Grace

[Barrd]

We hear the word a lot, but are we quite sure we know what it really means?

The best description of Grace that I ever heard follows:



There is a story told from Civil War days before America’s slaves were freed, about a northerner who went to a slave auction and purchased a young slave girl. As they walked away from the auction, the man turned to the girl and told her, “You’re free.”
With amazement she responded, “You mean, I’m free to do whatever I want?”
“Yes,” he said.
“And to say whatever I want to say?”
“Yes, anything.”
“And to be whatever I want to be?”
“Yep.”
“And even go wherever I want to go?”
“Yes,” he answered with a smile. “You’re free to go wherever you’d like.”
She looked at him intently and replied, “Then I will go with you.”

That's grace, and that's the response that only grace can produce.

__________________

I wish I could claim credit for this...it comes from another friend of mine.

Your comments are welcome.

 

[FHII]

Are you focusing on the response or the freedom given?

See, in that story I see grace as freedom. Being a semi professional historian, I can appreciate this story, and there is much more to it than love and appreciation. There is also fear and ignorance on what to do. Kind of like when Jesus said, "will you go away also" and the apostles said, "go where?"

Three points to this story: 1. The tital freedom of grace, 2. The response, 3. The reason behind the response which is that you better stay close to God, cause its pretty dangerous out there.

In your story... you have to realize that even in the north black men and women were not safe.

 

[Barrd]

Are you focusing on the response or the freedom given?

See, in that story I see grace as freedom. Being a semi professional historian, I can appreciate this story, and there is much more to it than love and appreciation. There is also fear and ignorance on what to do. Kind of like when Jesus said, "will you go away also" and the apostles said, "go where?"

Three points to this story: 1. The tital freedom of grace, 2. The response, 3. The reason behind the response which is that you better stay close to God, cause its pretty dangerous out there.

In your story... you have to realize that even in the north black men and women were not safe.

As I told you, this was not my story. I wish I could claim credit for it, but it is not mine...

And here, in the world, no one is really safe....
Therefore, I will use the freedom my Lord has purchased for me to stay close to Him.
You will recognize me....I'll be the one holding tight to the hem of His garment...

 

[OzSpen]

As I told you, this was not my story. I wish I could claim credit for it, but it is not mine...

And here, in the world, no one is really safe....
Therefore, I will use the freedom my Lord has purchased for me to stay close to Him.
You will recognize me....I'll be the one holding tight to the hem of His garment...

The Barrd,

In the story you have given, you have indicated the grace of one person to another. What does that 'grace' mean in a Christian context? Are you saying that this grace means freedom?

Or, are you considering this grace to be like that of God towards the undeserving? in fact, the sinful undeserving's attitude and behaviour towards God deserved something worse. However, God, in knowing that all human beings are sinful and guilty before Him, extended his goodness to them, those who did not deserve it.

Thanks to God's revelation in Scripture, we know that the grace of God manifested to sinful human beings, is what God does:

(1) He is patient (forbearance) and delays punishment for sin (Ex 34:6; Rom 2:4-5; 3:25; 9:22; 1 Pet 3;20; 2 Pet 3:9, 15);

(2) In regard to salvation, God provides the proclamation of the Word of God, conviction of the Holy Spirit and prevenient grace (1 Jn 2:2; Hos 8:12; Jn 16:8-11; Matt 5:13-14; Tit 2:11). This is most often called the 'common grace of God'.

But God's special grace is seen in election and predestination (Eph 1:4-6); redemption (Eph 1:7-8); salvation (Acts 18:27); sanctification (Rom 5:21); continuing in the faith (2 Cor 12:9); receiving an unshakable kingdom (Heb 12:28); and continuing until the final revelation of Jesus Christ at his second coming (1 Pet 1:13).

Some thoughts from a fellow traveller with an Aussie accent and some Aussie spelling.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

In the story you have given, you have indicated the grace of one person to another. What does that 'grace' mean in a Christian context? Are you saying that this grace means freedom?

Or, are you considering this grace to be like that of God towards the undeserving? in fact, the sinful undeserving's attitude and behaviour towards God deserved something worse. However, God, in knowing that all human beings are sinful and guilty before Him, extended his goodness to them, those who did not deserve it.

Thanks to God's revelation in Scripture, we know that the grace of God manifested to sinful human beings, is what God does:

(1) He is patient (forbearance) and delays punishment for sin (Ex 34:6; Rom 2:4-5; 3:25; 9:22; 1 Pet 3;20; 2 Pet 3:9, 15);

(2) In regard to salvation, God provides the proclamation of the Word of God, conviction of the Holy Spirit and prevenient grace (1 Jn 2:2; Hos 8:12; Jn 16:8-11; Matt 5:13-14; Tit 2:11). This is most often called the 'common grace of God'.

But God's special grace is seen in election and predestination (Eph 1:4-6); redemption (Eph 1:7-8); salvation (Acts 18:27); sanctification (Rom 5:21); continuing in the faith (2 Cor 12:9); receiving an unshakable kingdom (Heb 12:28); and continuing until the final revelation of Jesus Christ at his second coming (1 Pet 1:13).

Some thoughts from a fellow traveller with an Aussie accent and some Aussie spelling.

Oz

The term "prevenient grace" always seemed kinda clumsy to me. The idea seems to be that God was ready with His grace before I ever thought about sinning. I'm grateful to Him for that, of course...but there should be a more elegant way to express it. Ahh, well. Who am I to try to rewrite the language? :wacko:

As I keep saying, the story I presented isn't mine....a friend of mine sent it to me.
However, I do see the beauty of it.
I was a slave. I had sold myself into slavery, and there was no hope for me.
And then, Jesus came along, and redeemed me. He bought me at a tremendous price.
He set me free.
He makes no requirement of me for this.
I may do whatever I want to do.
I may say whatever I want to say.
I may be whatever I want to be.
And I may go wherever I want to go.

I find that what I want to do is whatever pleases Him.
What I want to say is how very much I love Him.
What I want to be is His disciple.
And where I want to go is wherever He leads me.

He showed me love such as I had never known before, and all I want is to be close to Him.

 

[OzSpen]

The term "prevenient grace" always seemed kinda clumsy to me. The idea seems to be that God was ready with His grace before I ever thought about sinning. I'm grateful to Him for that, of course...but there should be a more elegant way to express it. Ahh, well. Who am I to try to rewrite the language? :wacko:

As I keep saying, the story I presented isn't mine....a friend of mine sent it to me.
However, I do see the beauty of it.
I was a slave. I had sold myself into slavery, and there was no hope for me.
And then, Jesus came along, and redeemed me. He bought me at a tremendous price.
He set me free.
He makes no requirement of me for this.
I may do whatever I want to do.
I may say whatever I want to say.
I may be whatever I want to be.
And I may go wherever I want to go.

I find that what I want to do is whatever pleases Him.
What I want to say is how very much I love Him.
What I want to be is His disciple.
And where I want to go is wherever He leads me.

He showed me love such as I had never known before, and all I want is to be close to Him.

The Baard,

You didn't really answer the content of what I wrote at #4. All you did was disagree with the theology of 2 words, 'prevenient grace', even though I had provided examples of it in 5 verses.

Prevenient grace (or common grace) is not that difficult to explain. Titus 2:11 (ESV) does it very well, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. The issue relates to the fact that human beings can't initiate salvation. If we are to be saved, God must take the initiative. Titus 2:11 makes it clear that when God takes this initiative, through his grace (common or prevenient), it frees the human will in relation to salvation.

That God has freed the will is inferred from the number of exhortations in Scripture to turn to God (see Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19). We also see it in the exhortations to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mk 1:15; Lk 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30. Then there are verses that exhort people to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; Jn 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 Jn 3:23). It would be impossible to turn to God, repent or believe if God had not in some way made it possible for such to happen for rebel sinners. He does this by sending grace before. Prevenient is based on the Latin verb, praevenio, i.e. prae = before; venio = come.

This does not mean that this prevenient/common grace enables a person to change the permanent bent of his/her will towards God (that would be Pelagianism). It does mean that a person can make that initial response to God so that God can then give repentance and faith. It is like what the author wrote in Lamentations 5:21 (NIV), 'Restore us to yourself, Lord, that we may return'. The KJV translated it as, 'Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned'. We can see this message also affirmed in Jer 31:18-19; Ps 80:3; 85:4).

Since Scripture tells us this much, then God's prevenient grace has given human beings a measure of freedom to be restored to him. We can see some of this expressed in a verse such as Rom 1:20 (ESV), 'For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse' (emphasis added).

A simple definition of prevenient or common grace is: It is the grace of God that restores to the sinner the opportunity to make a favourable response to God. My view is that it is God's grace that makes it possible for all people to be saved. God must take the initiative if human beings are to be saved. Titus 2:11 summarises prevenient grace.

Be warned! This discussion has caused theological heartache between Calvinists and Arminians, the latter supporting prevenient grace and the former opposing it. You can see on which side of the fence I come down.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Baard,

You didn't really answer the content of what I wrote at #4. All you did was disagree with the theology of 2 words, 'prevenient grace', even though I had provided examples of it in 5 verses.

Prevenient grace (or common grace) is not that difficult to explain. Titus 2:11 (ESV) does it very well, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'. The issue relates to the fact that human beings can't initiate salvation. If we are to be
saved, God must take the initiative. Titus 2:11 makes it clear that when God takes this initiative, through his grace (common or prevenient), it frees the human will in relation to salvation.

That God has freed the will is inferred from the number of exhortations in Scripture to turn to God (see Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19). We also see it in the exhortations to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mk 1:15; Lk 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30. Then there are verses that exhort people to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; Jn 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 Jn 3:23). It would be impossible to turn to God, repent or believe if God had not in some way made it possible for such to happen for rebel sinners. He does this by sending grace before. Prevenient is based on the Latin verb, praevenio, i.e. prae = before; venio = come.

I think you misunderstood me, Oz. I'm not disagreeing with the theology, so much as I am saying that the term just seems clumsy to me. There really ought to be a more elegant term for it. But I can't think of one, either.
On the other hand, I can't think of any other use for the term "prevenient".
She had gone to the store to provide prevenient cookies for the kids? Nope...doesn't work.

That God has freed the will is inferred from the number of exhortations in Scripture to turn to God (see Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19). We also see it in the exhortations to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mk 1:15; Lk 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30. Then there are verses that exhort people to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; Jn 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 Jn 3:23). It would be impossible to turn to God, repent or believe if God had not in some way made it possible for such to happen for rebel sinners. He does this by sending grace before. Prevenient is based on the Latin verb, praevenio, i.e. prae = before; venio = come.

Yes, Oz...I get the idea. Thank you.

This does not mean that this prevenient/common grace enables a person to change the permanent bent of his/her will towards God (that would be Pelagianism). It does mean that a person can make that initial response to God so that God can then give repentance and faith. It is like what the author wrote in Lamentations 5:21 (NIV), 'Restore us to yourself, Lord, that we may return'. The KJV translated it as, 'Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned'. We can see this message also affirmed in Jer 31:18-19; Ps 80:3; 85:4).

"Turn us unto thee, Oh Lord"....how beautiful.

Since Scripture tells us this much, then God's prevenient grace has given human beings a measure of freedom to be restored to him. We can see some of this expressed in a verse such as Rom 1:20 (ESV), 'For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse' (emphasis added).

I like the verse from Peter:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

A simple definition of prevenient or common grace is: It is the grace of God that restores to the sinner the opportunity to make a favourable response to God. My view is that it is God's grace that makes it possible for all people to be saved. God must take the initiative if human beings are to be saved. Titus 2:11 summarises prevenient grace.

Well, of course, it is God's grace that makes it possible for us to be saved.
It is certainly nothing we have done, or ever could do.

The passage from Titus is one of my favorites.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Be warned! This discussion has caused theological heartache between Calvinists and Arminians, the latter supporting prevenient grace and the former opposing it. You can see on which side of the fence I come down.

Of course. I should have realized.

Oz

:wub:
The Barrd

(that's two r's, Oz....to make your tongue roll a bit, in true Celtic style. Not two a's.)

 

[OzSpen]

I think you misunderstood me, Oz. I'm not disagreeing with the theology, so much as I am saying that the term just seems clumsy to me. There really ought to be a more elegant term for it. But I can't think of one, either.
On the other hand, I can't think of any other use for the term "prevenient".
She had gone to the store to provide prevenient cookies for the kids? Nope...doesn't work.

Yes, Oz...I get the idea. Thank you.


"Turn us unto thee, Oh Lord"....how beautiful.

I like the verse from Peter:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well, of course, it is God's grace that makes it possible for us to be saved.
It is certainly nothing we have done, or ever could do.

The passage from Titus is one of my favorites.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Of course. I should have realized.

:wub:
The Barrd

(that's two r's, Oz....to make your tongue roll a bit, in true Celtic style. Not two a's.)

The Baard,

In my post at #6, I did give another term for prevenient grace, i.e. common grace. Or could we say that prevenient grace is synonymous with grace that God extends to all people that enables them to come to Christ. That's enabling grace.

A little while back I wrote an article that attempts to address this: Is prevenient grace still amazing grace?
Perhaps it would be better to call it enabling, amazing grace before salvation (Titus 2:11).

In the Statement of Faith of the Society of Evangelical Arminians, part of it reads (in relation to prevenient grace):

5. We believe that humanity was created in the image of God but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience and Satan’s deception, resulting in eternal condemnation and separation from God. In and of themselves and apart from the grace of God human beings can neither think, will, nor do anything good, including believe. But the prevenient grace of God prepares and enables sinners to receive the free gift of salvation offered in Christ and his gospel. Only through the grace of God can sinners believe and so be regenerated by the Holy Spirit unto salvation and spiritual life. It is also the grace of God that enables believers to continue in faith as well as good in thought, will, and deed, so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God.

'Prevenient cookies for the kids' could be 'getting cookies so that the kids can gorge' at the appropriate time - New Year's Eve. Imagine having a theology of 'grace in preparation for the gorge'. I'm not being sacrilegious. I'm using your analogy - with an extension. 'Assisting grace' that comes before salvation is the idea. It is contrary to irresistible grace. See, How a person distorted the meaning of 2 Peter 3:9.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary online gives the meaning of prevenient as antecedent, anticipatory (source). Dictionary.com gives the meaning as, 'coming before, antecedent, anticipatory'.

How about antecedent grace or grace that comes before salvation?

May you have happy and blessed new year.

Your Aussie mate in Christ,
Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Baard,

That's Barrd, Oz.
Barrd, Luv, not Baard.
Do try to spell it right for me. I would be so grateful.

In my post at #6, I did give another term for prevenient grace, i.e. common grace. Or could we say that prevenient grace is synonymous with grace that God extends to all people that enables them to come to Christ. That's enabling grace.

Common grace....hmm. Doesn't really work for me, either....God's grace is anything but "common". It is amazing.
It's the wordsmith in me, I'm afraid, my friend. Looking for the best way to express what God's grace means to us sinners.
It's a huge concept, not given to simple terms.

A little while back I wrote an article that attempts to address this: Is prevenient grace still amazing grace?
Perhaps it would be better to call it enabling, amazing grace before salvation (Titus 2;11).

I would love to read that article. If that was supposed to be a link, it doesn't work.

In the Statement of Faith of the Society of Evangelical Arminians, part of it reads (in relation to prevenient grace):

Your links aren't working for me. Sorry, Oz.

'Prevenient cookies for the kids' could be 'getting cookies so that the kids can gorge' at the appropriate time - New Year's Eve. Imagine having a theology of 'grace in preparation for the gorge'. I'm not being sacrilegious. I'm using your analogy - with an extension. 'Assisting grace' that comes before salvation is the idea. It is contrary to irresistible grace. See,How a person distorted the meaning of 2 Peter 3:9.

The very idea that I would buy my prevenient cookies rather than baking my own from scratch is sacrilegious, Oz.

All kidding aside, though...I do understand "assisting grace that comes before salvation". I promise, I'll behave from here in.
Well, I will try to, anyhow. Just ignore the giggles...

The Merriam-Webster dictionary online gives the meaning of prevenient as antecedent, anticipatory (source). Dictionary.com gives the meaning as, 'coming before, antecedent, anticipatory'.
How about antecedent grace or grace that comes before salvation?

Darling, you are a scholar. You may use words like "prevenient"....those kinds of words come natural to you.
I am a writer. My inclination is to look for a more elegant term. Words like "prevenient" or "exigesis" or "hermenuetics" etc, that you guys toss around so easily make me stutter. But, thanks to patient people like you, Oz, I am learning.
And I appreciate you for it.

May you have happy and blessed new year.

Right back atcha, Luv.
May God rain His blessings down upon you and those you love all this coming year.

Your Aussie mate in Christ,
Oz

Your American pal,
The Barrd

(That's Barrd, with two r's)

 

[toknowthetruth]

That's one of my favorite stories as well Barrd. Speaks right to the heart of what His Grace is all about.

 

[Barrd]

That's one of my favorite stories as well Barrd. Speaks right to the heart of what His Grace is all about.

Thank you.
As I said, I wish I could take the credit for it.

And thank you for spelling Barrd right.
:wub:

 

[OzSpen]

The Barrd,

What a sinner man I am with my incorrect spelling for a spelling Nazi!

Those links to my articles will not work at the moment because they are on my son's server and his server is down at the moment for maintenance. I can't even connect to them. Be patient until he does his servicing. He is an IT professional who works from his house for a Ubuntu (Linux) company.

It's called common grace because it is common to all people. God's going before with antecedent grace has appeared to all people (Titus 2:11). That's what the common in grace means.

I also am a writer. However, the spellings are exegesis and hermeneutics and not those that you gave.

Your Down Under mate who needs to take a nap.

Oz



Will be back later.

That's Barrd, Oz.
Barrd, Luv, not Baard.
Do try to spell it right for me. I would be so grateful.

Common grace....hmm. Doesn't really work for me, either....God's grace is anything but "common". It is amazing.
It's the wordsmith in me, I'm afraid, my friend. Looking for the best way to express what God's grace means to us sinners.
It's a huge concept, not given to simple terms.

I would love to read that article. If that was supposed to be a link, it doesn't work.


Your links aren't working for me. Sorry, Oz.

The very idea that I would buy my prevenient cookies rather than baking my own from scratch is sacrilegious, Oz.

All kidding aside, though...I do understand "assisting grace that comes before salvation". I promise, I'll behave from here in.
Well, I will try to, anyhow. Just ignore the giggles...


Darling, you are a scholar. You may use words like "prevenient"....those kinds of words come natural to you.
I am a writer. My inclination is to look for a more elegant term. Words like "prevenient" or "exigesis" or "hermenuetics" etc, that you guys toss around so easily make me stutter. But, thanks to patient people like you, Oz, I am learning.
And I appreciate you for it.


Right back atcha, Luv.
May God rain His blessings down upon you and those you love all this coming year.



Your American pal,
The Barrd

(That's Barrd, with two r's)

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

What a sinner man I am with my incorrect spelling for a spelling Nazi!

Ahh, well...no one is perfect.
Barrd is a pseudonym, in honor of "me dear ol' mum. She were Celtic, doan ye know, me boyo. She were from Cardiff by the sea..."

Actually, it should have two d's, rather than two r's...I'm just fond of the sound of the "r" as the Celt pronounces it....rolling it from the tongue.
In case you hadn't guessed, it means the same thing as the English "bard".

Those links to my articles will not work at the moment because they are on my son's server and his server is down at the moment for maintenance. I can't even connect to them. Be patient until he does his servicing. He is an IT professional who works from his house for a Ubuntu (Linux) company.

I'm impressed. Send me the link again when your son gets it working, please?

It's called common grace because it is common to all people. God's going before with antecedent grace has appeared to all people (Titus 2:11). That's what the common in grace means.

I kind of got the concept, Oz.
I think I prefer the term "Amazing Grace".
Or "Loving Grace"....or "Miraculous Grace"....
Or even simple "Saving Grace."

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

That's it! "The Grace of God".
I couldn't have said it better, myself.
:wub:

I also am a writer. However, the spellings are exegesis and hermeneutics and not those that you gave.

Oops.
Ahh, well, you got me.
What can I say? I'm not that kind of a writer...

Your Down Under mate who needs to take a nap.

Will be back later.

Oz

Sleep well, my Down Under Mate.
Dream a beautiful dream.
I will not be very far behind you...I need a nap myself.

And when you awaken, I want to hear about your writing.

Your American buddy,

The Barrd

(roll the r's, Luv)

 

[OzSpen]

Ahh, well...no one is perfect.
Barrd is a pseudonym, in honor of "me dear ol' mum. She were Celtic, doan ye know, me boyo. She were from Cardiff by the sea..."

Actually, it should have two d's, rather than two r's...I'm just fond of the sound of the "r" as the Celt pronounces it....rolling it from the tongue.
In case you hadn't guessed, it means the same thing as the English "bard".

I'm impressed. Send me the link again when your son gets it working, please?

I kind of got the concept, Oz.
I think I prefer the term "Amazing Grace".
Or "Loving Grace"....or "Miraculous Grace"....
Or even simple "Saving Grace."

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

That's it! "The Grace of God".
I couldn't have said it better, myself.
:wub:

Oops.
Ahh, well, you got me.
What can I say? I'm not that kind of a writer...

Sleep well, my Down Under Mate.
Dream a beautiful dream.
I will not be very far behind you...I need a nap myself.

And when you awaken, I want to hear about your writing.

Your American buddy,

The Barrd

(roll the r's, Luv)

So your Mom was a Welsh lady.

You like the emphasis of,

I think I prefer the term "Amazing Grace".
Or "Loving Grace"....or "Miraculous Grace"....
Or even simple "Saving Grace."

The problem with that wonderful language of grace associated with salvation is that it doesn't convey the concept that the grace we are discussing comes to the whole world (Titus 2;11) before, prior to, antecedent to salvation. That's why 'prevenient grace' is an amazingly accurate term. But you don't seem to be able to get your head around that one. That's OK.

As for my publications, I have a lot of writing to do from tomorrow, January 1, as I have to launch into about 8-10 journal articles that come out of my PhD dissertation that I completed in 2015. It's a critique of some of the aspects of John Dominic Crossan's false views on Jesus' resurrection. This was a 488 page dissertation in the British system (dissertation only for the PhD). Then I'll be converting the thesis into a book, chapter 1 and an outline of the rest of the book to be sent to an online resource centre where Christian publishers can examine it.

On the popular level, I've had a number of articles published over the years. Most of them I've uploaded to my homepage (which is not online today). Here are a couple from Online Opinion, an Aussie open access journal.

• 'Parents should not be held responsible', Online Opinion, 22 September 2008.

• 'Over the Barrel', Online Opinion, 8 February 2012.

• I wrote an article for a major Brisbane newspaper exposing the dangers of nudist beaches (the article is now on my homepage), and got this kind of flack for it. He called me a 'God botherer'. Wow!

I plan to write a couple more for Online Opinion in 2016. Whenever I write on a Christian topic, the agnostics come out in force with their skepticism. However, with God's prevenient grace extended to them, it's over to the Lord to bring conviction to them. God has saved skeptics before today.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

So your Mom was a Welsh lady.

Aye, Laddie, she were. But she were raised stateside, she were, an' she would talk like a right yank. 'Twere me granda' whut spoke like folk from the old sod, boyo. Aye, an' I miss that old man, that I do.

You like the emphasis of,

I think I prefer the term "Amazing Grace".
Or "Loving Grace"....or "Miraculous Grace"....
Or even simple "Saving Grace."

I like the emphasis on the great love that purchased that grace for us.

The problem with that wonderful language of grace associated with salvation is that it doesn't convey the concept that the grace we are discussing comes to the whole world (Titus 2;11) before, prior to, antecedent to salvation. That's why 'prevenient grace' is an amazingly accurate term. But you don't seem to be able to get your head around that one. That's OK

Well, of course, grace has to come before salvation. Without grace, could there even be salvation? I would have thought that was obvious.
It isn't that I can't wrap my head around the term, Oz...it's just such a clumsy term. And it doesn't even begin to express the love...the overwhelming, amazing love, that, in spite of our sins, our Lord still came to give His life for us. My eyes sting with tears whenever I think of it. Jesus, nailed to a cruel wooden cross...oh, I'd almost rather take the punishment I deserve, than to have Him suffer so for me....

As for my publications, I have a lot of writing to do from tomorrow, January 1, as I have to launch into about 8-10 journal articles that come out of my PhD dissertation that I completed in 2015. It's a critique of some of the aspects of John Dominic Crossan's false views on Jesus' resurrection. This was a 488 page dissertation in the British system (dissertation only for the PhD). Then I'll be converting the thesis into a book, chapter 1 and an outline of the rest of the book to be sent to an online resource centre where Christian publishers can examine it.

Ahh, so you'll be busy today, then.
Of course, I never heard of this John Dominic Crossan, and I have no idea what his false views on Jesus' resurrection might be. 488 pages? Is there really that much to say? I mean...."Jesus rose from the tomb"....what else is there to say?
I guess that's why I'll never be a scholar...

On the popular level, I've had a number of articles published over the years. Most of them I've uploaded to my homepage (which is not online today). Here are a couple from Online Opinion, an Aussie open access journal.

Please, Oz, send me the link once you get it up and running again.

'Parents should not be held responsible', Online Opinion, 22 September 2008.

Once I got past the Aussie slang ("wagging" school?), I found this to be a very interesting article. We call it "skipping school" here, and parents are not fined for it....rather, then can face jail time if their precious progeny are not in their assigned seats at class time.
I agree with you that cutting their funding is counter-productive. Poverty is a huge reason why kids duck out of class...

Over the Barrel', Online Opinion, 8 February 2012.

This one made me laugh. I'm afraid the sound startled my little dog, who sleeps at the foot of my bed, and set him to barking...which woke the neighbors' dogs, who also began barking, which woke even more dogs, who began barking, which woke.....well, you get the idea. My little, 10 pound, one-eyed shih tzu started a regular dog-riot...all because I woke him from his sleep...and it's all your fault!

I wrote an article for a major Brisbane newspaper exposing the dangers of nudist beaches (the article is now on my homepage), and got this kind of flack for it. He called me a 'God botherer'.
Wow!

A God botherer from the Land Down Under.
Wow.
You are becoming quite a specimen, my Aussie Mate, an' that be a fact!

I saw you on you tube...was that you, in the "wife-beater" tee shirt?....but I couldn't understand a word you were saying.

I plan to write a couple more for Online Opinion in 2016. Whenever I write on a Christian topic, the agnostics come out in force with their skepticism. However, with God's prevenient grace extended to them, it's over to the Lord to bring conviction to them. God has saved skeptics before today.

Rejoice when the skeptics come out that way. You're reaching them. I've seen them come to mock....and stay to pray.
As you say, God has saved skeptics before today...

Oz

The Barrd

 

[OzSpen]

The Barrd,

Well, of course, grace has to come before salvation. Without grace, could there even be salvation? I would have thought that was obvious.

It isn't that I can't wrap my head around the term, Oz...it's just such a clumsy term. And it doesn't even begin to express the love...the overwhelming, amazing love, that, in spite of our sins, our Lord still came to give His life for us. My eyes sting with tears whenever I think of it. Jesus, nailed to a cruel wooden cross...oh, I'd almost rather take the punishment I deserve, than to have Him suffer so for me....

Please, Oz, send me the link once you get it up and running again.

Once I got past the Aussie slang ("wagging" school?), I found this to be a very interesting article. We call it "skipping school" here, and parents are not fined for it....rather, then can face jail time if their precious progeny are not in their assigned seats at class time.
I agree with you that cutting their funding is counter-productive. Poverty is a huge reason why kids duck out of class...


This one made me laugh. I'm afraid the sound startled my little dog, who sleeps at the foot of my bed, and set him to barking...which woke the neighbors' dogs, who also began barking, which woke even more dogs, who began barking, which woke.....well, you get the idea. My little, 10 pound, one-eyed shih tzu started a regular dog-riot...all because I woke him from his sleep...and it's all your fault!

A God botherer from the Land Down Under.
Wow.
You are becoming quite a specimen, my Aussie Mate, an' that be a fact!

I saw you on you tube...was that you, in the "wife-beater" tee shirt?....but I couldn't understand a word you were saying.

Rejoice when the skeptics come out that way. You're reaching them. I've seen them come to mock....and stay to pray.
As you say, God has saved skeptics before today...


The Barrd

I'll respond to a few of your comments:

1. Why don't you try convincing some of your Calvinistic friends that God's grace has appeared to ALL people prior to salvation (Titus 2:11)? Grace towards the elect but not towards the non-elect for Calvinism. That's why the teaching on prevenient grace is so important. It's not a throw away doctrine.

2. Prevenient grace is meant to express the goodness of God to the undeserving, i.e. the whole world of rotten sinners (John 3:16).

3. The links to the homepage are now working so that you can go back and choose them from my previous posts.

• I did write an article for the Pentecostal Evangel in 1983 on 'The man who dared to change his mind about divine healing'. I'm speaking of St. Augustine. I have it on my homepage here: St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing;
• I wrote another for Charisma in September 1984, 'St Augustine: The Skeptic Who Believed'. I can't find it online.
• May 18, 2006 I had an article on nudist beaches, 'Naked truth', in The Courier-Mail. It is no longer online at the C-M, but an abbreviated version has been copied HERE.
• 'Apologetics: A Critical Church Ministry', Contending Earnestly for the Faith, 2013.
• Etc.

4. Gladly, that wasn't me on YouTube. That was a fellow bagging me.

5. Yes, the skeptics can get stirred by some of my provocative articles. Some of them get quite nasty and want to enter into slanging matches with 'Comments'. I don't join them, except to expose the logical fallacies that some use.

May you have a blessed New Year.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[brakelite]

The more we understand our own utter complete helplessness without God, the more we understand grace. Nothing we are...nothing we hope to be or attain...can be realized without God, without grace.
"Without me ye are nothing". With Him, we can do all things. That's grace.

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being.......that's grace.

 

[M.B.]

The book of Revelation to John says that we are not in a state of grace but rather, a state of Judgement and have been for awhile. He talked about this Himself in Matthew 24. He probably knew how it ended when He said those things.

That being said, why do you interpret the fictional story in the op as Grace? Seems it's more a metaphor of the proper use of free will that ends in Grace.

So, back to the state of Judgement...

If this place is fallen due to misuse of free will (temptation of eve), and Judgement comes to destroy some and redeem others out of here, would it not make sense that those being judged are being judged on how they use the free will that they were given?

Perhaps another metaphor would be that Free Will is like a lamborghini given to a child by their Father. The child, not knowing how to drive, jumps into the lamborghini and crashes said car. Would the Father give the child unlimited lamborghinis (grace) or require that they learn how to drive and prove that they can safely and properly use it before giving them another lamborghini (judgement leading to grace)?

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,


I'll respond to a few of your comments:

1. Why don't you try convincing some of your Calvinistic friends that God's grace has appeared to ALL people prior to salvation (Titus 2:11)? Grace towards the elect but not towards the non-elect for Calvinism. That's why the teaching on prevenient grace is so important. It's not a throw away doctrine.

I have tried to explain this to some of the Calvinists I know.
I'm sure you also know about how successful I was.

2. Prevenient grace is meant to express the goodness of God to the undeserving, i.e. the whole world of rotten sinners (John 3:16).

I like the way Paul put it...Christ was in the world, reconciling the world unto Himself.

3. The links to the homepage are now working so that you can go back and choose them from my previous posts.

• I did write an article for the Pentecostal Evangel in 1983 on 'The man who dared to change his mind about divine healing'. I'm speaking of St. Augustine. I have it on my homepage here: St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing;
• I wrote another for Charisma in September 1984, 'St Augustine: The Skeptic Who Believed'. I can't find it online.
• May 18, 2006 I had an article on nudist beaches, 'Naked truth', in The Courier-Mail. It is no longer online at the C-M, but an abbreviated version has been copied HERE.
• 'Apologetics: A Critical Church Ministry', Contending Earnestly for the Faith, 2013.
• Etc.

Thanks.

4. Gladly, that wasn't me on YouTube. That was a fellow bagging me.

Whew.
That guy is one ugly dude.
I'm glad to know that isn't you.

5. Yes, the skeptics can get stirred by some of my provocative articles. Some of them get quite nasty and want to enter into slanging matches with 'Comments'. I don't join them, except to expose the logical fallacies that some use.

I've never been able to figure out why some folks who claim that they don't believe in God, fight so hard against Him...

May you have a blessed New Year.

Right back atcha Sweetie.

In Christ,
Oz

In His Love,

The Barrd

 

[Barrd]

The book of Revelation to John says that we are not in a state of grace but rather, a state of Judgement and have been for awhile. He talked about this Himself in Matthew 24. He probably knew how it ended when He said those things.

That being said, why do you interpret the fictional story in the op as Grace? Seems it's more a metaphor of the proper use of free will that ends in Grace.

So, back to the state of Judgement...

If this place is fallen due to misuse of free will (temptation of eve), and Judgement comes to destroy some and redeem others out of here, would it not make sense that those being judged are being judged on how they use the free will that they were given?

Perhaps another metaphor would be that Free Will is like a lamborghini given to a child by their Father. The child, not knowing how to drive, jumps into the lamborghini and crashes said car. Would the Father give the child unlimited lamborghinis (grace) or require that they learn how to drive and prove that they can safely and properly use it before giving them another lamborghini (judgement leading to grace)?

Faith without works is dead.

Of course, before Dad lets you get behind the wheel of that Lamborghini, He's going to make sure that you know how to drive, don't you think?
He's not only provided you with a Manual, giving you all the information you need to drive safely and arrive finally at your Destination...
But He is even willing to sit in the seat beside you, and help you to stay on the right road, and avoid problems, like potholes or other road hazards.

And you are quite right....faith without works is dead. And dead faith cannot save anyone.

Enjoy your shiny new car!