God,Eden, Adam,fruit, satan,law, Christ,us

[mjrhealth]

We all know the story in the beginning, how God created Adam, put Him in the garden and told, Him.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

than at some stage Adam must of told Ever since she was created after and the devil comes along,

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

than along come the law,

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

and now man has the knowledge of sin and death,

Than comes Christ, completely fulfilling all the requirements, bringing us into Righteousness by His works though grace by faith,

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

now free from sin, now like Adam in the beginning, walking in righteousness not of ourselves, than along comes the devil in all his deceitfulness and whispers in your ear,

Go on keep the law, surely you will not die.

 

[soul man]

We all know the story in the beginning, how God created Adam, put Him in the garden and told, Him.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

than at some stage Adam must of told Ever since she was created after and the devil comes along,

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

than along come the law,

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

and now man has the knowledge of sin and death,

Than comes Christ, completely fulfilling all the requirements, bringing us into Righteousness by His works though grace by faith,

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

now free from sin, now like Adam in the beginning, walking in righteousness not of ourselves, than along comes the devil in all his deceitfulness and whispers in your ear,

Go on keep the law, surely you will not die.

What is distinct about Adam and us, Adam didn't have a sin nature at one time. We were born in Adams sin and now free from it by Christ

 

[Enoch111]

Go on keep the law, surely you will not die.

Is this another Law vs Grace thread? If so, the whole truth about the Law should be presented. And what the Law means in various contexts.

 

[mjrhealth]

Is this another Law vs Grace thread? If so, the whole truth about the Law should be presented. And what the Law means in various contexts.

No

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

it all about LIFE.

 

[Taken]

Is this another Law vs Grace thread? If so, the whole truth about the Law should be

presented. And what the Law means in various contexts.

Whether or not the OP intent....a very important passage was quoted, and seems often times overlooked....

Rom 7:8
For without the law sin is dead.

Speaking in the spiritual context, since SIN is not a living breathing thing.

Nothing can DIE, until it has FRIST LIVED.
And nothing that is Natural can Spiritually Live, until it has Naturally died.

Once the LAW, existed, THE LAW could be violated, but not "killed", ie DEAD.

(Even Jesus Himself, claimed He did not "destroy" the Law)...

Once the LAW, was fulfilled, THE LAW, became MOOT; No longer having EFFECT.

Once the LAW, was MOOT; so also was the "Curses"...ie the LAWS that dictated the "punishments" for VIOLATING the LAW.
(Which is parallel to today's PENAL Codified Laws).

WITH the Punishment Laws becoming MOOT...
There IS NO LONGER "ENFORCEMENT" of punishments".

Thus the "FORCE and EFFECT" of the LAW, became "MOOT", BECAUSE Jesus "FULFILLED" the LAW.

And to WHOM does this APPLY?

THAT is a bit more complicated...

1) One it APPLIES TO "those" whom the LAW was given.....ie THE JEWS.
2) Two it APPLIES TO "those" Jews, whom BELIEVE IN GOD and IN Jesus, and that Jesus fulfilled the Law.

Does it APPLY to Gentiles? No.
Because the Law was NOT given to them, FOR the Law TO APPLY to them.

Does it APPLY to Jews, who do NOT believe in Jesus, or that He fulfilled the LAW? No.

Many Jews CHOSE to reject Jesus, AND in doing so....they Reject his fulfilling...AND in doing so...."they" REMAIN under the "EFFECT" of the LAW...and It's "punishments" of the "ENFORCEMENT" of the LAW.

They continue to ENDURE in faithfulness, by their OWN power to keep obedience TO the Law...and may at ANY time, fall away from "keeping" the LAW...
(Particularly, they CAN NOT, sacrifice the blood of animals, to receive a yearly "atonement" for their sin, Because that requirement, of animal sacrifice was required to be performed IN the Jewish "TEMPLE", IN Jerusalem.....AND oops....Jesus caused the "TEMPLE" of stone and brick to FALL and become destroyed.
And without the belief in Jesus, neither do they have; Jesus' blood sacrifice for their forgiveness.).


Where as, those IN Christ, are THOSE WITHOUT the LAW, and are KEPT in Faithfulness, BY the POWER of the Holy Spirit within them.

Jesus REMOVED the "FORCE and EFFECT" OF the LAW....but an individual MUST BELIEVE THAT, before it APPLIES to them.

Some Jews are coming INTO belief in and submitting to a conversion IN Jesus Christ....not called born again Christians....but are SAVED and QUICKENED and are called; Messianic Jews.

What a Great Blessing they are unto the Lord God!!

God Bless,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

Whether or not the OP intent....a very important passage was quoted, and seems often times overlooked....

Rom 7:8
For without the law sin is dead.

Speaking in the spiritual context, since SIN is not a living breathing thing.

Nothing can DIE, until it has FRIST LIVED.
And nothing that is Natural can Spiritually Live, until it has Naturally died.

Once the LAW, existed, THE LAW could be violated, but not "killed", ie DEAD.

(Even Jesus Himself, claimed He did not "destroy" the Law)...

Once the LAW, was fulfilled, THE LAW, became MOOT; No longer having EFFECT.

Once the LAW, was MOOT; so also was the "Curses"...ie the LAWS that dictated the "punishments" for VIOLATING the LAW.
(Which is parallel to today's PENAL Codified Laws).

WITH the Punishment Laws becoming MOOT...
There IS NO LONGER "ENFORCEMENT" of punishments".

Thus the "FORCE and EFFECT" of the LAW, became "MOOT", BECAUSE Jesus "FULFILLED" the LAW.

And to WHOM does this APPLY?

THAT is a bit more complicated...

1) One it APPLIES TO "those" whom the LAW was given.....ie THE JEWS.
2) Two it APPLIES TO "those" Jews, whom BELIEVE IN GOD and IN Jesus, and that Jesus fulfilled the Law.

Does it APPLY to Gentiles? No.
Because the Law was NOT given to them, FOR the Law TO APPLY to them.

Does it APPLY to Jews, who do NOT believe in Jesus, or that He fulfilled the LAW? No.

Many Jews CHOSE to reject Jesus, AND in doing so....they Reject his fulfilling...AND in doing so...."they" REMAIN under the "EFFECT" of the LAW...and It's "punishments" of the "ENFORCEMENT" of the LAW.

They continue to ENDURE in faithfulness, by their OWN power to keep obedience TO the Law...and may at ANY time, fall away from "keeping" the LAW...
(Particularly, they CAN NOT, sacrifice the blood of animals, to receive a yearly "atonement" for their sin, Because that requirement, of animal sacrifice was required to be performed IN the Jewish "TEMPLE", IN Jerusalem.....AND oops....Jesus caused the "TEMPLE" of stone and brick to FALL and become destroyed.
And without the belief in Jesus, neither do they have; Jesus' blood sacrifice for their forgiveness.).


Where as, those IN Christ, are THOSE WITHOUT the LAW, and are KEPT in Faithfulness, BY the POWER of the Holy Spirit within them.

Jesus REMOVED the "FORCE and EFFECT" OF the LAW....but an individual MUST BELIEVE THAT, before it APPLIES to them.

Some Jews are coming INTO belief in and submitting to a conversion IN Jesus Christ....not called born again Christians....but are SAVED and QUICKENED and are called; Messianic Jews.

What a Great Blessing they are unto the Lord God!!

God Bless,
Taken

If the law never applied to Gentiles then from whence did sin arise that Gentiles needed a Saviour, seeing without law is no sin?

 

[mjrhealth]

If the law never applied to Gentiles then from whence did sin arise that Gentiles needed a Saviour, seeing without law is no sin?

So if you than have no sin without the law, than you than choose the law so that you can sin.. good one, oh and the devil has a laughs at mans ignorance. It was because of death, this part,

Rom_5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

that we needed Christ, everyone died before the law, death reigned untill,

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

we are

Gal_3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal_3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Children of promise.

 

[brakelite]

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

Like I said elsewhere, I have no issues with scripture, so quoting some text to me isn't going to phase me because I don't disagree with it. What I disagree with is your conclusion. Transgressions are offenses against law. See Romans 4:15 and 1John3:4. So if there were transgressions, there must have already been laws. So when Paul says a law was added because of transgression (against law) then we must be speaking of two distinct laws. One, the law that points out sin...the moral law or decalogue...and the law which was given as the temporary antidote, the gospel law to Israel...the ceremonial laws and sacrifices which were fulfilled in Christ. That second law given because of sin against the first law, is what Paul is talking about when he asks, "what then serveth the law? IN answer as you quoted, "it was given because of sin (Transgressions against the law) till the seed (Christ) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator(Again, Christ).
So the law which has ended is that ceremonial law which included all the feats and ceremonies and sacrifices and priesthood because Christ came and fulfilled that law, becoming the full revelation of God's good news for sinners, the ultimate Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. But Jesus Himself said, and Paul confirmed, that the law which points out sin, has never been removed or altered.
And you obfuscation didn't answer my question above. If there is no law for Gentiles (because you claim it was only given to Jews) then where does sin come from if there is no law to point it out? Why then do we need a Saviour if there is no sin, being no law?

 

[mjrhealth]

@brakelite
Love, Love always existed, God is Love, Love trumps everything, why do you think it was Jesus said,

Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
and guess what, Love would never condemn His brother to death by the law that HE knows they cant keep, especially when it was never given to them.

Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

As for the law, it never saved anyone, it condemned the world to death, has no leniency and never achieved anything but show the Jews what sin is.

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Yes it was for the Jews.

And just like this world that has many laws, we have prisons filled to bursting with people who break them, just as the prisons where filled before Christ by His grace entered in and set the captives free. Yet so many rather prison and death than life in Jesus Christ.

If you love sin so much, the law is just there waiting for you, and there is plenty of space in prison for you.

The law or Christ which is the one you are married too, the law its the one you boast of the most is it not, is that your first love.

The pride of man mix it with religion and this is what you get. Youl condemn the world to death because of your religion, but you wont leave your religion for Christ.

 

[Taken]

If the law never applied to Gentiles then from whence did sin arise that Gentiles needed a Saviour, seeing without law is no sin?

A gentiles SIN, has nothing to do with a pronounced LAW.

A gentiles SIN, is being naturally born, AGAINST GOD.

Being AGAINST God; is not believing in Him.

I wasn't naturally born believing in God...or Christ Jesus.

I heard about God, about Jesus, about Christ, and chose to read and learn more and more and more...
And elected to Trust, and Believe, and Heartfully Give my Life to the Lord God.

He directs me to BE in HIS LIKENESS...which is what I aim for.

No matter HOW MUCH I am made to be IN HIS LIKENESS....I will never BE GOD....I will never BE a spirit....I will never BE without a beginning.

Just as Jesus who IS Spirit, was MADE to be in the Likeness AS a human....had no beginning....was never A Human.

You do know EVEN "created spirits" can take on the LIKENESS "as a" human man...don't you? AND they can then be SEEN by Human men, and be called MEN....but It didn't MAKE them a HUMAN.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[mjrhealth]

@brakelite

did I forget to mention, the devil is having a laugh at you, keeping you from Christ just so you can please your flesh. He is a liar and the father of all lies

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

see a lot of that from religious men here on this forum.

 

[brakelite]

Love would never condemn His brother to death by the law that HE knows they cant keep

Yet the very scripture that you use to claim the Gentiles weren't given the law, Romans 2:14, in the very next verse says that because the law is written upon their hearts, can do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Now I like that you brought up love, for I agree that love is the very essence of the law...as Jesus said, on the two great love commandments, love for God and neighbour, hang all the law and the prophets, and as Paul said, love is the fulfilling of the law. When we love, we are keeping God's commandments. If we are not keeping God's commandments, it is because we are not loving. If we are coveting, for example, we are doing the opposite of love, being selfish. My contention and my premise throughout our discussion hinges on precisely that premise. When Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep MY commandments", He is speaking as Creator. Those words, keep MY commandments, are words of power...of promise...every bit the same as "thou shalt not". We can accept them as the word of a loving merciful Saviour who writes His law...LOVE...upon hearts that bears fruit in obedience. And the more we love, the more we are empowered to do what comes naturally to the new creation being wrought in us...a new sanctified love filled child of God...servants of righteousness predestined to be made into the image of our Saviour. I agree. Men in and of themselves cannot keep the law. But we are partakers of the divine nature. The very same divine nature that Jesus the Son of the Almighty leant on to live victoriously over sin and show us how it can be done. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[mjrhealth]

@brakelite

Well brakelite funny thing through your stubbornness, you have helped me see so much more clearly Gods gift to mankind, ad nas I have said, if you want to sin, the law is there waiting to slay you with all eagerness, but we ,Christs children are not going to sit here watch to condemn yourself to death.;

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

you are either
A. a sinner
B, the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith,

which is it.......

 

[brakelite]

What does this mean, practically as you live out your life? Has your belief in this premise changed you in any tangible way, and if so, how?

the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith,

 

[Enoch111]

If the law never applied to Gentiles then from whence did sin arise that Gentiles needed a Saviour, seeing without law is no sin?

This is why Christians need to understand the application of the term "the Law". And Romans 5 answers your question.

1. From the day Adam sinned, sin and its consequence death (both the first and second deaths) entered into the world. Cain exhibited this very clearly.

2. From Adam to Moses, sins were not codified within a set of commandments, but those commandments were embedded in the consciences of all human beings. So the Gentiles were subject to the Law as much as the Jews. See Romans 2.

3. All men were still accountable for their sins before Moses, and humanity was wiped out in the Flood because of the extreme wickedness which existed at that time.

4. When God gave Israel the Ten Commandments, He wrote them personally on two tablets of stone. This meant that they had universal and eternal application.

5. After the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and the establishment of the New Covenant, those commandments are written on the hearts and minds of believers by the Spirit.

6. When anyone reads or hears the Ten Commandments now, he or she immediately understands that they are guilty before God. And because of what was said to Adam at the beginning, they are subject to death (separation from God after physical death).

 

[Dave L]

God has infinite righteousness and all created beings have finite righteousness. Which is sin in comparison to God. So God created Adam as sinless only because God withheld the law from him. But when spoken, the law uncovered Adam's finite righteousness exposing it as sin. In this, God stripped Adam of his righteousness and then fulfilled the law perfectly and infinitely as God in Christ. Just as God imputed Adam's sin to his children, he imputed Christ's Infinite righteousness to us who believe in him. So God used Adam's sin to elevate those in Christ to having the infinite righteousness of God and all it deserves.

 

[Episkopos]

We all know the story in the beginning, how God created Adam, put Him in the garden and told, Him.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

than at some stage Adam must of told Ever since she was created after and the devil comes along,

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

than along come the law,

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

and now man has the knowledge of sin and death,

Than comes Christ, completely fulfilling all the requirements, bringing us into Righteousness by His works though grace by faith,

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

now free from sin, now like Adam in the beginning, walking in righteousness not of ourselves, than along comes the devil in all his deceitfulness and whispers in your ear,

Go on keep the law, surely you will not die.

Adam was tempted in his natural man. Just as we can be. The fact that Adam sinned without a sin nature shows that sin does not just come from a sinful nature...a sinful nature comes from indulging in sin. We all have a natural part of us....a human outer person that we interact with other and our environment with. We all have carnal senses. But we are to judge from faith...and not sight. Eve saw that the fruit looked good to eat. She was trusting her natural senses.

Faith is in the inner man....sight is from the outer natural man. We are to use the natural man for God's purpose but not be used by the natural. That is the lesson of Adam and his fall from favour with God.

 

[amadeus]

We all know the story in the beginning, how God created Adam, put Him in the garden and told, Him.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

than at some stage Adam must of told Ever since she was created after and the devil comes along,

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

than along come the law,

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

and now man has the knowledge of sin and death,

Than comes Christ, completely fulfilling all the requirements, bringing us into Righteousness by His works though grace by faith,

1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

now free from sin, now like Adam in the beginning, walking in righteousness not of ourselves, than along comes the devil in all his deceitfulness and whispers in your ear,

Go on keep the law, surely you will not die.

All being born of Adam and Eve, all were dead until Jesus. Did anyone in the OT come to Life as a direct result of making animal sacrifices or as a result of taking spotless animals to the sons of Aaron to make sacrifices on their behalf?

Accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for us, does that not place us where Adam and Eve were before they disobeyed God? Do we then have the two trees before us from which to choose: the tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Once we have believed in Jesus and received the resultant cleansing, what stops us from doing as they did and eating from the wrong tree?

 

[CoreIssue]

Reading this thread makes your head spin.

Adam and Eve were innocent. They didn't even know what sin meant.

They were told not to eat from the tree. Did they understand what death was? Unless they saw animals die no they didn't. They sure did not understand spiritual death.

But they ate and sin nature entered their flesh, along with the law of conscience.

And as the Bible says you if you don't know what sin is you are not responsible when you sin.

So obviously they had sinned but didn't understand what things they had done that were sin until the ate. Then they knew the eating and being naked was sin.

God killed the animal to cover their skin with the hide and their sin with the blood just as under Mosaic law the blood of the lamb covered sin already committed.

But they still had their sin nature.

From Christ on his blood covers the sins of those who repent. But their flesh still has sin nature.

So no, we do not become like abdomen the before the ate. We still have our full sin nature won't keep them until glorification.

The big distinction is our spirits are cleansed of sin nature and we are assured glorification, which those before Christ were not.

 

[Enoch111]

Reading this thread makes your head spin.

The title is a dead giveaway. It is meant to make your head spin.