False Views of Righteousness

[Axehead]

Yes, I would agree. The thief demonstrated, by his works (believing on Jesus, John 6:29), his faith. 'His faith is counted for righteousness', Rom 4:5. And this is what all believers have done.
Hence, Christians have ceased from sin as they abide in Christ.



Where we disagree is that you don't accept this until you see evidence by perfect behaviour (words and actions) in the physical. What I see is that the doctrine you follow is about seeking to be perfected by the flesh. You are not seeking righteousness by faith this way. Instead this is seeking to establish righteousness by works.

No, that is not true. Love believes all things. If someone says they love the Lord and have trusted in Him and received Him, I would definitely believe that.

I agree that out of the mouth there should not be blessing and cursing coming out. What comes out manifests what is within.

James 3:9-11
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Amen.

What you are missing is that the lip service blessing of God along with judging men as unrighteous sinners based on works of lifestyle (perfection by the flesh), is the mixing of grace and works gospel you follow. You cannot mix grace and works (Rom 11:6). This is being lukewarm (Rev 3:16). A fountain does not send forth both sweet water (grace) and bitter (works).

Believe on Jesus and your faith is counted for righteousness.

Well, yes, "Believe on Jesus and your faith is counted for righteousness." I agree. But we are talking about walking with the Lord and not turning away from Him and denying Him by our works. We are not talking about receiving Jesus.

Does your Bible say that there are those who teach a "form of godliness"? And should we keep company with them?
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Since Paul cannot see someone's heart it looks like Paul is making judgements on outward behavior. What do you make of that?

Paul was a bit more forceful in Titus in case anyone misunderstood what he was saying.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Then, Paul goes on to say that God wants to PURIFY us unto HIMSELF and make us zealous for good works. Of course these are not works of self-righteousness are they? God would not make His children zealous of those kind of works, would He?

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Where we disagree is that you don't accept this until you see evidence by perfect behaviour (words and actions) in the physical.

What you are saying, haz, is that you are in disagreement with Jesus Christ, as to whether a tree can be known by its fruit.

To everyone who was standing in the crowd when He spoke about it, there cannot have been one old greyhead who wasn't nodding and saying, 'That's right. I can tell whether my vine is doing okay when it brings forth bunches of grapes. And no, I don't look for grapes on a thorn tree.' But while they were nodding, the obvious analogy that a life which is rooted in evil can bring forth only corrupt fruit, was not lost on them. Just as it was not lost on them that a tree (life) which is rooted in goodness will bring forth good fruit. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 7:20.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

From small-time gardener to big-time farmer, everyone knows you get rid of a diseased tree, or one which bears no good fruit.

If a tree could mount its own defence, its best defence would be to start bearing good fruit. That would save it's life.

 

[Axehead]

Interesting that you would say that, dragonfly. It's just that simple isn't it?

I happen to have many fruit trees in my back yard and 2 of them (for 2 years) are not bearing any fruit. My physical eyes cannot see the sap inside them, but I can see there is no fruit. No manifestation of what they are suppose to bear because of what they are (Peach trees).

Therefore, I have decided they are coming down and will be kindling for an autumn fire. I will replace them.

Axehead

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi haz,



What you are saying, haz, is that you are in disagreement with Jesus Christ, as to whether a tree can be known by its fruit.

To everyone who was standing in the crowd when He spoke about it, there cannot have been one old greyhead who wasn't nodding and saying, 'That's right. I can tell whether my vine is doing okay when it brings forth bunches of grapes. And no, I don't look for grapes on a thorn tree.' But while they were nodding, the obvious analogy that a life which is rooted in evil can bring forth only corrupt fruit, was not lost on them. Just as it was not lost on them that a tree (life) which is rooted in goodness will bring forth good fruit. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 7:20.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

From small-time gardener to big-time farmer, everyone knows you get rid of a diseased tree, or one which bears no good fruit.

If a tree could mount its own defence, its best defence would be to start bearing good fruit. That would save it's life.

What would you consider to be person's "good fruit"?

 

[Axehead]

Jiggyfly,

I don't want to speak for dragonfly, but wouldn't you want to try and find that out from the Scriptures first, or is this a test for dragonfly and you already know?

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

Jiggyfly,

I don't want to speak for dragonfly, but wouldn't you want to try and find that out from the Scriptures first, or is this a test for dragonfly and you already know?

Axehead

Let's be honest here, I might need a little help in answering this question to jiggyfly's satisfaction, but I have some ideas. I have no idea if they are a standard response to the question, or, simply what I have gleaned from my own eating of good fruit.

Hi jiggyfly,

What would you consider to be person's "good fruit"?

That's an interesting question :) and I hope my answer is not going to frustrate you!

First of all, in the way your question is worded, there are two parts - the person, and the fruit. Jesus states we will 'know' the tree by its fruit.

Here is Mickelson's (Enhanced Strong's) for the word translated 'know' in Matt 7:20.

G1921 ἐπιγινώσκω epiginosko (ep-ig-in-oce'-ko) v.
1. to know upon some mark, i.e. recognize
2. (by implication) to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge
[from G1909 and G1097]
KJV: (ac-, have, take)know(-ledge, well), perceive
Root(s): G1909, G1097

I don't think we 'perceive' what kind of tree it is by its fruit. The picture is simpler than that. And yet within the tree itself, is the power of a life to bring forth fruit after its own kind. Genesis 1:11, 12. Its qualities differentiate it from other kinds of good fruit as well as from bad fruit.

First of all, the fruit of the Spirit is essential, Gal 5: 22, 23 '... love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance...'

This is good question, jiggyfly!

I am really having to choose my words carefully :), because I want to make a distinction between those aspects of the fruit of the Spirit where are borne with the least effort on the part of the bearer, (because God has already dealt with their heart in those areas), and those which He chooses to bring to maturity at a later date through testing circumstances. There could be a better year from some fruit to be produced, perhaps after some pruning?

Fruit must be edible. That means a certain maturity is implied, or, one spits it out straight away. Having eaten it, it must be nurturing. We have all heard of a 'good year' for a wine. I think it's similar in the way a believer has, from time to time, challenges and opportunities to bring forth a new wine, or a sweeter wine, or a better wine than previously was possible until they had been through a deeper inner process with the Lord. (You may think that is not 'fruit' but I think it is relevant to knowing what kind of tree is bearing what comes forth from its life.) Fruit which looks okay but when tested by eating it, cannot be ingested, must be suspected. And one might suspect fruit which is too uniform in appearance.

So, we are not looking at outward appearance only, but on the ability of another (objective) person to test whether the fruit produced is fit for consumption, by attempting to internalise the product. A worldly comparison might be, 'Would you buy it? Would you eat it?' In other words, it must be receiveable by the eater. The life of God being lived out in a believer must be accessible to the eater's needs. (Although I am going to show verses about the life of God in the Church, fruit of the Spirit is a prime indicator to unbelievers, of a 'real' Christian life.)

The following verses from 1 John 4 echo a good deal of what John records between vv 7 and 16, and the end of John 15

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another..... If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

One should not have to dig for it or provoke it, for fruit to manifest in a natural way. If there were any hindrances to good fruit being born, they have all been taken care of by the time the fruit actually appears and is ready to harvest.

There are different kinds of fruit in nature. Some have all their colour and flavour on the surface, others you have to peel, others you have to take out the seed(s), others you eat the seeds; some are encased in a hard shell, some are protected by spikes, or inedible flesh, making a little work for the eater - but that's okay. As a picture of the character of Christ coming forth from many branches, much diversity from His many members is to be expected.

I have heard the references to fruit in John 15:2 (more), 5 (much), 16 (that may remain), solely related to soul-winning, but there really is no hint that souls are the only kind of fruit Jesus has in mind, although we know He told Peter and Andrew He would make them fishers of men, and there is, of course, the 'great commission'; but, there are other verses such as Ephesians - Eph 4:16 - Romans 12, 1 Cor 12, 13, 14 and Col 3 (and many, many more in the NT), where bearing all kinds of fruit from abiding in Christ is beneficial to the members of His whole body.

This is more than about the character of the believer - although that is implicit in bearing fruit of the Spirit consistently - but about an abundance of evidence that the source of the life being manifested by the believer, is the life of Christ. Rev 22:1, 2.

Walking in the Spirit should be the inevitable outcome of John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you....'

John 15:5 '... He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done to you. [ie responsive relationship]

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Not only the Holy Spirit's testimony, but the testimony of the person filled with that Spirit, will be in agreement with each other.

I do not plan to talk about exercising the gifts of Holy Spirit, except to mention that they are also a kind of fruit of resurrection life.

There is a straightening which happens to the believer who has been grafted into Christ's death. There is no room for manoeuvre apart from to yield to the power of His life as it seeks to transforms us by its ability to swallow up all that death which we died in Him.


Your comments, jiggyfly, are awaited with keen anticipation.

 

[Axehead]

What would you consider to be person's "good fruit"?

My short answer regarding fruit is not so much what we do but what we are becoming, "coming to WHOLENESS in Christ and being able to love as He loved". Christ's love was evident for all to see.

2Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I thought dragonfly brought out many important nuances about fruit, too.


Axehead

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead, jiggyfly and dragonfly,

You shall know them by their fruit is referring to Christ in us. Jesus the firstfruits. It is Christ in us, the firstfruit, that makes us holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10;14), righteous and without sin (John 8:36, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9).


But, regarding Axehead's quote of 2Tim 3:5 'having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof' and Titus 1:16 'they profess to know God, but in works they deny Him', these are relevant scriptures for this false 'imparted' righteousness doctrine.

Having the form of godliness is speaking of those who profess to know God but they deny the power thereof (the gospel of Christ, Rom 1:16, 1Cor 1:18,24).

How do they deny Him?
Through false doctrines such as that of imparted righteousness. This is being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3) as it's adherents preach that unless perfect behavior/obedience in consistently maintained in thought, word, deed then sin remains and they are lost. This is a rejection of the finished work of the cross, treading the Son of God under foot and counting the blood of the covnenant an unholy thing, (Heb 10:26-29) . This is rejecting the sanctification we have through Christ's one offering. This is saying that more is required of us than what the thief on the cross experienced. It is unbelief.

Rom 4:5 tells us that our faith is counted for righteousness. We are blessed in that God imputes righteousness without works (Rom 4:6).

 

[IanLC]

It is Christ Jesus who justifies those saved by His redeemptive work and He alone can declare them righteous and justified before God the Father by His grace through the believer's faith(justification and instantaneous/initial sanctification). After justification Jesus allows the Holy Spirit to continue the work He started with justification. The Holy Spirit progressively sanctifies the believer through the Word of God and His purging fire (progressive sanctification). As we are striving and growing in maturity God progresses us into relative holiness were He perfects holiness ins us (2 Corinthians 7:1). For Holiness is what God demands (Hebrews 12:14) and you will not go to heaven with out it. Then in some cases the Holy Spirit entirley sanctifies yet this is still relative for we all sin! We are not fully made righteous and sanctified until we are resurrected with Our Lord Jesus Christ at His Glorious return!

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi Axehead, jiggyfly and dragonfly,

You shall know them by their fruit is referring to Christ in us. Jesus the firstfruits. It is Christ in us, the firstfruit, that makes us holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10;14), righteous and without sin (John 8:36, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9).


But, regarding Axehead's quote of 2Tim 3:5 'having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof' and Titus 1:16 'they profess to know God, but in works they deny Him', these are relevant scriptures for this false 'imparted' righteousness doctrine.

Having the form of godliness is speaking of those who profess to know God but they deny the power thereof (the gospel of Christ, Rom 1:16, 1Cor 1:18,24).

How do they deny Him?
Through false doctrines such as that of imparted righteousness. This is being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3) as it's adherents preach that unless perfect behavior/obedience in consistently maintained in thought, word, deed then sin remains and they are lost. This is a rejection of the finished work of the cross, treading the Son of God under foot and counting the blood of the covnenant an unholy thing, (Heb 10:26-29) . This is rejecting the sanctification we have through Christ's one offering. This is saying that more is required of us than what the thief on the cross experienced. It is unbelief.

Rom 4:5 tells us that our faith is counted for righteousness. We are blessed in that God imputes righteousness without works (Rom 4:6).

Thank you for clarifying that Haz. I agree the fruit is not ours but the Lord's.

 

[Episkopos]

Thank you for clarifying that Haz. I agree the fruit is not ours but the Lord's.

While Jesus Christ is the source of the fruit...this fruit is produced in us and through us. This fruit is exhibited in a holy life.

 

[Axehead]

Thank you for clarifying that Haz. I agree the fruit is not ours but the Lord's.

Hi Jiggyfly,

We have never said the "fruit" is ours. Haz is disputing that when God delivers us from sin and purifies our hearts that it is not God doing it, but rather man and Haz is characterizing this work of God in man as self-righteousness.

Jiggyfly, are you also characterizing God's work in man to deliver him from sin and purify his heart as a self-righteous work of man?

Axehead

While Jesus Christ is the source of the fruit...this fruit is produced in us and through us. This fruit is exhibited in a holy life.

Amen! And the fruit will not be produced in us if we don't cooperate (abide in Christ) and surrender our wills to His will. What that means is that our desires become His desires. We love what He loves and want what He wants.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Jiggyfly,

We have never said the "fruit" is ours. Haz is disputing that when God delivers us from sin and purifies our hearts that it is not God doing it, but rather man and Haz is characterizing this work of God in man as self-righteousness.

Jiggyfly, are you also characterizing God's work in man to deliver him from sin and purify his heart as a self-righteous work of man?

Axehead



Amen! And the fruit will not be produced in us if we don't cooperate (abide in Christ) and surrender our wills to His will. What that means is that our desires become His desires. We love what He loves and want what He wants.

Axehead

..

...and hate what He hates!

 

[Axehead]

..

...and hate what He hates!

That is a very important distinction, Episkopos. Not only are we to love what He loves but hate what He hates. And God does hate many things!

He hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans (twice He says this). There are definitely "Deeds" that He HATES. But there are also "imaginations of the heart" that He hates, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and deeds are committed.

The deeds that God loves are the ones that are "wrought" in Him not the deeds wrought in the counterfeit "father".

We have always been talking about "deeds wrought in God", but many fight this truth.

John 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

To be sure, there are deed wrought in the counterfeit "father", too. And his deeds can look very, very good and religious.
John 8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

John's letter of Jesus' words to the churches in Revelation are about what deeds He loves and what deeds He hates.

Jude 1:15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Do you understand that the reference to Christ as the firstfruit, is in relation to His resurrection from among the dead? 1 Cor 15:20, 21, 22, 23.

Please bear these other verses in mind when considering the claim you are making for yourself.

Rom 6:3, 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away: 25 But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached to you.

John 1:12, 13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.... 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain. 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[haz]

Hi dragonfly,

Rom 6:3,5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

How do you not serve sin any longer?
We remain in Christ, believing God's promise.
In Christ we are righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin.
This is not judged on whether we have maintained consistent perfect behavior in this life.
Instead, it is determined on whether we continue believing on Jesus as Lord. The savior of our soul.

But your 'imparted' righteousness doctrine says that in spite of Christ's offering we are not righteous, holy, perfect, sanctified and without sin until we see evidence of it being consistently maintained in our lifestyle. Until then a believer is in sin and not abiding in Christ, under your doctrine.

In effect the 'imparted' righteousness doctrine says that Christ's one offering did not sanctify us immediately. You had indicated in an earlier post however, that the dying, sick, etc are excused from going through the process of 'sanctification' so they are sanctified immediately. BUT, this is not supported in scripture.

Why would anyone think that Christ's offering on the cross was not sufficient to sanctify us immediately? And in addition, the claim that one is not abiding in Christ until perfect behavior is consistently maintained as evidence, indicates that should anyone fail to achieve this perfection then they are lost.

The 'imparted' righteousness doctrine is unbelief, denying the gospel of Christ. It is seeking to be perfected by the flesh, but under a different label.

As for lifestyle, many Christians can testify of how their behavior improves as they grow in Christ. Very similar to what you and your friends speak of. But, we differ in that you see it as the necessary evidence of salvation whilst others here believe God's promise, obeying the will of God, being sanctified by Christ's one offering (and abstaining from spiritual fornication).

 

[Axehead]

Haz, do I have to abstain from physical fornication if I name the name of Christ as my Lord?

Simple question.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Hi dragonfly,

Rom 6:3,5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also of resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

How do you not serve sin any longer?
We remain in Christ, believing God's promise.
In Christ we are righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin.
This is not judged on whether we have maintained consistent perfect behavior in this life.
Instead, it is determined on whether we continue believing on Jesus as Lord. The savior of our soul.

But your 'imparted' righteousness doctrine says that in spite of Christ's offering we are not righteous, holy, perfect, sanctified and without sin until we see evidence of it being consistently maintained in our lifestyle. Until then a believer is in sin and not abiding in Christ, under your doctrine.

In effect the 'imparted' righteousness doctrine says that Christ's one offering did not sanctify us immediately. You had indicated in an earlier post however, that the dying, sick, etc are excused from going through the process of 'sanctification' so they are sanctified immediately. BUT, this is not supported in scripture.

Why would anyone think that Christ's offering on the cross was not sufficient to sanctify us immediately? And in addition, the claim that one is not abiding in Christ until perfect behavior is consistently maintained as evidence, indicates that should anyone fail to achieve this perfection then they are lost.

The 'imparted' righteousness doctrine is unbelief, denying the gospel of Christ. It is seeking to be perfected by the flesh, but under a different label.

As for lifestyle, many Christians can testify of how their behavior improves as they grow in Christ. Very similar to what you and your friends speak of. But, we differ in that you see it as the necessary evidence of salvation whilst others here believe God's promise, obeying the will of God, being sanctified by Christ's one offering (and abstaining from spiritual fornication).

The thing you seem to be misunderstanding about salvation is that it is not a theory. God through Christ Jesus has made it possible for us to have imputed to us His righteousness by faith, so that He can give us His Holy Spirit for the sole purpose of us ceasing from sin and in every practical way living our lives according to His will and His design.

We should experience not only a genuine change of heart towards God and the interests of other people, but the new spirit in us should lead us to behave differently, because we have turned away from sin and the world. This is what we are talking about, and, the power which God gives us for daily living, through fellowship with Him in the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure the phrase 'imparted righteousness', (a theological term), is necessary. We may be better to stay with scripture and call it being partakers of the divine nature. Whatever we call it, it is enjoyed only by abiding in Christ, and being yielded fully to His commands and the leadings of the Holy Spirit to obey our Father's will. At no time does the Holy Spirit become ours to take away and use for our own schemes. He is given to us to enable us to be functional as sons of God. And as sons of God, we cannot be at one with sin, or the world's standards, except we step out of fellowship with God.

How many times we can choose not to do His will before He gives us over to a reprobate mind, or, to believe a lie because our conscience is so seared (by ignoring it), is judged by God. All I can do is warn against it.

I do believe in instant sanctification, but that condition has to be maintained by resting in Christ, and dealing with the dirt of the world on a daily basis. Jesus said if we are clean, then only our feet need to be washed. But... our feet do need to be washed. If we don't wash them, we are no longer clean. (This is not rocket science.) And if we do not cease from sins which pollute our souls and spirits in a deeper way (than getting our feet dirty in the world), then - if we want God to continue to take our salvation seriously - we have to figure out how to get victory over those sins. He is watching, as a refiner sits by the refining pot, ready to skim off the impurities which surface as we go through the fires of purification which He has ordained for our benefit.

1 Peter 1:3 - 9, Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again to a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found to praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith - the salvation of [your] souls.... 13 -23 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which has called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. [ And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.


Mickelson's (Enhanced Strong's)

(not) fashioning (yourselves) (= being not conformed - Romans 12:2)

G4964 συσχημaτίζω suschematizo (soos-khay-mat-id'-zo) v.
1. to fashion alike, i.e. conform to the same pattern (figuratively)
[from G4862 and a derivative of G4976]
KJV: conform to, fashion self according to
Root(s): G4862, G4976


Romans 12:22 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,

that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

​

(Young) Leviticus 19:2 `Speak to all the company of the sons of Israel, and thou hast said to them,

Ye are holy, for holy [am] I, Jehovah, your God. ​

1 Peter 2:5 and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up

spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.​

Instant sanctification lasts as long as we abide in Christ as a branch which does not depart from its tree (of life) trunk. In so saying, I do not deny the necessity of a further purification process that we may be changed from glory to glory as we go from faith to faith. Romans 1:17, Habakkuk 2:4, 2 Corinthians 3:16 - 18.

 

[Axehead]

Hi haz,



The thing you seem to be misunderstanding about salvation is that it is not a theory. God through Christ Jesus has made it possible for us to have imputed to us His righteousness by faith, so that He can give us His Holy Spirit for the sole purpose of us ceasing from sin and in every practical way living our lives according to His will and His design.

We should experience not only a genuine change of heart towards God and the interests of other people, but the new spirit in us should lead us to behave differently, because we have turned away from sin and the world. This is what we are talking about, and, the power which God gives us for daily living, through fellowship with Him in the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure the phrase 'imparted righteousness', (a theological term), is necessary. We may be better to stay with scripture and call it being partakers of the divine nature. Whatever we call it, it is enjoyed only by abiding in Christ, and being yielded fully to His commands and the leadings of the Holy Spirit to obey our Father's will. At no time does the Holy Spirit become ours to take away and use for our own schemes. He is given to us to enable us to be functional as sons of God. And as sons of God, we cannot be at one with sin, or the world's standards, except we step out of fellowship with God.

How many times we can choose not to do His will before He gives us over to a reprobate mind, or, to believe a lie because our conscience is so seared (by ignoring it), is judged by God. All I can do is warn against it.

I do believe in instant sanctification, but that condition has to be maintained by resting in Christ, and dealing with the dirt of the world on a daily basis. Jesus said if we are clean, then only our feet need to be washed. But... our feet do need to be washed. If we don't wash them, we are no longer clean. (This is not rocket science.) And if we do not cease from sins which pollute our souls and spirits in a deeper way (than getting our feet dirty in the world), then - if we want God to continue to take our salvation seriously - we have to figure out how to get victory over those sins. He is watching, as a refiner sits by the refining pot, ready to skim off the impurities which surface as we go through the fires of purification which He has ordained for our benefit.

1 Peter 1:3 - 9, Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again to a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found to praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith - the salvation of [your] souls.... 13 -23 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which has called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. [ And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.


Mickelson's (Enhanced Strong's)

(not) fashioning (yourselves) (= being not conformed - Romans 12:2)

G4964 συσχημaτίζω suschematizo (soos-khay-mat-id'-zo) v.
1. to fashion alike, i.e. conform to the same pattern (figuratively)
[from G4862 and a derivative of G4976]
KJV: conform to, fashion self according to
Root(s): G4862, G4976


Romans 12:22 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,

that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. ​

(Young) Leviticus 19:2 `Speak to all the company of the sons of Israel, and thou hast said to them,

Ye are holy, for holy [am] I, Jehovah, your God. ​

1 Peter 2:5 and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up

spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.​

Instant sanctification lasts as long as we abide in Christ as a branch which does not depart from its tree (of life) trunk. In so saying, I do not deny the necessity of a further purification process that we may be changed from glory to glory as we go from faith to faith. Romans 1:17, Habakkuk 2:4, 2 Corinthians 3:16 - 18.

Beautiful post and well written!

The Lord's Church is not a big playground with sandboxes filled with babies crawling and cooing in the sand.

Axehead

 

[haz]

Haz, do I have to abstain from physical fornication if I name the name of Christ as my Lord?

Simple question.

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

1Thess 4:3 says;
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

The fornication spoken of here is spiritual fornication. This is denying the gospel and establishing righteousness by works instead of by faith.

As for physical fornication, this has no more affect on your salvation than the lifestyle of the thief on the cross had or the other actions/thoughts/words we fail at in this life, providing we continue to believe on Jesus.

Should we do any wrong/selfish acts we won't profit by it. God disciplines us.

Of course we still do see many in churches doing wrong. Even we all here on this forum (except whitestone) admit that our behavior is not continuously perfect. Is one of these wrong/selfish actions or thoughts we fail with worse than another? In regards to affecting our salvation...No.

And should someone deceive themsleves into thinking their wrong behavior is right, this would no doubt hinder their growth in Christ. Adultery (for example Mark 10:11,12) is just as common amongst Christians as non-Christians. Often it is even justified just the same as the world does. But those indulging in such behavior will not profit by it.

God is working in each of our lives where ever we are at. We all have our own individual circumstances and handicaps, etc. Within the Christian community we see various people. Some receive the word, endure for a while and then when tribulations etc occur they turn away. Others receive the word but the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches chokes the word and they become unfruitful (without Christ). And then others receive the word and it bears fruit in them, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty (Matt 13:19-23).

Ultimately it is those who through their faith are counted righteous (Rom 4:5).

But works of being perfected by the flesh is the spiritual fornication we need to abstain from.

I do believe in instant sanctification, but that condition has to be maintained by resting in Christ, and dealing with the dirt of the world on a daily basis. Jesus said if we are clean, then only our feet need to be washed. But... our feet do need to be washed. If we don't wash them, we are no longer clean. (This is not rocket science.) And if we do not cease from sins which pollute our souls and spirits in a deeper way (than getting our feet dirty in the world), then - if we want God to continue to take our salvation seriously - we have to figure out how to get victory over those sins. He is watching, as a refiner sits by the refining pot, ready to skim off the impurities which surface as we go through the fires of purification which He has ordained for our benefit.

Hi dragonfly,

Those in Christ have ceased from sin (John 8: 36, 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9).

But your doctrone says Christians ' have to figure out how to get victory over those sins' or else we're lost.

But, Jesus did that on the cross for us, if we believe God's promise.

BTW, what has washing our feet got to do with sin?