False Views of Righteousness

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

1Thess 4:3 says;
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

The fornication spoken of here is spiritual fornication. This is denying the gospel and establishing righteousness by works instead of by faith.

As for physical fornication, this has no more affect on your salvation than the lifestyle of the thief on the cross had or the other actions/thoughts/words we fail at in this life, providing we continue to believe on Jesus.

You said, "the lifestyle the thief on the cross had."

Obviously, he could still not engage in them, but are you saying that if he was set free, he could continue to engage in theft and it would have no effect on his salvation? How would the thief know within himself that there was a change, a deliverance from God that has taken place? Forget about others, what about the thief himself. Since the NT says that ungodly deeds will be punished, how will the thief know that his faith and life in Christ Jesus is genuine? How will He know that Christ's power is genuine?

Should we do any wrong/selfish acts we won't profit by it. God disciplines us.

Why does God discipline us if it is ok to physically fornicate? Why would He discipline us if we still get to go to heaven no matter how much fornication we do? That doesn't seem fair.

Of course we still do see many in churches doing wrong. Even we all here on this forum (except whitestone) admit that our behavior is not continuously perfect. Is one of these wrong/selfish actions or thoughts we fail with worse than another? In regards to affecting our salvation...No.

And should someone deceive themsleves into thinking their wrong behavior is right,

Hold all the trains!!!! Did you just say that wrong behavior is not right??

[quote]this would no doubt hinder their growth in Christ. [/quote]

Hold all the trains, again!!! Are you implying that we are suppose to grow in Christ? What does this "growth" look like Haz?

Adultery (for example Mark 10:11,12) is just as common amongst Christians as non-Christians. Often it is even justified just the same as the world does. But those indulging in such behavior will not profit by it.

Golly Haz, if Christians and non-Christians are committing adultery, how will the Lord be able to tell them apart?

God is working in each of our lives where ever we are at. We all have our own individual circumstances and handicaps, etc. Within the Christian community we see various people. Some receive the word, endure for a while and then when tribulations etc occur they turn away. Others receive the word but the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches chokes the word and they become unfruitful (without Christ). And then others receive the word and it bears fruit in them, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty (Matt 13:19-23).

Haz, you have given me a triple surprise tonight. Did you just say we are suppose to be fruitful in Christ?

Ultimately it is those who through their faith are counted righteous (Rom 4:5).

But works of being perfected by the flesh is the spiritual fornication we need to abstain from.

Oh, I had such great hope, but now it seems you wasted all that writing to end with "live anyway you want to, you may not be fruitful, your growth in Christ will be hindered by your wrong behavior and you may get disciplined, but as long as you have faith that someone named Jesus Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago, you will be escorted on a red carpet right through the pearly gates of heaven to be welcomed by a big hug from Jesus Christ even thought you never abided in Him for 1 minute."

Axehead

 

[haz]

You said, "the lifestyle the thief on the cross had."

Obviously, he could still not engage in them, but are you saying that if he was set free, he could continue to engage in theft and it would have no effect on his salvation? How would the thief know within himself that there was a change, a deliverance from God that has taken place? Forget about others, what about the thief himself. Since the NT says that ungodly deeds will be punished, how will the thief know that his faith and life in Christ Jesus is genuine? How will He know that Christ's power is genuine?

This is where our gospels differ. You see ungodly as referring to imperfect behavior/lifestyle whereas I see ungodly as being without Christ.
What is godliness?
1Tim 3:16
great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You ask how do we know if the power is genuine?
1Cor 2:5
your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

But you are looking for evidence of perfect behavior in the physical (being perfected by the flesh) and yet none of you (not even whitestone) have achieved this. According to what Epi said, this means you are not abiding in Christ. But, in reality it means unbelief in the finished work of the cross.

And what is the power of God?
Rom 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;

It is sin of unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) that the world is convicted of. The thief on the cross believed on Jesus and that day he was with Jesus in paradise.

You obsess over imperfect behavior as a gauge of one's salvation whilst ignoring that it is spiritual fornication (unbelief, which is seeking to be perfected by the flesh) which we are to abstain from.

Why does God discipline us if it is ok to physically fornicate? Why would He discipline us if we still get to go to heaven no matter how much fornication we do? That doesn't seem fair.

No one said it's ok to physically fornicate.
From what you have said I see your gospel condemns you and your friends. None of you are perfect in behavior, hence you're lost. Or are you saying that it depends on how excessive the wrong behavior is? Epi has indicated it must be perfect behavior.

Oh, I had such great hope, but now it seems you wasted all that writing to end with "live anyway you want to, you may not be fruitful, your growth in Christ will be hindered by your wrong behavior and you may get disciplined, but as long as you have faith that someone named Jesus Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago, you will be escorted on a red carpet right through the pearly gates of heaven to be welcomed by a big hug from Jesus Christ even thought you never abided in Him for 1 minute."

Axehead

Again, it's our gospels that differ.
You and your friends do not have perfect behavior. Under your gospel you stand condemned as your lifestyle is evidence that you are not abiding in Christ.
Christians also do not have perfect behavior. However we believe on Jesus and in believing God's promise/obeying His will, our faith is counted as righteousness. We are thus holy, sanctified, perfected and ceased from sin.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi Jiggyfly,

We have never said the "fruit" is ours. Haz is disputing that when God delivers us from sin and purifies our hearts that it is not God doing it, but rather man and Haz is characterizing this work of God in man as self-righteousness.

Jiggyfly, are you also characterizing God's work in man to deliver him from sin and purify his heart as a self-righteous work of man?

Axehead

Absolutely not! But neither do I base my justification/righteousness on the abilities and actions of my flesh, instead it is based on the finished work of Christ's cross to satisfy God. I rest in Father's satisfaction of His Son's death at the cross to give me right standing with Himself.

 

[Axehead]

Absolutely not! But neither do I base my justification/righteousness on the abilities and actions of my flesh, instead it is based on the finished work of Christ's cross to satisfy God. I rest in Father's satisfaction of His Son's death at the cross to give me right standing with Himself.

Is that a Red Herring? Who is basing "justification/righteousness on the abilities and actions of the flesh?"

I think I missed that one somewhere.

Axehead

This is where our gospels differ. You see ungodly as referring to imperfect behavior/lifestyle whereas I see ungodly as being without Christ.

No Haz. I see ungodly exactly as the Scripture denotes it. You are now saying that as long as one is "with Christ" instead of "without Christ", that they in no way can be ungodly. Can you please define what "with Christ" means to you?

What is godliness?
1Tim 3:16
great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And God is manifest in our fleshly body now by His Spirit, correct?

1. How was He manifest in Christ's flesh?
2. How is He manifest in our flesh?

You ask how do we know if the power is genuine?
1Cor 2:5
your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

But you are looking for evidence of perfect behavior in the physical (being perfected by the flesh) and yet none of you (not even whitestone) have achieved this. According to what Epi said, this means you are not abiding in Christ. But, in reality it means unbelief in the finished work of the cross.

I know this is going to come as a surprise to you, but God is the one that is looking for fruit and godliness and righteousness and holiness in our lives.

You obsess over imperfect behavior as a gauge of one's salvation whilst ignoring that it is spiritual fornication (unbelief, which is seeking to be perfected by the flesh) which we are to abstain from.

I am not fighting at all. I am seeking to present the truth that just because we are "In Jesus" does not give us carte blanche privilege to habitually engage in ungodly acts yet rest in the assurance that we are SAFE. You on the other hand are fighting to get this belief across. You can only present your case by giving a small subset of scriptures taken out of context. Scriptures solely about believing but you ignore all the scriptures about wrath and judgement on the disobedient (which were written to Christians). You are telling people, "Peace, Peace", when there is no peace. And then sudden destruction will come on them.

No one said it's ok to physically fornicate.

Why isn't it ok to physically fornicate? I thought you said spiritual fornication is what God hates.

From what you have said I see your gospel condemns you and your friends. None of you are perfect in behavior, hence you're lost. Or are you saying that it depends on how excessive the wrong behavior is? Epi has indicated it must be perfect behavior.

You are obsessed with quantifying behavior but we are talking about heart attitudes and examining oneself to see if Christ is indeed in us unless we are reprobate.


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

How do you prove your own selves?

2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

How would we measure if Paul or anyone else is not a reprobate.

2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil...

Again, it's our gospels that differ.

We sure do my friend. We have never disputed that.

You and your friends do not have perfect behavior. Under your gospel you stand condemned as your lifestyle is evidence that you are not abiding in Christ. Christians also do not have perfect behavior. However we believe on Jesus and in believing God's promise/obeying His will, our faith is counted as righteousness. We are thus holy, sanctified, perfected and ceased from sin.

I am not condemning anyone that does not have perfect behavior. I have always been talking about what the Life of God in us produces and the heart attitudes that we are to have and the heart attitudes that we are not to have (repent of). I have written about the Power of God setting us free from sin where we now have a choice. We can choose not to sin and this is God's desire for us. I have spoken about what abiding in God is and how we know if we are abiding in Him and why it is not a good idea to just give the Lord lip service but have our heart far from Him. I have mentioned that true faith has "legs". The true faith is not an empty confession in Jesus Christ and then we get to continue living our life as we always have. I also mentioned that receiving Christ's life, means that we give him ours. There is a cost and the scriptures speak plainly about this.

You just added something I never saw. Obeying His will. I don't think I ever saw you talk about obedience. Can you tell me what "obeying His will" entails? Please don't tell me it just means "believe", because surely there is more to God's will spelled out in the NT for us.

All the best,
Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

You ask how do we know if the power is genuine?
1Cor 2:5
your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

If you read the preceding verses, particularly verse 2, you'll see that the power of God comes from abiding in Christ crucified. Only from that beginning can the power of Christ's life begin to manifest in all our doings.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does not, to him it is sin.


We could just as easily say, 'to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is unbelief'.


Do you know that 'the children of wrath' in Eph 2:2 and 3, who walk 'according to the prince of the power of the air.... fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind', are by translation also 'the children of unbelief'?

 

[jiggyfly]

Is that a Red Herring? Who is basing "justification/righteousness on the abilities and actions of the flesh?"

I think I missed that one somewhere.

Yeah you probably overlooked it, read back over the thread, maybe you will see it. :)

 

[haz]

No Haz. I see ungodly exactly as the Scripture denotes it. You are now saying that as long as one is "with Christ" instead of "without Christ", that they in no way can be ungodly. Can you please define what "with Christ" means to you?

Being crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6
I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20.
If the root is holy, so are the branches, Rom 11:6
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3

And God is manifest in our fleshly body now by His Spirit, correct?

1. How was He manifest in Christ's flesh?
2. How is He manifest in our flesh?

I know this is going to come as a surprise to you, but God is the one that is looking for fruit and godliness and righteousness and holiness in our lives.

And this is through believing God's promise that whosoever should believe on Jesus will have everlasting life. See above how we are godly.

I am not fighting at all. I am seeking to present the truth that just because we are "In Jesus" does not give us carte blanche privilege to habitually engage in ungodly acts yet rest in the assurance that we are SAFE. You on the other hand are fighting to get this belief across. You can only present your case by giving a small subset of scriptures taken out of context. Scriptures solely about believing but you ignore all the scriptures about wrath and judgement on the disobedient (which were written to Christians). You are telling people, "Peace, Peace", when there is no peace. And then sudden destruction will come on them.

Why isn't it ok to physically fornicate? I thought you said spiritual fornication is what God hates.


You are obsessed with quantifying behavior but we are talking about heart attitudes and examining oneself to see if Christ is indeed in us unless we are reprobate.


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

How do you prove your own selves?

2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

How would we measure if Paul or anyone else is not a reprobate.

2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil...

Aside from the truth that the scripture you quote is to be spiritually discerned, I'm still at a loss as to what you actually claim about lifestyle. The likes of Epi claims we need perfect behavior in thought, word, deed, BUT you speak in this post of 'habitual' behavior instead of perfect behavior here. Do you differ from Epi about perfect behavior being required as evidence of salvation? If so then what determines the 'habitual' levels of wrong you speak about?

I am not condemning anyone that does not have perfect behavior. I have always been talking about what the Life of God in us produces and the heart attitudes that we are to have and the heart attitudes that we are not to have (repent of). I have written about the Power of God setting us free from sin where we now have a choice. We can choose not to sin and this is God's desire for us. I have spoken about what abiding in God is and how we know if we are abiding in Him and why it is not a good idea to just give the Lord lip service but have our heart far from Him. I have mentioned that true faith has "legs". The true faith is not an empty confession in Jesus Christ and then we get to continue living our life as we always have. I also mentioned that receiving Christ's life, means that we give him ours. There is a cost and the scriptures speak plainly about this.

You just added something I never saw. Obeying His will. I don't think I ever saw you talk about obedience. Can you tell me what "obeying His will" entails? Please don't tell me it just means "believe", because surely there is more to God's will spelled out in the NT for us.

All the best,
Axehead

I have spoke of obeying God's will several times before. Remeber these references?
Eph 5:17
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

It's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of (John 16:9).
Why are you then so eager to preach judgement and condemnation over imperfect lifestyle/behavior? Even you and your friends stand condemned then.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does not, to him it is sin.


We could just as easily say, 'to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is unbelief'.


Do you know that 'the children of wrath' in Eph 2:2 and 3, who walk 'according to the prince of the power of the air.... fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind', are by translation also 'the children of unbelief'?

Hi dragonfly,

We spoke on James 4:17 before and differ in understanding of it.

You assume to 'do good' is referring to behavior, but I understand it to refer to believing the gospel as doing good.
Reading James 4:4 we see it addresses (spiritual) adulterers.
James 4:7,8 is a salvation call to these spiritual adulterers.
James 4:11,12 describes these spiritual adulterers as setting themselves up as a judge to judge others. In otherwords they were following a doctrine of being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3). These spiritual adulterers were in unbelief.

 

[Axehead]

Yeah you probably overlooked it, read back over the thread, maybe you will see it. :)

Oh, thanks a lot. :wacko:

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Hi Axehead, dragonfly and Epi,

The thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was saved, righteous, holy, sanctified and perfected without any evidence of this in the physical. This contradicts your doctrine, in spite of your efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth. Your arguments that had he lived on there would have been perfect righteous behavior, and that only the dying, disabled and sick are excused by God from showing evidence of perfect righteous behavior, is unsupported in scripture.

The thief on the cross demonstrates how righteousness is 'imputed' apart from works (Rom 4:6).
The doctrine you guys follow contradicts this, claiming that those of us who are not excused from works of evidence of perfect righteous behavior face condemnation/death should we fail to achieve and maintain it consistently.

There is a false view of righteousness, and this is the one that speaks of 'imparted' righteousness in the physical. This false view of righteousness is similar to the law of sin and death, but it's under a different label. Both the law of sin and death and the 'imparted' righteousness doctrine demand perfect continual obedience as proof of righteousness in the physical or condemnation/death is the result (as Epi has indicated).

But, instead, we see there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1, John 3:18), thus contradicting the imparted righteousness doctrine.

And those in Christ Jesus do the will of our Father in heaven and face no condemnation due to their obedience.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

Sadly, those who seek to be perfected by the flesh are those who will say in that day "Lord, Lord....", only to hear 'depart from me ye that work iniquity'. These have rejected the will of God.

BTW, are there different types of righteousness?
We know of the law of righteousness (10 commandments), as scripture speaks of. But you always avoid this and speak of righteousness in some indistinct allegedly higher type.

Scripture shows righteousness is attained either by works OR by faith. This speaks of only ONE righteousness, which is gauged by the law of righteousness. Why do you avoid the righteousness that is determined by the law of righteousness?

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

 

[IanLC]

Why practice sin if we are redeemed by God's grace through Jesus' sacrifice and we are commanded to live holy?

 

[Axehead]

Why practice sin if we are redeemed by God's grace through Jesus' sacrifice and we are commanded to live holy?

Amen, why practice sin if you don't have to anymore? The power of it has been broken so now we really have a choice and can choose NOT TO sin.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Prior to being born of the Spirit we had not such "henceforth" in our lives. We WERE SLAVES OF SIN.

But Christ has freed us and we are no longer slaves.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Now that is something to shout about!!

Axehead

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
Do ya'll think this is a false statement? Considering what you have stated, if true, then that man's statement must be false. If it is not false I think ya'll got a bit of a problem.

 

[rand]

Oh it's true, but who can keep the law perfectly? God said when He first gave the law that if you keep it perfectly I will bless you but if you fail in only one part I will bring these curses--see Deut chpt 28.

And for Axehead, I ask you: How has the power of sin over us been broken? Sin has no power over us because we are not under the law. Actually, the strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56). And can you believe it says that sin passion is aroused by the law? (Romans 7:5)

Like Jesus told the rich young ruler who thought He was doing such a great job at keeping the law, 'there is still one thing you lack.' Jesus will always be able to say that to those who are trying to be justified by keeping the law. Trust God on this: no one will be justified by the law. If you have righteousness, it's not because of you, it's because of Christ. Those who think they are righteous because they THINK they have done such a good job at keeping the law.... well, let me put it this way. Unless your righteousness exceeds theirs, you will not see the kingdom of God. Unless your righteousness is of Christ, it is self-righteousness. The law leads to self-righteousness (Phil 3:9). I think we all need to better understand Grace. The law came by moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus.

The mercy seat is above (the top-cover) of the Arc of the Covenant and the law was inside the ark; beneath or uder the mercy seat. That's what it means to fall from grace to go back under the law. Did you receive Christ by grace or because you kept the law? Colossians 2:6 says to live your whole life the same way you received Christ. The Gospel is good news, it's not the same old news the Jews have been living with for thousands of years. The Cross changed everything.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Oh it's true, but who can keep the law perfectly? God said when He first gave the law that if you keep it perfectly I will bless you but if you fail in only one part I will bring these curses--see Deut chpt 28.

And for Axehead, I ask you: How has the power of sin over us been broken? Sin has no power over us because we are not under the law. Actually, the strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56). And can you believe it says that sin passion is aroused by the law? (Romans 7:5)

Like Jesus told the rich young ruler who thought He was doing such a great job at keeping the law, 'there is still one thing you lack.' Jesus will always be able to say that to those who are trying to be justified by keeping the law. Trust God on this: no one will be justified by the law. If you have righteousness, it's not because of you, it's because of Christ. Those who think they are righteous because they THINK they have done such a good job at keeping the law.... well, let me put it this way. Unless your righteousness exceeds theirs, you will not see the kingdom of God. Unless your righteousness is of Christ, it is self-righteousness. The law leads to self-righteousness (Phil 3:9). I think we all need to better understand Grace. The law came by moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus.

The mercy seat is above (the top-cover) of the Arc of the Covenant and the law was inside the ark; beneath or uder the mercy seat. That's what it means to fall from grace to go back under the law. Did you receive Christ by grace or because you kept the law? Colossians 2:6 says to live your whole life the same way you received Christ. The Gospel is good news, it's not the same old news the Jews have been living with for thousands of years. The Cross changed everything.

The law he referred to in Rom. 2:13 is a law that has been added to the law. That one you must keep or violate a law you cannot be forgiven of offending. Yeah you are right. Crucifying Jesus has changed everyting, but not like you think it has.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi rand,

You said:

How has the power of sin over us been broken? Sin has no power over us because we are not under the law.

Theodore A. Jones said

Crucifying Jesus has changed everyting, but not like you think it has.

The power of sin over us has been broken through the battle Jesus Christ won against Satan when He was on the cross - the crushing of the serpent's head, which He was qualified to attempt and succeed, because the righteousness of the Law had been fulfilled in Him.

Our freedom from the law is only possible when we receive (as our own), His death, in which sin was ended - both 'the sin' (its power) and, the sins (the evidence of the sin's power over mankind) of the whole world atoned for.

Hebrews 9:26b '... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

If we become reconciled to God through faith in Christ's death and resurrection, (it being understood that repentance from sin is essential), He will send His Holy Spirit to help us; and with the help of the Holy Spirit we will enter into Christ's victory over sin by overcoming the power of sin in our own lives. This is how grace kicks in, to enable us to live according to the law which is now in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 8:10b '... I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.'

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

There is no freedom from the law separate from the circumcision of Christ in the heart, by which 'the body of sin' is put off.

 

[Episkopos]

Oh it's true, but who can keep the law perfectly? God said when He first gave the law that if you keep it perfectly I will bless you but if you fail in only one part I will bring these curses--see Deut chpt 28.

And for Axehead, I ask you: How has the power of sin over us been broken? Sin has no power over us because we are not under the law. Actually, the strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56). And can you believe it says that sin passion is aroused by the law? (Romans 7:5)

Like Jesus told the rich young ruler who thought He was doing such a great job at keeping the law, 'there is still one thing you lack.' Jesus will always be able to say that to those who are trying to be justified by keeping the law. Trust God on this: no one will be justified by the law. If you have righteousness, it's not because of you, it's because of Christ. Those who think they are righteous because they THINK they have done such a good job at keeping the law.... well, let me put it this way. Unless your righteousness exceeds theirs, you will not see the kingdom of God. Unless your righteousness is of Christ, it is self-righteousness. The law leads to self-righteousness (Phil 3:9). I think we all need to better understand Grace. The law came by moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus.

The mercy seat is above (the top-cover) of the Arc of the Covenant and the law was inside the ark; beneath or uder the mercy seat. That's what it means to fall from grace to go back under the law. Did you receive Christ by grace or because you kept the law? Colossians 2:6 says to live your whole life the same way you received Christ. The Gospel is good news, it's not the same old news the Jews have been living with for thousands of years. The Cross changed everything.

The righteousness of God is a by-product of abiding with Christ in the holiness of God. It is as the heat that radiates out from the flame. It is the presence of God that keeps us from sin. We then practice being empty so that we can be filled with His Spirit.

Why is fasting so prevalent in the ways of God??? We practice being empty and resist the urge to fill ourselves. By remaining empty and waiting for the Lord we renew our strength to do as God pleases. It is not the easiest thing to do but this practice is our continuing surrender to God.

 

[rand]

What verses are you using to make these points? I am not empty. I have the Holy spirit inside of me, and I will never have to be without Him. My strength is in the Lord and I will never have to be without Him. I am nothing without Jesus and I will never have to be without Him again. But what has this got to do with introduing the law back into the gospel of grace. Seek fist His kingdom (the King's domain) and His righteousness (which only comes by faith Romans 10:4)

I am not saying that sin is ok because we are under grace. No. What I'm saying is that if you walk in the light as He is in the light He will continually cleans us for unrighteousness. But what I'm getting from you is that you think that walking in the light means keeping the laws of moses. But, if I'm keeping the laws then what is it He's cleansing me from? His righteousness comes only by belief in Christ. Walking in the light is walking in the faith that He is keeping you till the redemption. Trust Him, He will keep you. It's not easy for man-kind to have that faith; to rest in that assurance. We always feel we must DO something (work) instead of resting in Him. We need to run the race of faith like we are trying to win, (our victory is in HIm) and we should fight the good fight of faith.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi rand,

Is any of your last post addressed to me? Please clarify which part?

Thanks.

 

[Raeneske]

First off, the Bible says faith without works is dead. So yes, mankind must actually do something. Nothing we do saves us, no, but you have to put actions behind your beliefs/words. Do you believe in God? Good! The Devils believe and tremble too.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19 KJV)

See they believe, it doesn't save them however. You must put works behind your faith.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26 KJV)

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20 KJV)

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2:17 KJV)

Your works don't justify you. They show you have faith. That's it- period. It shows who your Master really is. Remember the statement, by their fruits you shall know them? You may scream "I have faith" until you're blue in the face. But if you go along, and continually steal things, and take the Lord's name in vain, by those fruits, are they saying you are a Christian? So, is this next verse a contradiction?

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Romans 2:13 KJV)

Obviously not. It's perfectly in line with the other scriptures. Those who hear the law, are like those who have faith, but have no works behind their faith. They are dead, they are not just before God. But those who have faith, and have their works behind their faith, are just before God. Is it saying those who are doing the law are justified JUST BY THE LAW? No! It's only stating that those who are doing the law (inclusive of faith of course) are justified.

Now, am I saying you don't make mistakes and sin? No. I am not. I am not claiming you can spend your entire life perfect without sin. But you don't sin every second of every day either. That's utterly repulsive. But you can spend, minutes, hours, days without sin. Now, is it your righteousness? Nope, it is Christ our righteousness. He enables us to keep the law. How? He cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9 KJV)

Notice, two things happen here. 1) He forgives the sin. 2) Cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Are you not born again? Does not our old man die? Aren't we supposed to walk as Jesus walked?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:8-10 KJV)

Whosoever is born of God, does NOT sin and don't miss this - He CANNOT sin. He that works iniquity, known sin, cannot be born of God. Those who do righteously are of God, those who commit sin, are of their father, the devil.

Also, I don't know of a single person who goes "I have done such a good job of keeping the law". There are people who are looking at the doers of the law, as one's trying to save themselves, or gain their own righteousness. This couldn't be any further from the truth.

When tempted to steal, and you CHOOSE not to steal, are you trying to save yourself? When tempted to take the Lord's name in vain, and CHOOSE not to say it, are you trying to save yourself? When tempted to worship and idol, and you CHOOSE not to, are you trying to save yourself? NO! You are just withstanding temptation. So, those who are keeping the law, through the strength of Jesus I might add, are not trying to save themselves. No, it's being made known to the outside world, that they are of their Master, who is Christ.

 

[rand]

Hi Dragonfly, I was referring to you opening comment on the power of sin being broken. Is it a theology that you get by combining different scriptures or is there a single verse that says that? I'm not saying i disagree, because i don't. But i think that if you keep breaking down the 'crushing the head with the heel' you will see that it says the same as the one verse I gave you that; sin has no power over us because we are not under the law. So, if sin does still have power over us (like it does so much of the church) then obviously it's because we are still under the law at least to some degree. We are still trying to mix the law with grace.

And to Raeneske, Hi. Yes faith without works is dead. But remember, just because a person has works doesn't mean they have faith. I know plenty of Atheist that would put most Christians to shame by their works and good deeds to their fellow man. If you truely have faith, then yes, there will be works--you couldn't help it. most of it you probalby don't even realize you're doing. Another point on that subject is that God considered Abraham righteous because of his faith. Because he believed God. What work did Abraham have? Offering his son on the alter? That was about 30+ years after God called Abraham righteous. 30 years. Abraham was not a perfect character. He lied and when he was willing to let a king sleep with his wife (twice), God did not rebuke who He had blessed (Abraham), God rebuked the King in both cases.