Good Works we can really do!

[Randy Kluth]

I would like to emphasize this again and again, because it appears Protestant Theology has done much harm in this regard. And I'm a Protestant! We've become sinners by nature, but our sinful condition does not prohibit us from doing good works. Whether we are saved or not, all men can do good works despite the fact they now have a Sin Nature.

It is often thought, and it is often taught, that because all men have a Sin Nature they cannot do any good, and they cannot turn to Christ. Christ must saved them because, it is thought, they cannot turn to Christ in their sinful condition.

We read that we love God because He 1st loved us. Though this is true, it is equally true that God's love has always extended to all men, making them able to respond to His word. Separating ourselves from Him by becoming sinners does not prohibit us from responding to His overt outreach of love to us by loving Him in return!

In a nutshell, since God's love is *always* reaching out to Man, Man can *always* obey God's moral imperatives, whether it's just a matter of doing good works or accepting Salvation entirely. Our will is *not* bound and preventing us from either doing good or accepting Christ. We can do good precisely because God has always been enabling Man to obey Him. God has *always* been loving us 1st so that we can always love Him in return! Being a sinner does *not* prevent us from either loving Him or doing things He wants Man to do!

 

[marks]

We can do good precisely because God has always been enabling Man to obey Him. God has *always* been loving us 1st so that we can always love Him in return! Being a sinner does *not* prevent us from either loving Him or doing things He wants Man to do!

Hi Randy,

What are your thoughts on this part?

Romans 8
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

This sounds to me that flesh will always go against God. If the carnal mind is God's enemy, how would that person love Him?

I look at Titus 2, I forget the verse, for the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, I've heard the term prevenient grace, I think that fits. That God gives us faith, and God gives His Word, the Gospel, and we have the choice to believe or not. And if we choose to believe, that faith, the faith of Christ, becomes ours, and we are born again.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

What are your thoughts on this part?

Romans 8
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

This sounds to me that flesh will always go against God. If the carnal mind is God's enemy, how would that person love Him?

I look at Titus 2, I forget the verse, for the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, I've heard the term prevenient grace, I think that fits. That God gives us faith, and God gives His Word, the Gospel, and we have the choice to believe or not. And if we choose to believe, that faith, the faith of Christ, becomes ours, and we are born again.

Much love!

I've oddly been a virtual Calvinist for most of my Christian life. However, there are things about Predestination that has caused me to withdraw from some of its language.

Paul seem clearly to be Predestinarian in Rom 9-11. However, when philosophy got mixed with theology, in Augustine and in Luther, the language tends to get a little obscure for me. I don't recall much about when I read Augustine, but I do feel that Luther reverted almost to a state of fatalism, as if the human will is bound and unable to respond to God.

And it is this that I'm addressing, because I was raised a Lutheran, and have had to face this issue directly. I'm no longer Lutheran, but I still have a lot of admiration for Luther. But in my understanding, his friend Melanchthon was a bit more reasonable. Luther was so focused on breaking from Catholic Works Theology that I fully understand his tendency to lump too many issues into "Justification by Faith Alone."

I believe in James' sense of Justification by the redemption of Christ alone, coupled with free human choice to repent and to embrace Christ as our justifier. In accepting Christ as our justifier we are also choosing to live by his word, and to let his word be our sole guide in life, to indwell us richly. We are born from above, relying on Christ in heaven, rather than on our own reason alone.

In saying we are sinful and carnal is not saying we cannot choose for God's word when that word presents itself to us. What Paul is saying, I believe, is that we have a sin nature and cannot, when we default to our earthly nature, do anything good. And although we have a sin nature, that sin nature does not compel us to reject anything good that is from God.

In other words, the free human will can choose to act apart from the sin nature when presented with the word of God, which speaks to every man's conscience. This is why God hated man's choice for both good and evil, because in choosing for the evil he by default reverts to an autonomous human condition, choosing for himself first, and not for God's word.

He can, however, still choose to *overcome* his selfish nature, and choose to embrace the dictates of his conscience, even though it goes against his carnal nature. As God told Cain, "You must overcome sin!"

This is a truism. When man acts out of his own independent nature, he chooses to act independent of God, proving himself to be a sinner, wanting to do sinful things. And so, Paul argues that when Man behaves according to his default carnal position, his choices are always separate from God and evil.

But this does not in the least argue against the ability of Man to choose against his selfish condition, to opt for what is right. He may choose for the right even without being saved. And he may even choose to get saved!

To summarize this more clearly, let me just say this. We can either live by earthly inspiration or by heavenly inspiration. Man is carnal and can only live by earthly inspiration if he chooses to live by that selfish nature. He naturally rejects God's voice from heaven, when he chooses to default to his selfish, earthly nature.

But the fact is, carnal men still receive God's word from heaven when they choose to obey their conscience. God wants men to do more than simply obey their conscience once in awhile. Rather, He wants them to live by His voice from heaven *all the time!* He wants them to become *heavenly creatures!*

So salvation is a matter of internalizing this heavenly voice, and not just being able to respond to that heavenly voice on occasion. Men clearly can choose to do the right thing. But God wants more that they be good and do good all the time. That only happens when we internalize Christ, making him our Lord and Savior. We then become creatures of heaven, and not creatures of the earth.

But before we can do this we must be able to receive a heavenly voice in our carnal condition. Otherwise, who can be saved? No, Paul is only saying that having chosen to be earthly creatures man is now in a default "earthly" position where they naturally choose selfishly, apart from God. This doesn't in the least mean they can't step outside of their carnal position to do the right thing. Indeed, this happens *all the time!*

 

[Randy Kluth]

In short, the Carnal Man, when choosing to act out of his carnality, cannot choose to be spiritual. To be spiritual is to work with God. The carnal nature works for Self, and does not wish to partner with God to produce the good.

The carnal man begins with a life conflicted by selfish interests and pursuant of interests outside of God's holiness. And if he chooses to remain in that place, then his carnal choices can never be spiritual choices--can never actually please God. They will always be motivated for the Self, and not for God.

But the Carnal Man does not have to choose to live by his carnal nature alone. He will always be influenced by the nature he has been born into--he will always begin from a conflicted nature. But he can choose, by his own free will, to partner with God, and to thus become an overcoming man. And with a complete commitment to overcoming sin, he can become a spiritual man.

The idea is to not just become a spiritual man for a specific good act, but rather, to become a good man, always choosing for the good. That is a true spiritual man. It is possible if we choose to follow Christ, and to internalize the Spirit he gives us.

Thus, the Carnal Man, when choosing to live in his carnal nature, cannot choose the life that partners with Christ to do good. But he can choose to overcome his carnal tendencies when he chooses to respond to the word of Christ in his conscience.

A carnal man can choose to overcome his carnality when he decides *not* to pursue his own carnal interests. Only when he chooses to remain in his carnality is he incapable of spiritual things. And that's what Paul was saying.

 

[Timtofly]

We do have the knowledge of good and evil. That came with sin, and it's consequences. Sin has a way of working out even the good to an evil end. God has a way of turning out even evil to work out for the Good of those carrying out God's purpose on earth. It is when we accuse God of being evil we fall into the dispare of being atheist and agnostic towards God. That is when we only credit humanity with good and leave God as the author of evil.

 

[farouk]

I would like to emphasize this again and again, because it appears Protestant Theology has done much harm in this regard. And I'm a Protestant! We've become sinners by nature, but our sinful condition does not prohibit us from doing good works. Whether we are saved or not, all men can do good works despite the fact they now have a Sin Nature.

It is often thought, and it is often taught, that because all men have a Sin Nature they cannot do any good, and they cannot turn to Christ. Christ must saved them because, it is thought, they cannot turn to Christ in their sinful condition.

We read that we love God because He 1st loved us. Though this is true, it is equally true that God's love has always extended to all men, making them able to respond to His word. Separating ourselves from Him by becoming sinners does not prohibit us from responding to His overt outreach of love to us by loving Him in return!

In a nutshell, since God's love is *always* reaching out to Man, Man can *always* obey God's moral imperatives, whether it's just a matter of doing good works or accepting Salvation entirely. Our will is *not* bound and preventing us from either doing good or accepting Christ. We can do good precisely because God has always been enabling Man to obey Him. God has *always* been loving us 1st so that we can always love Him in return! Being a sinner does *not* prevent us from either loving Him or doing things He wants Man to do!

Ephesians 2 says that apart from the grace of God we are dead in trespasses and sins. This is why we need to be saved by grace alone through faith in the work of Christ, 'not of works, lest any man should boast' (Ephesians 2.9).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ephesians 2 says that apart from the grace of God we are dead in trespasses and sins. This is why we need to be saved by grace alone through faith in the work of Christ, 'not of works, lest any man should boast' (Ephesians 2.9).

Yet you are not answering the question--Do we operate with Free Will when we choose Christ, or is what you refer to by "Grace" something that only God can do *apart from our will?"

I have no question in my mind that we choose individually for Salvation. But we are able to receive Salvation precisely because Christ offers it to us 1st, by "Grace."

This does not mean that God bypasses our will. Instead, he provides an opportunity to choose the right thing. We are not so lost in sin that we cannot choose to repent, unless of course we choose not to repent.

 

[farouk]

Yet you are not answering the question--Do we operate with Free Will when we choose Christ, or is what you refer to by "Grace" something that only God can do *apart from our will?"

I have no question in my mind that we choose individually for Salvation. But we are able to receive Salvation precisely because Christ offers it to us 1st, by "Grace."

This does not mean that God bypasses our will. Instead, he provides an opportunity to choose the right thing. We are not so lost in sin that we cannot choose to repent, unless of course we choose not to repent.

@Randy Kluth "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110.3). "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together..." (Ephesians 2.4-6). "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1.18).

 

[Randy Kluth]

@Randy Kluth "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110.3). "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together..." (Ephesians 2.4-6). "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1.18).

Absolutely. God reaches out to us, and always has. When He does so, we can choose to receive that help.

 

[theefaith]

I would like to emphasize this again and again, because it appears Protestant Theology has done much harm in this regard. And I'm a Protestant! We've become sinners by nature, but our sinful condition does not prohibit us from doing good works. Whether we are saved or not, all men can do good works despite the fact they now have a Sin Nature.

It is often thought, and it is often taught, that because all men have a Sin Nature they cannot do any good, and they cannot turn to Christ. Christ must saved them because, it is thought, they cannot turn to Christ in their sinful condition.

We read that we love God because He 1st loved us. Though this is true, it is equally true that God's love has always extended to all men, making them able to respond to His word. Separating ourselves from Him by becoming sinners does not prohibit us from responding to His overt outreach of love to us by loving Him in return!

In a nutshell, since God's love is *always* reaching out to Man, Man can *always* obey God's moral imperatives, whether it's just a matter of doing good works or accepting Salvation entirely. Our will is *not* bound and preventing us from either doing good or accepting Christ. We can do good precisely because God has always been enabling Man to obey Him. God has *always* been loving us 1st so that we can always love Him in return! Being a sinner does *not* prevent us from either loving Him or doing things He wants Man to do!

only those in christ can merit by their works thru grace

 

[Randy Kluth]

only those in christ can merit by their works thru grace

My point was that God's grace is *always* operating towards men, enabling them to respond to that grace. When you talk about "meriting" something, I believe you're talking about meriting Salvation? If you say that all unbelievers lack any merit at all, simply because they are not spiritually regenerated, I would disagree with you. In the book of Acts, Cornelius was known as "virtuous" even before he committed to Christ.

Acts 10.1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.

The important thing, always, is to get regenerated, spiritually. That way we merit Eternal Life--not that we earned the right to it by works, but that our works in Christ are what merit eternal life. That is, the works are coming from Christ, and we are simply piggy-backing onto those works, and participating in them.

It is one thing to choose to do good works that God has called us to do, and another thing entirely to choose to live in Christ, to be indwelt by him such that all we do is inspired by him and a participation in him. And so, when we choose to only do good works, we have some virtue, but also make the terrible decision to not follow Christ in everything. This keeps us out of Heaven.

But if we choose to embrace Christ, and to have him live in us through the Spirit, then we have a greater virtue, the virtue of doing what needs to be done all the time, to live in eternal fellowship with God. We are not perfect, but we make a decision that leads to Salvation. We merit Eternal Life simply by choosing the Salvation that Christ won for us by his works on the Cross.

One thing we *cannot* merit is the virtue of choosing to do good when we choose to do it only in our own strength. When the Scriptures say unregenerate Man cannot do good it is talking about unregenerate men who choose to do things in their carnal strength. It is not saying that unregenerate men cannot choose to behave outside of their carnal interests, and repent of their wrong doings, and choose to do something good for the right reasons.

But if they choose only to do good deeds to do good deeds, and not to embrace Christ in everything, their virtue of course will be insufficient to save them. They will be choosing to live independent of God, sometimes choosing to do good for selfish interests, and at other times choosing to do things God does not want us to do. To do good has some virtue built into it, both for the one choosing to do right, and for others who benefit from it.

But as you say, it is sometimes simply a selfish interest to do good, which does not add any credit to the unbeliever. The credit, in other words, is neutralized by the choice to reject Christ himself at the same time he chooses to do some limited good. At any rate, I'm grateful whenever someone does good, believer or unbeliever.

Gen 20.4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t she also say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands.”
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die.”