Father Z

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ever heard of this guy? He is a priest who makes BOL look like a snowflake. He is a combination of James White, Rush Limbaugh, and Heinrich Kramer. If he wasnt Catholic, many of you would love him. Here is his blog Fr. Z's Blog | Formerly entitled: "What Does The Prayer Really Say?" – Clear, straight commentary on Catholic issues, liturgy and life by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf o{]:¬)

I wanted to post this thread as an extension of the bullying thread I started a couple of months ago because it is easier to recognize bullying behavior from a source you disagree with than in leadership you follow or respect.

So what do you think? Is this guy’s method for pantsing snowflakes and rooting out liberalism in the Catholic Church justified? Christian? Moral?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,960
3,408
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ever heard of this guy? He is a priest who makes BOL look like a snowflake. He is a combination of James White, Rush Limbaugh, and Heinrich Kramer. If he wasnt Catholic, many of you would love him. Here is his blog Fr. Z's Blog | Formerly entitled: "What Does The Prayer Really Say?" – Clear, straight commentary on Catholic issues, liturgy and life by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf o{]:¬)

I wanted to post this thread as an extension of the bullying thread I started a couple of months ago because it is easier to recognize bullying behavior from a source you disagree with than in leadership you follow or respect.

So what do you think? Is this guy’s method for pantsing snowflakes and rooting out liberalism in the Catholic Church justified? Christian? Moral?
Is secular liberalism more "moral" than exposing it?
 

junobet

Active Member
May 20, 2016
581
165
43
Germany
Exactly where and how does he do that? By selling an e-book for $.99???
Amazon and Barnes and Noble):
Come on. It’s obvious his blog is his business.

Not only is he promoting his "mystic monk’s coffee" or whatever, he has “donate”-buttons all over the place, conveniently using paypal and quite openly stating that the money is for him personally. And whichever page of his blog you open, you’ll find this at its side:

“SHOPPING ONLINE? Please, always come here first!

Enter Amazon through my link, the image below (they took away our search box!), and I will get a small percentage of what you spend. (Pssst - Can't see it? Turn off your "ad-blocker" for this site!) “


I should think the Catholic Church can afford to adequately pay its Priests so that they don’t need to stoop as low as to ask for donations for them personally in return for prayers and saying mass. That guy makes Tetzel look like a humble Franciscan in comparison. Seriously, I’m disgusted. Just as disgusted as I am by the many whacko Protestant preachers who abuse the name of God and the trust of their naïve followers to worship mammon. So yes, IMHO Father Z is right in this “den of robbers” (Luke 19:46).
 
  • Like
Reactions: aspen

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
junobet,

I have not read this person's information or visited the site. However, I disagree strongly with you in principle. Simply because someone is selling a book or asking for a donation for their research or ministry does not make them "a den of robbers" or someone who worships mammon. I think for you to assume this and implies much more of a judgmental approach on your part than a greed on his. How do you know this person does not donate much or all of those proceeds that he receives? Perhaps he has disabled family members he cares for and his writing and online ministry is a meager way for him to care for his family as well as write on topics he feels will bless and encourage others? Why is it wrong for a Christian to charge another Christian for fixing their plumbing, but not for dedicating their life to teaching and discipling others in the Lord?

I suppose we could come up with thousands of hypotheses, but the point is that the only option you can see is greed and love of money. We are supposed to assume the best about other Christians, not the worst. You may disagree with his ideas and not want to purchase his materials. That is fine. But to make accusations about his motivations and rationale for selling coffee or selling books seems very judgmental and unfair considering you do not even know this person.
 

epostle1

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2012
3,326
507
113
72
Essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Come on. It’s obvious his blog is his business.

Not only is he promoting his "mystic monk’s coffee" or whatever, he has “donate”-buttons all over the place, conveniently using paypal and quite openly stating that the money is for him personally. And whichever page of his blog you open, you’ll find this at its side:

“SHOPPING ONLINE? Please, always come here first!

Enter Amazon through my link, the image below (they took away our search box!), and I will get a small percentage of what you spend. (Pssst - Can't see it? Turn off your "ad-blocker" for this site!) “

I should think the Catholic Church can afford to adequately pay its Priests so that they don’t need to stoop as low as to ask for donations for them personally in return for prayers and saying mass. That guy makes Tetzel look like a humble Franciscan in comparison. Seriously, I’m disgusted. Just as disgusted as I am by the many whacko Protestant preachers who abuse the name of God and the trust of their naïve followers to worship mammon. So yes, IMHO Father Z is right in this “den of robbers” (Luke 19:46).
I think it's the content of some of the articles that really disgusts you:

Here is a quote from St. Josephine about her life as a slave:

“One day I unwittingly made a mistake that incensed the master’s son. He became furious, snatched me violently from my hiding place, and began to strike me ferociously with the lash and his feet Finally he left me half dead, completely unconscious. Some slaves carried me away and lay me on a straw mat, where I remained for over a month.
But wait! There’s more.

Finally, Chaput lists something that I haven’t seen for many years. He reads off the Renaissance humanist Desiderius Erasmus’ “22 Rules” – in bulletpoints – from his book Enchiridion militis Christiani or The Handbook or Manual of a Christian Knight.

Rule 1: Deepen and increase your faith.

Rule 2: Act on your faith; make it a living witness to others.

Rule 3: Analyze and understand your fears; don’t be ruled by them.

Rule 4: Make Jesus Christ the only guide and the only goal of your life.

Rule 5: Turn away from material things; don’t be owned by them.

Rule 6: Train your mind to distinguish the true nature of good and evil.

Rule 7: Never let any failure or setback turn you away from God.

Rule 8: Face temptation guided by God, not by worry or excuses.

Rule 9: Always be ready for attacks from those who fear the Gospel and resent the good.

Rule 10: Always be prepared for temptation. And do what you can to avoid it.

Rule 11: Be alert to two special dangers: moral cowardice and personal pride.

Rule 12: Face your weaknesses and turn them into strengths.

Rule 13: Treat each battle as if it were your last.

Rule 14: A life of virtue has no room for vice; the little vices we tolerate become the most deadly.

Rule 15: Every important decision has alternatives; think them through clearly and honestly in the light of what’s right.

Rule 16: Never, ever give up or give in on any matter of moral substance.

Rule 17: Always have a plan of action. Battles are often won or lost before they begin.

Rule 18: Always think through, in advance, the consequences of your choices and actions.

Rule 19: Do nothing — in public or private — that the people you love would not hold in esteem.

Rule 20: Virtue is its own reward; it needs no applause.

Rule 21: Life is demanding and brief; make it count.

Rule 22: Admit and repent your wrongs, never lose hope, encourage your brothers, and then begin again.

Finally, he concludes:

Maleness, brothers, is a matter of biology. It just happens. Manhood must be learned and earned and taught. That’s our task. So my prayer for all of us today is that God will plant the seed of a new knighthood in our hearts — and make us the kind of “new men” our families, our Church, our nation, and our world need.

Fr. Z kudos to Archbp. Chaput.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/

Be honest, the money thing you complain about is just an excuse to justify your rebellion. The so called "profits" from the sale of Catholic books go to missions, not into the pockets of archbishops.
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,960
3,408
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Exposing it for what?

Looking at that guy's webside it's certainly not moral how he tries to milk his audience for money.
So, when did fund-raising rise to the level of sin??
 

junobet

Active Member
May 20, 2016
581
165
43
Germany
junobet,

I have not read this person's information or visited the site. However, I disagree strongly with you in principle. Simply because someone is selling a book or asking for a donation for their research or ministry does not make them "a den of robbers" or someone who worships mammon. I think for you to assume this and implies much more of a judgmental approach on your part than a greed on his. How do you know this person does not donate much or all of those proceeds that he receives? Perhaps he has disabled family members he cares for and his writing and online ministry is a meager way for him to care for his family as well as write on topics he feels will bless and encourage others? Why is it wrong for a Christian to charge another Christian for fixing their plumbing, but not for dedicating their life to teaching and discipling others in the Lord?

I suppose we could come up with thousands of hypotheses, but the point is that the only option you can see is greed and love of money. We are supposed to assume the best about other Christians, not the worst. You may disagree with his ideas and not want to purchase his materials. That is fine. But to make accusations about his motivations and rationale for selling coffee or selling books seems very judgmental and unfair considering you do not even know this person.
Indeed, I know Father Z no more than I know Kenneth Copeland and the like. Still I haven't got the slightest scruples to throw them in with that den of robbers that Christ complained about when He cleansed the Temple. This may be judgemental on my part, but I'm sure it's justified anger. God knows. Christ made it abundantly clear that we are not to mix religion with commercial interests of our own.

That doesn't mean that I'm against liveable wages for Pastors or against donations for charity or for fixing the chuch's roof. But churches should be non-profit organizations and nobody should enrich themselves by preaching and praying or saying mass.

There's a chronic shortage of Catholic priests in my part of the world and probably also in the US. So I'm sure Father Z could easily find a parish that direly needs one. Instead he chose to make a business out of what should be a calling, and apparently this business pays much better than what he'd get as a parish priest.
 

junobet

Active Member
May 20, 2016
581
165
43
Germany
I think it's the content of some of the articles that really disgusts you:

Here is a quote from St. Josephine about her life as a slave:

“One day I unwittingly made a mistake that incensed the master’s son. He became furious, snatched me violently from my hiding place, and began to strike me ferociously with the lash and his feet Finally he left me half dead, completely unconscious. Some slaves carried me away and lay me on a straw mat, where I remained for over a month.
But wait! There’s more.

Finally, Chaput lists something that I haven’t seen for many years. He reads off the Renaissance humanist Desiderius Erasmus’ “22 Rules” – in bulletpoints – from his book Enchiridion militis Christiani or The Handbook or Manual of a Christian Knight.

Rule 1: Deepen and increase your faith.

Rule 2: Act on your faith; make it a living witness to others.

Rule 3: Analyze and understand your fears; don’t be ruled by them.

Rule 4: Make Jesus Christ the only guide and the only goal of your life.

Rule 5: Turn away from material things; don’t be owned by them.


Rule 6: Train your mind to distinguish the true nature of good and evil.

Rule 7: Never let any failure or setback turn you away from God.

Rule 8: Face temptation guided by God, not by worry or excuses.

Rule 9: Always be ready for attacks from those who fear the Gospel and resent the good.

Rule 10: Always be prepared for temptation. And do what you can to avoid it.

Rule 11: Be alert to two special dangers: moral cowardice and personal pride.

Rule 12: Face your weaknesses and turn them into strengths.

Rule 13: Treat each battle as if it were your last.

Rule 14: A life of virtue has no room for vice; the little vices we tolerate become the most deadly.

Rule 15: Every important decision has alternatives; think them through clearly and honestly in the light of what’s right.

Rule 16: Never, ever give up or give in on any matter of moral substance.

Rule 17: Always have a plan of action. Battles are often won or lost before they begin.

Rule 18: Always think through, in advance, the consequences of your choices and actions.

Rule 19: Do nothing — in public or private — that the people you love would not hold in esteem.

Rule 20: Virtue is its own reward; it needs no applause.

Rule 21: Life is demanding and brief; make it count.

Rule 22: Admit and repent your wrongs, never lose hope, encourage your brothers, and then begin again.

Finally, he concludes:

Maleness, brothers, is a matter of biology. It just happens. Manhood must be learned and earned and taught. That’s our task. So my prayer for all of us today is that God will plant the seed of a new knighthood in our hearts — and make us the kind of “new men” our families, our Church, our nation, and our world need.

Fr. Z kudos to Archbp. Chaput.
Fr. Z's Blog | Formerly entitled: "What Does The Prayer Really Say?" – Clear, straight commentary on Catholic issues, liturgy and life by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf o{]:¬)

Be honest, the money thing you complain about is just an excuse to justify your rebellion. The so called "profits" from the sale of Catholic books go to missions, not into the pockets of archbishops.
There are certainly Catholic Priests and Protestant pastors whose views are more to my personal liking. But if they went the way of Father Z, I would utter the same complaint against them: Father Z doesn't ask for donations to missions and charities. He clearly says that these donations go into his very own pocket. Shame on him.
 

junobet

Active Member
May 20, 2016
581
165
43
Germany
ha i gotta say i considered that a saving grace lol, even if i get you
Right, it would indeed be worse if he pretended it was for some charity or ministry purpose only to then buy a private jet from the money, like others have done. Well, it’s obvious: Christ’s disciples must travel in style even if the Lord Himself rode on a donkey. ;-)
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Indeed, I know Father Z no more than I know Kenneth Copeland and the like. Still I haven't got the slightest scruples to throw them in with that den of robbers that Christ complained about when He cleansed the Temple. This may be judgemental on my part, but I'm sure it's justified anger. God knows. Christ made it abundantly clear that we are not to mix religion with commercial interests of our own.

That doesn't mean that I'm against liveable wages for Pastors or against donations for charity or for fixing the chuch's roof. But churches should be non-profit organizations and nobody should enrich themselves by preaching and praying or saying mass.

There's a chronic shortage of Catholic priests in my part of the world and probably also in the US. So I'm sure Father Z could easily find a parish that direly needs one. Instead he chose to make a business out of what should be a calling, and apparently this business pays much better than what he'd get as a parish priest.

junobet,

First, I think that is a real mistake to compare Jesus' cleansing of the Temple with someone trying to sell a theological book online. A website is not the Temple of God. An online space is not preventing Gentiles from being able to pray to God in a holy place that was designated by God under a covenant relationship God had with his people. Moreover, the corruption taking place in the Temple had more to do with a money-making scheme that was dishonest than it did merely selling animals.

Second, you claim you are not against pastors making a wage, but then you accuse this individual (whom you admit you know nothing about) of seeking to "enrich" himself. What is the difference in making a wage that someone can use to provide food, shelter, clothes and transportation for themselves and "enriching" themselves? You are essentially saying this person is seeking to become overwhelmingly rich and use those riches for personal means. How can you know this? What gives you the authority to make such a declaration and slander someone's character and motivation when you yourself admit you know nothing about this person, how much money they are making or their rationale?

“Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” (Romans 14:4, ESV)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

junobet

Active Member
May 20, 2016
581
165
43
Germany
junobet,

First, I think that is a real mistake to compare Jesus' cleansing of the Temple with someone trying to sell a theological book online. A website is not the Temple of God. An online space is not preventing Gentiles from being able to pray to God in a holy place that was designated by God under a covenant relationship God had with his people. Moreover, the corruption taking place in the Temple had more to do with a money-making scheme that was dishonest than it did merely selling animals.

Second, you claim you are not against pastors making a wage, but then you accuse this individual (whom you admit you know nothing about) of seeking to "enrich" himself. What is the difference in making a wage that someone can use to provide food, shelter, clothes and transportation for themselves and "enriching" themselves? You are essentially saying this person is seeking to become overwhelmingly rich and use those riches for personal means. How can you know this? What gives you the authority to make such a declaration and slander someone's character and motivation when you yourself admit you know nothing about this person, how much money they are making or their rationale?

“Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” (Romans 14:4, ESV)
Wormwood, maybe you should bother to have a look around this blog. This guy never wrote a Christian book. If people buy anything from amazon via his link he’ll get a percentage, no matter whether people buy a new lawn-mower or porn. Offering prayers and masses in return for donations to him personally? That’s OK? Even Pope Leo X did better than that. At least people can still enjoy the beauty of St. Peter’s cathedral.

It honours you to cite Romans 14:4, a verse all of us do good to remember. But I also distinctly remember that you yourself don’t shy away from calling something a sin when you perceive it as such. Question is: why do you fail to see the sin here? Maybe it’s a cultural thing: Christianity in the USA has become so accustomed to be run by the principles of the free market, that you think that’s just normal. From my point of view it ain’t.
 

epostle1

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2012
3,326
507
113
72
Essex
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Unless anyone can substantiate what Fr. Z does with whatever money is made with hard facts and financial statements; this thread amounts to nothing more than GOSSIP.