowered by grace through faith to fulfill the commandments of God. No law breaker will ever enter the kingdom of God.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
We know we are truly in Him when we have the power to obey God. When we are filled to overflowing with love and presence of God then we know we are in Christ.
So much better than a man inspired grasping of a doctrinal position...no?
No argument there. But what needs to be understood is that the part of us that bears the guilt for lawbreaking is called the old man. And furthermore, the position this old man holds before God is that he is dead, having been crucified with Christ. As well, we through the new birth have a new man, a new spirit, who was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness (Eph.4:24). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We will not all sleep but we will all be changed, when He who began the work in us will complete it in the resurrection.
The opposite of being a lawbreaker is called being righteous. Luckily for us, our own righteousness is not taken into consideration. I am the righteousness of God IN CHRIST, " for Christ is the end of the law for righteousnes to all who believe" (Rom.10:4). It is one thing to say that no lawbreaker will inherit life. But the key to our liberty is found in the fact that by the works of the law, no flesh will ever be justified. We are justified for life by faith. Here is the proof:
Rom.3:19-24..." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witness by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (NKJ).
And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. (1John2:23, John 15:12,17)) The word "law" is not found anywhere in 1John. A commandment is not a law unless it is enforced. And we know that the enforcement of the law was taken by Jesus at Calvary. We are not under the enforcement of law. We will not be judged according to the law.
We know we are in Him by the Holy Spirit in us, who pours out His love in our hearts (Rom.5:5). I doubt anyone would argue that our behavior is important. However, we are not justified by this. Here is the key part that is the issue here. The fact is, no amount of obedience to God or love for others will ever qualify a person for being equal with the glory of God. We still all fall short. It would be arrogant to say the least, to claim otherwise. Therefore, even though we are exhorted to put on the new man and walk in righteousness, it is not expected that we will attain perfection or consistancy in this. So we are kept in good standing with God, not by our works but by our faith in Him and by our humility in understanding we cannot measure up to the standard that would save us through works. We are saved by grace. Period. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Do you boast in your obedience to law? Maybe to man, but not before God. Check out Luke 18:10-14.
I mainly agree again with what you say...although you are confusing some issues.
Your position does not take into account that it is the DOERS of the law that are justified not just the hearers and head nodders...
Jesus said...
Mat_12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
So you have not yet arrived at a perfect understanding of the gospel.
Grace is an empowerment...not just a forgiveness.
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
WE are held accountable for what we do through the old man....as well as what is done through the new man. You can't make a false balance and have only the good count.
This is a misquote. James said "doers of the word". However, by what degree is this sufficient? Does one need to have a perfect walk before the Lord? Nowhere in scripture do we find this.
Again, a misapplication. Jesus said "words". In Rom.10:9,10, this is confirmed in that we are saved by our faith and confession.
Grace may well lead to an empowerment. But why condemn another for his weak empowerment? Is this the job of the individual? No. If it were, then we would be saved by our own righteousness.
Around the mountain we go. Have you looked yet at the examples James gave in that context? He used Rahab the HARLOT for one. She showed she believed God's promise by following His instruction to help His messengers. No mention of her keeping any law. James also used Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, concluding that God could keep His promise by raising him up. No mention of law keeping there either. James was concerned for his fellow countrymen who claimed to have faith. His observance was that they were lacking in love for their brothers. He did not command them to keep the law to prove their faith. Do you, my friend take liberty with the passages you quote, to heap burdens upon your brothers?
Under the law, failure on any one point means that one becomes guilty of the whole law. This is not the case under grace. Even if one's works are mostly burned, he will suffer loss. However, , " he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" ( 1Cor.3:15).
Are you in submission to these truths? If a man's works are substandard is this a false balance as you say? Where do we find "false balance" in our covenant? Our accountablility is indeed real, but thanks to grace we are released from being condemned on the basis of the measure of our fruit.
As for the old man, he is dead. The accountablity in him has been dealt with at Calvary. How many times must one die for his sin? Dead is dead. We are already crucifed with Christ for sin. The old man will not inherit life. Tell us something we don't know. But why bring him back to life? Please refer to 1John 2:1. We have an advocate. This was God's idea, not mine.
I was quoting Paul...Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
We are called to this who are in Christ. You know the verses yourself....are we called to sin for Christ? John says if we sin we are of the devil and we have never known Christ. There are many verses of this type...all in you own bible. Do you choose to ignore this and still claim to follow the truth?
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
We have a weaker empowerment through a weaker faith. We are saved by faith are we not???
She was saved by her conduct....works if you will. But she didn't claim to be saved by her works...God proclaimed it. The problem lies in the fact that most people can't seem to tell the difference between God and themselves! Hmmm!!!
I am placing no burden other than what is written in the bible. The problem is when the many weed out the difficult verses because THEY deem them too hard...thereby short-circuiting any real work of God. The letter is supposed to kill so that the Spirit gives life. You are perhaps looking for the letter to provide life....but this is not according to God.
If you think that someone who comes back from a war with no arms or legs is saved...then I agree with you. People undr value what loss means.
Happy is he that does not condemn himself in what he allows.
Rom_14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Hi dragonfly,
The law I referred to is the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2), aka the law of righteousness (Rom 9:31). Some refer to this as the Mosaic law. Unfortunately others do split this law up in their argument for the necessity of keeping the commandments as proof of salvation.
Hi williemac,
I'd like to pick up a couple of things you said: 'A commandment is not a law unless it is enforced.... We will not be judged according to the law.'
Agreed.
We will be judged by a higher standard than that - the righteousness of Christ.
Did we keep our robes of righteousness laundered in His blood?
I'd like to pick up a couple of things you said: 'A commandment is not a law unless it is enforced.... We will not be judged according to the law.'
Agreed.
We will be judged by a higher standard than that - the righteousness of Christ.
Did we keep our robes of righteousness laundered in His blood?
Hi Epi,
Interesting to see you referred to 1John 3:24.
Are you referring to the commandments given in 1John 3:23 as the commandments we keep and not the 10 commandments as I had thought you were arguing for?
1John 3:23 "And this is His commandment; that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment" .
Ok. I didn't realize. However, this is even worse; Quoting Paul out of context. He went on to establish that no one ever met that criteria. The law says that the doers are justified. However, Paul was making that point, not to promote lawkeeping but to set up this point in 3:19. I have quoted it before. This is the context.." Now we know that whatever the law says , it says to those under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God. vs. 20...THEREFORE BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW NO FLESH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED IN HIS SIGHT, FOR BY THE LAW IS KNOWLEDGE OF SIN" . How is it you fail to see the point Paul was getting to from Rom.2:13? In that verse, He says the doers of the law shall be justified. But then he goes on to say that no one has succeeded, so no flesh shall actually accomplish justification by the law. These are not my words, They are written. One must understand Paul's intent with what he taught, rather than superimpose one's own intent, which you are doing.
Just whom is choosing to ignore things? I could ask this of you concerning the previous part of this reply.
Why don't we just follow that thought to two verses later......" Whover has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him, AND HE CANNOT SIN, because he has been born of God". You think you get others into trouble with the text. However, let me ask you...can you sin? Notice I didn't ask you if you do sin, I asked if you CAN sin. If so, you might want to rethink what John meant. As well, what on earth was he doing in ch.2:vs. 1? Did he forget what he said there when he quoted 3:6?
A person can have a weaker empowerment for a number of reasons. We are human. We have disfunctions. Some have been severely abused. Some are ill. Some have mental issues. etc. But does Jesus break a bended reed? Does He snuff out a smouldering wick? Maybe you wish.
Rahab was spared by God because she believed Him, and what she did proved it. Fast forward to this covenant. God says we are saved by grace and not of works. How do we show this? Do we do works for salvation? If so, we reveal our lack of faith.
I am doing no such thing. The letter refers to the law. The law kills. How is it that we are to recieve life so that we can keep the law for salvation? This is absolute insanity. Yet this is what you are peddling.
What is worse? Taking it to the level of loss of salvation is no better. That is error.
amen!
Hi haz,
You asked
This is my answer -
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
In reply originally, I wrote this (end p4)
I hope you will answer this.
Brother, I don't understand what would be wrong with the assumption 'it means either good behaviour/lifestyle and/or keeping the 10 commandments', as there is little in the exhortations being offered by James all the way through his letter to the scattered twelve tribes, which was not already expected of them as Israelites. That is his point! Now they have the power to bless God by obeying Him. Matthew 7:12 - 21; Acts 5:32. This is the obedience of faith. Romans 1:5
I had a long look through James before I answered your question. James makes many comparisons between what is right (which they know already) and how they are behaving. Then he basically pulls the rug from under their feet by saying that if they know what is the good to do, it is sin to not do that good. Is this a flawed argument to you?
Bear in mind also this verse, which I had occasion to quote elsewhere today:
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Hi haz,
In view of John Baptist's expectation of 'fruit worthy of repentance' to those who had been baptised in water for the remission of sins, and the fact that there is, according to Jesus, no reason to believe a tree is good unless it brings forth good fruit, Himself teaching that except we abide in Him we can 'do nothing', what other 'proof of salvation' do you find in scripture, which satisfies the better standard you believe God is looking for?
(I know we are saved by His faith, but shouldn't our lives show some fruit of salvation? Matt 5:16)
Hi williemac,
From your post to Ek,
What do you think Paul meant by Romans 8:4 - if not what it plainly states?
Hi haz,
I seem to have missed this:
Does this mean you, also, disagree with Paul's treatise in Romans 6 and 8?
You asked
This is my answer -
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
In reply originally, I wrote this (end p4)
I hope you will answer this.
Brother, I don't understand what would be wrong with the assumption 'it means either good behaviour/lifestyle and/or keeping the 10 commandments', as there is little in the exhortations being offered by James all the way through his letter to the scattered twelve tribes, which was not already expected of them as Israelites. That is his point! Now they have the power to bless God by obeying Him. Matthew 7:12 - 21; Acts 5:32. This is the obedience of faith. Romans 1:5
I had a long look through James before I answered your question. James makes many comparisons between what is right (which they know already) and how they are behaving. Then he basically pulls the rug from under their feet by saying that if they know what is the good to do, it is sin to not do that good. Is this a flawed argument to you?
Bear in mind also this verse, which I had occasion to quote elsewhere today:
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Hi haz,
In view of John Baptist's expectation of 'fruit worthy of repentance' to those who had been baptised in water for the remission of sins, and the fact that there is, according to Jesus, no reason to believe a tree is good unless it brings forth good fruit, Himself teaching that except we abide in Him we can 'do nothing', what other 'proof of salvation' do you find in scripture, which satisfies the better standard you believe God is looking for?
(I know we are saved by His faith, but shouldn't our lives show some fruit of salvation? Matt 5:16)
Hi williemac,
From your post to Ek,
What do you think Paul meant by Romans 8:4 - if not what it plainly states?
Hi haz,
I seem to have missed this:
Does this mean you, also, disagree with Paul's treatise in Romans 6 and 8?
Hi Haz and RichardBurger,
I was wondering if you consider the following works? If yes, what kind of works would you consider them?
1. "abiding in Christ" (John 15)
2. "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as the Spirit leads. (Rom_8:13)
3. Walking in holiness (without which no man shall see the Lord (Heb 12:14 )
4. renewing of your mind (Rom_12:2 )
5. Being "kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love" (Romans 12:10)
6. Abhoring that which is evil; and cleaving to that which is good. (Romans 12:9)
Thanks,
Axehead
I was wondering if you consider the following works? If yes, what kind of works would you consider them?
1. "abiding in Christ" (John 15)
2. "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as the Spirit leads. (Rom_8:13)
3. Walking in holiness (without which no man shall see the Lord
(Heb 12:14 ) 4. renewing of your mind (Rom_12:2 )
5. Being "kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love" (Romans 12:10)
6. Abhoring that which is evil; and cleaving to that which is good. (Romans 12:9)
Thanks,
Axehead
The 2 great commandments fulfill the whole law. Love God and love others as Jesus does.
You are incorrect as to your understanding of Paul's intent. It is backwards. The difference between the 2 seemingly contradictory statements is WHOM is doing the justifying. Look deeper into this.
A man cannot justify himself..either by his works OR BY HIS FAITH. The lesson is that self-justification has no place before God. God, however justifies us by faith AND by our works. THAT is the truth.
To whom much is given more is required. To whom less is given less is required. Paul said...woe is me if I don't preach the gospel. This is not a universal standard. To understand the rest you would have to understand the biblical distinction between holiness and righteousness...which few if any Christians seem to be able to understand. (due to the modern spin on the consumer gospel) If you wish I could go deeper into this.
This is wrong. Rahab never spoke to God. We show our faith by our actions when we are not directly confronted with holiness.
I have never said anything about a loss of salvation. This is your religious conditioning coming out. The ways of God go deeper than making men feel good about themselves.
Hi Haz and RichardBurger,
I was wondering if you consider the following works? If yes, what kind of works would you consider them?
1. "abiding in Christ" (John 15)
2. "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as the Spirit leads. (Rom_8:13)
3. Walking in holiness (without which no man shall see the Lord
4. renewing of your mind (Rom_12:2 )
5. Being "kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love" (Romans 12:10)
6. Abhoring that which is evil; and cleaving to that which is good. (Romans 12:9)
Thanks,
Axehead
Hi Axehead,
Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered "believe on him whom he has sent", John 6:29
Regarding that list you gave asking if I thought it was works, unfortunately I don't know how you define/understand each of these points you listed. There is much confusion in these forum discussions as often there is a different definition/understanding of topics. Until open discussion, freely offering definitions of points from scripture, are offered up front, then misunderstandings will frustrate us all.
BTW, are you from the same church as dragonfly and Episkopos?
Hi dragonfly.
I did answer your question about OT/NT earlier. Perhaps you missed it. Below again is the Phil 3 I answered it with along with 2Cor 3.
Phil 3:7-11
"Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."
2Cor 3:7-
"But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious."
As for James 4 the "good" verse 17 speaks of is to believe on Jesus. This is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
Note also James 4:4 speaking to those in spiritual adultery.
Also verses 7,8
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
This is a salvation call to these unsaved adulterers (being under works of the law, verse 11,12).
As you and Episkopos are from the same church can you please let us know which church that is?
Hi williemac,
Please see my note to you further up the page, as well as the following -
Yes I 'can' - meaning I am able to - sin.
That means - as I understand it - that John was intimating that even more, we can 'not sin', because we have seen Him.
Is this what you were getting at? If not, please say more of what you have in mind? Thanks.
You also said
This is why I asked how you read Romans 8:4.
Before you reply let me comment; I believe Paul's point separates between 'keeping the law' and 'fulfilling the righteousness of the law'.
Hello haz,
Thanks for your replies.
I really don't agree with your interpretation, in that he was writing to Christians. He was not suggesting that any were unsaved, nor that any were in idolatry. He was, rather, drawing their attention to their carnal thinking, in the same way Paul does especially to the Corinthians, and the Galatians. Note that before Paul goes into the detail with the Corinthians in his first epistle, he prefaces his remarks with:
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift;
This is not what you would write to a group of people who have not met the Lord, yet, is it?
All James is saying, is, it is 'good' to do the right thing, knowing that through the Holy Spirit they have power to do the thing they know is right.
Going back to my question here:
'Could you please note for me the key differences between the Old and the New Covenant? (No need to explain in detail. Bullet points okay.)'
I don't see how your verses from Phil 3 and 2 Cor 3 make the comparison which I'm after, namely, the key differences which the two covenants contain. I do acknowledge that your verses show that there is a difference in a general way. (I also acknowledge there are similarities.)
Can you elucidate further?
We are not talking about a denomination, (if that's what you are asking).
Hi Episkopos,
I would like to make the case for separating our love for those who do not know the Lord - which may result in our persecution - from our love for one another within the body of Christ.
Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
What do you think?
I feel John makes an especially powerful case for this in his first epistle, which is consistent with us being the body of Christ on earth.
Ephesians 4:16.
Please see my note to you further up the page, as well as the following -
Yes I 'can' - meaning I am able to - sin.
That means - as I understand it - that John was intimating that even more, we can 'not sin', because we have seen Him.
Is this what you were getting at? If not, please say more of what you have in mind? Thanks.
You also said
This is why I asked how you read Romans 8:4.
Before you reply let me comment; I believe Paul's point separates between 'keeping the law' and 'fulfilling the righteousness of the law'.
Hello haz,
Thanks for your replies.
I really don't agree with your interpretation, in that he was writing to Christians. He was not suggesting that any were unsaved, nor that any were in idolatry. He was, rather, drawing their attention to their carnal thinking, in the same way Paul does especially to the Corinthians, and the Galatians. Note that before Paul goes into the detail with the Corinthians in his first epistle, he prefaces his remarks with:
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift;
This is not what you would write to a group of people who have not met the Lord, yet, is it?
All James is saying, is, it is 'good' to do the right thing, knowing that through the Holy Spirit they have power to do the thing they know is right.
Going back to my question here:
'Could you please note for me the key differences between the Old and the New Covenant? (No need to explain in detail. Bullet points okay.)'
I don't see how your verses from Phil 3 and 2 Cor 3 make the comparison which I'm after, namely, the key differences which the two covenants contain. I do acknowledge that your verses show that there is a difference in a general way. (I also acknowledge there are similarities.)
Can you elucidate further?
We are not talking about a denomination, (if that's what you are asking).
Hi Episkopos,
I would like to make the case for separating our love for those who do not know the Lord - which may result in our persecution - from our love for one another within the body of Christ.
Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
What do you think?
I feel John makes an especially powerful case for this in his first epistle, which is consistent with us being the body of Christ on earth.
Ephesians 4:16.
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