'Forsake' or 'separate'...

[GerhardEbersoehn]

'Forsake' or 'separate'...

Psalm 22:1,20-25
[Exodus 12:3,5 Ezekiel 39:29; 40:1b,4 Exodus 10,12,14 John 12:27,28; 17:1,4,5 Psalm 139:12,15,16]

Mark 15:34,35 [Exodus 12:3:5 Mark 7:32-35]
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani? which is, being interpreted,

Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

καί τινες τῶν παρεστηκότων ἀκούσαντες ἔλεγον
And some of them that stood by, when they heard, said,

Ἴδε Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ.
Behold, he calleth Elias.

Matthew 27:46,47
περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν
Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say,

Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 τινὲς δὲ τῶν ἐκεῖ ἑστηκότων ἀκούσαντες
Some of that stood there, when they heard,

ἔλεγον ὅτι Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ οὗτος.
said, This man calleth for Elias.

John 19:28
Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται,
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,

ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφὴ, λέγει Διψῶ.
that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
..................................
About
ἐγκαταλείπω x9
with the inappellable meaning of to “separate” and unchallengeable appropriate usage with that meaning in John 15:34 for εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με, as well as in every of its NT incidences in Mark 15:34 Matthew 27:46 Acts 2:27 Romans 9:29 2Corinthians 4:9 2Timothy 4:10; 4:16 Hebrews 10:25; 13:5

The word ἐγκαταλείπω is another word than καταλείπω which is used 25 times simply meaning to “leave” or “forsake”...
John 8:9 Ἰησοῦς κατελείφθη μόνος Jesus was left alone
Luke 20:31 οὐ κατέλιπον τέκνα they left no children
Romans 11:4 I reserved to myself
Titus 1:5 for this cause left I thee in Crete etc.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Now look at the red words, they tell the tale of interpretation by,

1) Mark and Matthew the Gospel writers; 2) by some of them that stood by who, when they heard, said…; and, 3) by John who interpreted, “After / according to this, Jesus knowing… all things were now accomplished”.

1) Mark and Matthew, compiling their documentation, “interpreted” Jesus’ “calling out” [ἐβόησεν / ἀνεβόησεν] “according to” [μετὰ τοῦτο] the LXX in Psalm 22:1, ‘hinati enkatelipes me’.

2) John heard from ‘sources’; he had “gone back home” by the time Jesus called out these words. When in isolation he later wrote, he perhaps more than anything “interpreted” the sound of ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani’ with “πάντα τετ-έλε-σται”.

3) “Some” in the crowd who spoke Aramaic though, “when they heard Jesus say, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani’, “interpreted”, or thought, Ἡλείαν φωνεῖ οὗτος’ – “This man calleth for Elias”.


Therefore, when translators many centuries later “interpret” with their ‘translation’, it cannot guarantee “forsake” is the correct word to have used. On the contrary, I stand by my criticism of their choice of interpretation, that “forsaken Me” is wrong, and that “separated Me”—even “sanctified Me”—, is truth calling to truth in this divine Moment of Truth in the Life of Christ while the Beloved Son of God “laid down his life” and the “pouring out of his soul” was all “finished” and fulfilled on the cross on Skull Hill.

 

[Enoch111]

Therefore, when translators many centuries later “interpret” with their ‘translation’, it cannot guarantee “forsake” is the correct word to have used.

Well the truth is that you are certainly not one of the authorities for either Hebrew or Greek, therefore you are quite mistaken. You should have gone back to Psalm 22:1 and determined the correct meaning from there.

לַ֭מְנַצֵּחַ עַל־אַיֶּ֥לֶת הַשַּׁ֗חַר מִזְמֹ֥ור לְדָוִֽד׃ אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי רָחֹ֥וק מִֽ֝ישׁוּעָתִ֗י דִּבְרֵ֥י שַׁאֲגָתִֽי
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי = azabtani (azavtani) = forsaken (Aramaic sabachthani)

Strong's Concordance
azab: to leave, forsake, loose
Transliteration: azab
Short Definition: forsaken

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to leave, forsake, loose
NASB Translation
abandon (3), abandoned (11), abandons (1), commits (1), deserted (1), failed (1), fails (1), forsake (48), forsaken (56), forsakes (2), forsaking (1), forsook (16), free (5), full* (1), give...vent (1), ignores (1), leave (26), leave them undone (1), leave your behind (1), leaves (2), leaving (1), left (22), left me behind (1), left the behind (1), left behind (1), let it go (1), neglect (2), stopped (1), surely release (1), withdrawn (1).

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Well the truth is that you are certainly not one of the authorities for either Hebrew or Greek, therefore you are quite mistaken. You should have gone back to Psalm 22:1 and determined the correct meaning from there.

לַ֭מְנַצֵּחַ עַל־אַיֶּ֥לֶת הַשַּׁ֗חַר מִזְמֹ֥ור לְדָוִֽד׃ אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי רָחֹ֥וק מִֽ֝ישׁוּעָתִ֗י דִּבְרֵ֥י שַׁאֲגָתִֽי
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי = azabtani (azavtani) = forsaken (Aramaic sabachthani)

Strong's Concordance
azab: to leave, forsake, loose
Transliteration: azab
Short Definition: forsaken

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to leave, forsake, loose
NASB Translation
abandon (3), abandoned (11), abandons (1), commits (1), deserted (1), failed (1), fails (1), forsake (48), forsaken (56), forsakes (2), forsaking (1), forsook (16), free (5), full* (1), give...vent (1), ignores (1), leave (26), leave them undone (1), leave your behind (1), leaves (2), leaving (1), left (22), left me behind (1), left the behind (1), left behind (1), let it go (1), neglect (2), stopped (1), surely release (1), withdrawn (1).

Well, it's not I who had to or '~have gone back to~' the Hebrew to consult 21st century IT machines like 'Strongs' to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of Psalm 22:1... '~לַ֭מְנַצֵּחַ עַל־אַיֶּ֥לֶת הַשַּׁ֗חַר מִזְמֹ֥ור לְדָוִֽד׃ אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי רָחֹ֥וק מִֽ֝ישׁוּעָתִ֗י דִּבְרֵ֥י שַׁאֲגָתִֽי
עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי = azabtani (azavtani) = forsaken (Aramaic sabachthani)~'... its you!

And it is not I who have not '~gone back to~' the Hebrew to consult 21st century IT machines like 'Strongs' to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of Psalm 22:1... it is the Gospel writers who have gone back to the EVENT and its actual circumstances where Jesus spoke the words according to the writers, and "interpreted" them. Not even they were able to "hear" or "interpret" clearly and unambiguously enough to with the same "authority" as you, claim that they have '~determined the correct meaning~' of '~Aramaic sabachthani~' at the hand of the Hebrew '~azabtani~'.

Just as important and telling is it that it is not I who have not '~gone back to~' the Hebrew to consult 21st century IT machines like 'Strongs' to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of Psalm 22:1, but it is the Gospel writers who have gone back to the LXX and the Greek word ἐγκαταλείπω (not καταλείπω). But one would swear if not your 'authorities' were 'there', YOU were there to tell three of the four Gospel writers '~certainly not one of the(m)~' were '~authorities for either Hebrew or Greek and therefore (were) quite mistaken (and) should have gone back to Psalm 22:1 and determined the correct meaning from (the Hebrew) there~'.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

But how about '~going back to~' the actual Psalm in the LXX to which Mark as well as Matthew refer to '~determine .. the correct meaning from there~' of what Jesus meant when he called out, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani" in Mark and Matthew? Mark as well as Matthew refer to Psalm 22 in the LXX because they both use its words, "hinati enkatelipes Me",
"1 My God, My God, why hast Thou sanctified [enkatalipes] Me?"
And the answer comes,
"Thou the Praise of Israel dwellest in a Sanctuary!"
That Sanctuary, was Christ! So intimate a Sanctuary of the Almighty was Jesus his Suffering Servant, that it says,
"I was cast upon Thee from the womb, Thou art My God from my mother's belly ... and Thou hast brought Me down into the dust of death ... Ye that fear the LORD, praise Him ... for He hath NOT despised nor abhorred the affliction of His Afflicted, neither hath He hid his face from Him, He heard!"

In the Sanctuary, Jesus Christ, is the only Place God hears, because The Sanctuary, Jesus Christ, is the only Place of God's Presence, Jesus Christ, "God with us". This was "Why o God, My God, Thou hast sanctified and separated Me."

 

[7angels]

just to confirm we are on the same sheet of music. you are referring to Jesus on the cross and the words He said right?

if so then we can look at psalms and it has a chapter(which i am not sure which chapter it is atm) tells us what Jesus was thinking on the cross. i believe Jesus who was sinless and always close to each other was suddenly separated from God by taking on the sins of the world. sin separates us from God which is why God gave His Son for us. from a human perspective if we were always thinking and talking to God and then our communications suddenly got cut off what would you think? even though you know that God never left you, you can still feel an empty space where God used to be. i am nowhere near Jesus in His walk with God but there have been times that i was relating with God and did things that were wrong and i felt God's presence disappear. how much more do you think Jesus felt the presence of God disappear when all the sins landed on Him?

God bless

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

just to confirm we are on the same sheet of music. you are referring to Jesus on the cross and the words He said right?
if so then we can look at psalms and it has a chapter(which i am not sure which chapter it is atm) tells us what Jesus was thinking on the cross. i believe Jesus who was sinless and always close to each other was suddenly separated from God by taking on the sins of the world. sin separates us from God which is why God gave His Son for us. from a human perspective if we were always thinking and talking to God and then our communications suddenly got cut off what would you think? even though you know that God never left you, you can still feel an empty space where God used to be. i am nowhere near Jesus in His walk with God but there have been times that i was relating with God and did things that were wrong and i felt God's presence disappear. how much more do you think Jesus felt the presence of God disappear when all the sins landed on Him? God bless

Note the times and events...
Mark 15:34,35
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46,47
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; that is to say,
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Mark 15:36 Matteus 27:48,49 let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:
And he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the spirit.
Lukas 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

IMMEDIATELY after Jesus had cried, "My God My God, What hast Thou separated Me unto?" He at the same time, died! And HOW did He die? "He said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost", into the hands of his Father! Therefore, How could the Father ever have 'forsaken' his Son!? He never did! But He honoured Him; He "sanctified" Him; God "separated" Christ at and as, the "Right Hand of God", "The Most Holy Place" "under his wings" "in the shadow of the Almighty" and "Cloud of His Presence", the 'Shekinah' of the Most Holy in His Sanctuary and Place of Refuge EVEN IN DEATH.

 

[7angels]

Note the times and events...

now i don't see how noting the times and events changes anything i was talking about?

IMMEDIATELY after Jesus had cried, "My God My God, What hast Thou separated Me unto?" He at the same time, died! And HOW did He die? "He said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit; and having said thus, he gave up the ghost", into the hands of his Father! Therefore, How could the Father ever have 'forsaken' his Son!? He never did!

i agree that God never forsook Jesus but that does not mean it did not feel that way to Jesus. God is everywhere whether heaven or hell. so unless the Father withdrew His presence, the Father is always with us. so even though Jesus called out to the Father and could not feel Him does not mean the Father had left.

But He honoured Him; He "sanctified" Him; God "separated" Christ at and as, the "Right Hand of God", "The Most Holy Place" "under his wings" "in the shadow of the Almighty" and "Cloud of His Presence", the 'Shekinah' of the Most Holy in His Sanctuary and Place of Refuge EVEN IN DEATH.

this honoring took place after Jesus died and went to hell not before. Jesus had to be punished for the sins of the World that He took upon Himself. only what went wrong for the devil was that because Jesus never did anything wrong allowed Jesus to be able to leave hell because Jesus never did any of those crimes He was accused of so Jesus had to be set free. so another way to look at it is that Jesus took our sins so He could go to hell and take back the ownership of the earth so we could be brought back into right standing with God at it was before adam sinned in the garden of eden.

God bless

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

now i don't see how noting the times and events changes anything i was talking about?

i agree that God never forsook Jesus but that does not mean it did not feel that way to Jesus. God is everywhere whether heaven or hell. so unless the Father withdrew His presence, the Father is always with us. so even though Jesus called out to the Father and could not feel Him does not mean the Father had left.

this honoring took place after Jesus died and went to hell not before. Jesus had to be punished for the sins of the World that He took upon Himself. only what went wrong for the devil was that because Jesus never did anything wrong allowed Jesus to be able to leave hell because Jesus never did any of those crimes He was accused of so Jesus had to be set free. so another way to look at it is that Jesus took our sins so He could go to hell and take back the ownership of the earth so we could be brought back into right standing with God at it was before adam sinned in the garden of eden.

God bless

Christ Triumphed in his suffering of dying the death of death Colossians 2:15, and by "the exceeding greatness of God's Power RAISING Him from the dead". Ephesians 1:19,20.

Jesus never '~had to be punished~'; we '~had to be punished~' because we are the ones who sinned; He never sinned, in fact it is written "He knew no sin".

Jesus never '~had to be punished for the sins of the World~', but '~He took upon Himself~' "our sins" because God "so loved the world". "For their sake", said Jesus, He did not contaminate Himself with their sins, but, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Now the truth is, sin pollutes; it does not sanctify or justify or purify whatsoever.

Therefore, was Jesus not polluted by or with sin whatsoever; he never '~had to be set free~' from sin or from '~punishment for sin~' He never shared in with us. Jesus free and willingly and "for joy that a Man (was) born into the world" became one of us and one with us, except in sin.

Thus Christ bore our iniquities from that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin until He was Raised by the Spirit with Power in the womb of the grave, because He never did anything wrong but everything to the Will of God right, which, leaving death behind, '~allowed Jesus to be able~' to '~be set free~' from the grave.

"The last enemy destroyed is death", therewith sin, death's cause, eventually and finally and once forever BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD.

 

[7angels]

Christ Triumphed in his suffering of dying the death of death Colossians 2:15, and by "the exceeding greatness of God's Power RAISING Him from the dead". Ephesians 1:19,20.

Jesus never '~had to be punished~'; we '~had to be punished~' because we are the ones who sinned; He never sinned, in fact it is written "He knew no sin".

Jesus never '~had to be punished for the sins of the World~', but '~He took upon Himself~' "our sins" because God "so loved the world". "For their sake", said Jesus, He did not contaminate Himself with their sins, but, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Now the truth is, sin pollutes; it does not sanctify or justify or purify whatsoever.

Therefore, was Jesus not polluted by or with sin whatsoever; he never '~had to be set free~' from sin or from '~punishment for sin~' He never shared in with us. Jesus free and willingly and "for joy that a Man (was) born into the world" became one of us and one with us, except in sin.

Thus Christ bore our iniquities from that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin until He was Raised by the Spirit with Power in the womb of the grave, because He never did anything wrong but everything to the Will of God right, which, leaving death behind, '~allowed Jesus to be able~' to '~be set free~' from the grave.

"The last enemy destroyed is death", therewith sin, death's cause, eventually and finally and once forever BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD.

you quote my saying but i don't understand how they apply. if want to talk about another subject please tell me. i get confused this way. so if you are quoting me to get my attention please say so. lets keep confusion to a minimum please.

God bless

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

you quote my saying but i don't understand how they apply. if want to talk about another subject please tell me. i get confused this way. so if you are quoting me to get my attention please say so. lets keep confusion to a minimum please.

From the start this discussion was about 'forsake or separate' in Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:47, and in the posts exchanged between you and me, about WHEN Jesus was 'forsaken' or 'separated' / 'sanctified' by the Father -- about IF 'forsaken' at all, or 'WHEN' and "unto what" definitively "separated"?

I believe the latter, That while Jesus was uttering the words, " 'lama sabachtani?' which, being interpreted, is, 'εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με' ", should read in English, "Is this what Thou hast sanctified Me unto?", He died and while dying, commended his soul into his Father' hands WHO THEN AND THERE most intimately was PRESENT for his dying Son.

You believe, No, it FELT for Jesus if his Father had forsaken Him; not that his Father had separated his Son unto Holy Purpose and Status.

How you reconcile your view with what is written though, only you will know.

 

[7angels]

Jesus never '~had to be punished for the sins of the World~', but '~He took upon Himself~' "our sins" because God "so loved the world". "For their sake", said Jesus, He did not contaminate Himself with their sins, but, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Now the truth is, sin pollutes; it does not sanctify or justify or purify whatsoever.

Therefore, was Jesus not polluted by or with sin whatsoever; he never '~had to be set free~' from sin or from '~punishment for sin~' He never shared in with us. Jesus free and willingly and "for joy that a Man (was) born into the world" became one of us and one with us, except in sin.

ok i now believe i understand where you are coming from. so i went back to reread your posts and picked out the part you referred to Jesus as being sanctified instead of forsaken.

I believe the latter, That while Jesus was uttering the words, " 'lama sabachtani?' which, being interpreted, is, 'εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με' ", should read in English, "Is this what Thou hast sanctified Me unto?"

now i would like to start with this quote before going to the top quote to tell you what i found. no matter where i went i did not see forsaken being interpreted as sanctified. so this is where i went to your posts to see what you were referring to. now i will start there.

you said 'Jesus never '~had to be punished for the sins of the World~', but '~He took upon Himself~' "our sins" because God "so loved the world.'

i agree so far with you.

you said "For their sake", said Jesus, He did not contaminate Himself with their sins, but, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Now the truth is, sin pollutes; it does not sanctify or justify or purify whatsoever.

i would like to know where this thinking came from. this is unscriptural. the Word tells us He took our sins upon Himself for us. Jesus spent 3 days in Hell because of it. if the sins of the world were not on Jesus then why would He of gone to hell? innocent people are not sent to hell. innocent is a sinless person since once a person sins they deserve the death penalty according to scripture.

sanctify sounds sweet here like OSAS or grace is given to everyone doctrine but it is unscriptural. i would be careful of changing the meaning of scripture. the bible lists the repercussions of doing so. also the bible tells us that scripture is of no private interpretation. all your scriptures listed say nothing or even refer to Jesus' words meaning sanctified and not forsaken. BE VERY CAREFUL CONCERNING THIS LINE OF DOCTRINE.

God bless

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

you said "For their sake", said Jesus, He did not contaminate Himself with their sins, but, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Now the truth is, sin pollutes; it does not sanctify or justify or purify whatsoever.

i would like to know where this thinking came from.

You have been reading, "for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." This is '~where this thinking came from~'. Jesus was the "Lamb without blemish, spot or wrinkle". That is truth! Jesus 'had', no sin, nor ever, 'was sin'. I do not believe Mrs White; I believe God's Word!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

the Word tells us He took our sins upon Himself for us.

Yes; not He sinned for us!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus spent 3 days in Hell because of it.

Not only three days, but his whole life in the flesh; his last "three days" having been the very depth and pinnacle and width and length of it. "But God with death loosed the pains of death" for Christ and "left NOT his Soul in hell" the kingdom of satan and sin .. "the Kingdom of Darkness", and "hid your life with Christ in God". I do not believe '7angels' or their 7 trumpets; I believe in God in Christ.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

innocent people are not sent to hell. innocent is a sinless person since once a person sins they deserve the death penalty according to scripture.

There is "not one" '~innocent~' among all 'people'. Jesus did not 'deserve the death penalty'; if sin contaminated Him, He too would have 'deserved the death penalty' like all of us, the 'people', do.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

sanctify sounds sweet here like OSAS or grace is given to everyone doctrine but it is unscriptural.

So this has been what you actually were driving at. It has been clear and conspicuous from your first words.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

what i found. no matter where i went i did not see forsaken being interpreted as sanctified.

Really? Who's talking about interpreting forsaken? It would be interesting though to hear where you went to, to '~see forsaken being interpreted as sanctified~'? man o man