Hating Sin vs. Loving God?

[LightTheWay]

What would you say to somebody who knows God and wants to love him but chooses to live in self condemnation?

My buddy and i had a back and forth conversation in which he claims to want to first know his enemy and hate sin completely to the point that he wont fail God again. His heart is closed and is trying to get back but i believe he is doing it the wrong way. I will sumarize our points. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

His Points

• In order to win the war: Know the tactics satan will use to ruin you.
• You wont even notice that you're drifting into his trap. it will come so subtly. Know that.
• the mindset that "you are safe" may be a nuisance.
• If i focus on my hate for sin, i will not choose to sin and thus not fail God
• does not want to do the yoyo affect (wishywashy with God) so opts to wait til he can hate sin and choose God over it.
• Til i can break away from this sin i will live in self condmenation.
• Know your enemy

My Points

• Jesus won it all. Its not you who is to win in the first place (our victory comes from God, not ourselves).
• Be aware and know the enemy is waiting like a lion, but Know that God is bigger than it all.
• Who man shall i fear?
• If i focus on my love for God, i will not want to do what is unpleasing to Him and thus deny my flesh to honor Him.
• Everyday is war. I have to crucify this flesh daily and live in the spirit. (called crucify for a reason..) its a constant battle that i alone cannot win. Just cant.
• All fall short of the glory of God and alone we will always miss the mark.
• Rely on God to make the break through in our lives. we will not make it. He will. We cannot. He can. But we have to seek Him, Let Him and Obey Him. Cry out to Him.
• Living in self condmentaion is as if you are spitting in Jesus face as though his blood wasnt enough to cover your sin.
• Know your God.

I think its futil to try to hate sin. Our flesh will always crave sin. This is why we need to crucify it and live in the spirit. Whenever i used to try to and overcome sin i found that i needed to focus on who God is and rely on Him to give me the strength not to. If i tried on my own strength, i just cave in. I feel that my friend feels unworthy to be loved by God and in order to come back he needs to go clean himself first so that he can be worthy but the truth is that we cant ever be worthy for God and we cant ever wash ourselves to be even close, this is why Jesus died for us and despite this all, God still chooses to love us because He is love. we are not worthy and that is what makes it grace. I feel that many believe they need to go clean up their acts before they come to church. But Jesus says come just as you are. we are not the ones to do the cleansing!!! Jesus is... Im so frustrated that my friend is stuck in that mindset. i believe you can get caught up in sin by trying to do good but with the wrong means and with the wrong motives. so even if you are doing good does not mean you are truly doing good. Basically i believe the way to overcome is to focus on who God is. My friend thinks to Hate sin enough is to overcome it. But Love always prevails it never fails. Just wish He and many others knew that.

What really helps me to deny my fleshly desires is to say/think Jesus didnt die for..... ( me to partake in WHATEVER SIN I MIGHT BE TEMPTED WITH AT THE MOMENT. )



If you battled with self condemnation what has helped you to see that too is wrong and overcome this mindset? If you are living in self condmenation i pray you be delivered and can praise God!

God Bless!

 

[lforrest]

Hi LightTheWay:

It is good to hate sin, but trying to motivate oneself not to sin by focusing on the hatred of sin is self defeating. It is inevitable that we will fall short, when that happens the hatred towards sin will become directed inward and may contribute to depression. Depression attacks your motivations, and thus traps you in sin.

I appreciate your points, you touch on some very deep topics. I'm still interested in finding the most effective motivations and understanding them fully.

 

[LightTheWay]

lforrest

Thank you for your input! i agree to hate sin is good. i have also been interested in going deeper in understanding anger. To understand what makes me angry and why. Like when something happens to someone undeserving that makes me angry. or when i am angry because something just isnt right. Anger is a good indicator as to detecting when something is wrong. But yes i too am learning more about motivations and i am praying for my friend to be delivered from his self condemnation. Satan is so good at decieving he has had plenty of time to master the art of it. Thanks again!

 

[williemac]

In Rom. 7, we find that Paul's position was to hate sin (in so many words) and agree with the law. He also acknowledged that in his flesh there was a lust for sin. What was his conclusion? "Therefore it is no longer I who sin but sin in me." We should not miss the significance of this. Because of his agreement with the law in principle, he was set free from the guilt of sin even though he admitted he could not totally ocercome it. This was his mind set.

And in chapter 8 he begins with "therefore" there is now no condemnation. Some people jump in and insist that it has a condition that requires the walking in the spirit. However, this must be taken to mean what Paul meant by it and not what anyone else might think walking in the spirit is. He said that those who walk in the spirit have their minds set on the things of the Spirit. That is the key. It is a mind set. And where do we find any mention of a mind set? In the previous chapter. The agreement with the law and the hate for sin. That is walking in the spirit.

The mind that is set on the things of the flesh is that which hates the law and loves sin. The exact opposite. Sin is in the flesh. It does not dwell in the mind if the mind hates it or disagrees with it. Hating sin is not only legitimate it is that which sets us free from condemnation. God left us in the flesh. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). The mind is our soul. It is separate from the flesh. We are body, soul, and spirit. In fact, the body of sin, as Paul called it, is already sentenced to death. The old man is dead, crucified with Christ. We will not take this body with us into eternity. Sin lives in our bodies and will continue to do so until it dies or is done away with in the resurrection. But God has already dealth with sin in the flesh. It is what goes on between the ears that He is paying attention to. Go ahead and hate sin. He does.

I might add that some people are addicted to something and feel powerless to overcome it. Do we condemn them or show compassion? Aside from this, a person is not likely to be involved in that which he hates. It is a good start to hate sin and agree with the law. (BTW, agreement with the law is not the same as attempting to be justified by the law.)

 

[LightTheWay]

In Rom. 7, we find that Paul's position was to hate sin (in so many words) and agree with the law. He also acknowledged that in his flesh there was a lust for sin. What was his conclusion? "Therefore it is no longer I who sin but sin in me." We should not miss the significance of this. Because of his agreement with the law in principle, he was set free from the guilt of sin even though he admitted he could not totally ocercome it. This was his mind set.

And in chapter 8 he begins with "therefore" there is now no condemnation. Some people jump in and insist that it has a condition that requires the walking in the spirit. However, this must be taken to mean what Paul meant by it and not what anyone else might think walking in the spirit is. He said that those who walk in the spirit have their minds set on the things of the Spirit. That is the key. It is a mind set. And where do we find any mention of a mind set? In the previous chapter. The agreement with the law and the hate for sin. That is walking in the spirit.

The mind that is set on the things of the flesh is that which hates the law and loves sin. The exact opposite. Sin is in the flesh. It does not dwell in the mind if the mind hates it or disagrees with it. Hating sin is not only legitimate it is that which sets us free from condemnation. God left us in the flesh. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). The mind is our soul. It is separate from the flesh. We are body, soul, and spirit. In fact, the body of sin, as Paul called it, is already sentenced to death. The old man is dead, crucified with Christ. We will not take this body with us into eternity. Sin lives in our bodies and will continue to do so until it dies or is done away with in the resurrection. But God has already dealth with sin in the flesh. It is what goes on between the ears that He is paying attention to. Go ahead and hate sin. He does.

I might add that some people are addicted to something and feel powerless to overcome it. Do we condemn them or show compassion? Aside from this, a person is not likely to be involved in that which he hates. It is a good start to hate sin and agree with the law. (BTW, agreement with the law is not the same as attempting to be justified by the law.)

Hi WillieMac! Thank you for clearing that up. And when you say by agreeing with the law doesnt mean to be justified by the law do you mean to say that justifying the law would be to practice it? if so, then let me rephrase, i too agree to hate sin and practice hating it in my walk in life with Christ.

As i read my original post, i see where i could have worded some things better. While i do find that hating sin is key to deny it, i find that focusing on God to give me the strength to deny it and focus on who He is helps me so much more in addition to just hating my sin.

When i said i think that to hate sin is futile, what i meant to say and rather should have said is that i think it is futile to not desire sin as long as we live in our fleshly bodies here on earth because it is like you mentioned in our flesh. (Thanks you for distinguishing between the flesh and mindsets BTW)

so i guess what i mean to say is though hating sin is a good place to start, i find that my friend is in a pickle because he is choosing to live in self condemnation because he seems still desire to sin where as he hates it and is trying to hate it t the point where he will no longer desire it but i think we just always will while in the flesh so he is moving no where while he beats himself up for desiring something he always will in the flesh and that is why i stress that Love for God is greater than Hate for sin. Though both go hand in hand, is it wrong when your hate for sin overrides your love for God??

also he is trying to be the one to make himself no longer desire to sin. I think he should run straight to Jesus and find his strength in Him not in himself. he says to come back to God he must hate sin which i know for a fact he already does hate it, but the problem is he cant hate it to the point of not desiring it and that disgusts him so it leaves him in self condmenation but as you mentioned we do not need to live in that no more and so i see he has no momentum to move out of self condmenation if he is trying to do it on his own strength. i think it comes down to what you desire more, Sin or God.

 

[Johnlove]

[SIZE=16pt]A sinner loves the devil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] To love God one has to live the Word of God. God’s Word tells us that a Christian does not sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A sinner loves Satan. [/SIZE]

 

[Born_Again]

lforrest

Thank you for your input! i agree to hate sin is good. i have also been interested in going deeper in understanding anger. To understand what makes me angry and why. Like when something happens to someone undeserving that makes me angry. or when i am angry because something just isnt right. Anger is a good indicator as to detecting when something is wrong. But yes i too am learning more about motivations and i am praying for my friend to be delivered from his self condemnation. Satan is so good at decieving he has had plenty of time to master the art of it. Thanks again!

We are going to get angry. It cant be avoided. Its what we do with the anger. To hate sin it all well and fine. But to use that as your motivation is wrong. If you live for the word of God then you are already ahead of the sin game. Oddly, in my own accounts with sin, I feel the "tug" of the Spirit saying I know better than this and I really should reconsider. When the urge to sin arises, pray for guidance. My two cents, any way.

 

[williemac]

[SIZE=16pt]A sinner loves the devil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] To love God one has to live the Word of God. God’s Word tells us that a Christian does not sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A sinner loves Satan. [/SIZE]

In reply to the question asked of me in #5 regarding justification by law, this reply comes close to what I meant. We are told that sin is transgression of law. Therefore when a person sins he is breaking the law of God. And when he abstains from sin he by default is keeping the law.
My comment is in regards to justification for life. In that category, we are justified by faith...period. Our keeping ourselves in good moral behavior is important, but not for the purpose of gettng or keeping ourselves saved.

Here is my understanding on what John was talking about when he said a person born of God does not sin. For the record, he didn't stop there but added..." nor can he sin". Incredible. We cannot sin. But in 1John 2:1, John said if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father (Jesus). Is John double minded? Is he contradicting himself?

No: In Eph.4:24, Paul advises them to put on the new man which WAS created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. The fact is, the born again person has both the righteous nature of God in his new spirit and the sinfulness of man in his flesh. So in truth, that which is born of God cannot sin. The eternal part of us is righteous according to Paul. The temporal part of us...the flesh...cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Because the flesh (the old man) carries a death sentence, having been positionally crucified with Christ.
In God's eyes, the flesh is already dead. Thus God has successfully destroyed the devil's work in the born again person. In God's eyes, the spirit is alive and righteous, having the seed of Christ. He sees us and relates to us according to the new man, thanks to our advocate and High Priest, Jesus.

If you want a proof text, it is found in John 5:24, where He assures us that we have passed from death to life and are no longer judged.

Therefore in our daily experience we have the flesh lusting against our righteous spirit and the spirit lusting against our unrighteous flesh. The third party is our soul. The soul is neutral in terms of nature, and can be swayed from one day to the next, from one moment to the next, to act according to one or the other nature within. On the judgment seat of Christ, Jesus will examine the life and works of His church members individually and there will be both loss and reward handed out. But as the bible says, even in loss..."he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" . Obviously the judgment Jesus referred to in John 5:24 is the judgment unto life or death. The judgment we receive from Jesus is not to determine our eternal life. That has already been granted.

In 1John there was no intention to cause us to doubt our inheritance based on our performance. In fact in 5: 4, he states that he who is born of God overcomes the world...." and this is the victory that overcomes the world- OUR FAITH".

On sites such as this and in other places, even in many churches, it has come to my observation that faith indeed is under attack in these last days.

Now, in saying that, the typical reply is from James who stated that faith without works is dead. My usual reply to that is to advise that one actually takes the time to read the letter and examine the context. James was disappointed with his converted Jewish brothers' poor showing of love toward one another. He was exhorting them to improvement in this area when he made reference to the law with them. He did this because of their familiarity with law, so he was able to draw from this to give them a comparison. However, in no way was he suggesting that they would be justified for life by the keeping of law. To better understand the context, it would be appropriate to read his comment from that perspective, which would be worded... "faith without love is dead" . Love is the context. Love is the main fruit of the Spirit. Love is the fulfillment of the law. There are two commandments mentioned by John in 1John3:23, which are to " believe on the Lord Jesus, and love one another, just as He gave us commandment".

faith and love. That's it. The positive side of hating sin is to love one another.

 

[aspen]

'Trying not to sin first'......ugh

Taking time to perfect yourself before obeying God by loving your neighbor is doing exactly what he is afraid of doing - drifting into the Devils snare (or whatever he stated).

Loving perfectly is obeying God and when it is achieved (as Christ did on earth), sin will be impossible. Of course, that is not possible for us on earth, but it will be in Heaven. Right now we are called to practice our sanctification by loving outwardly, here on Earth.

Trying to vainly achieve perfection without loving outwardly is like holding your breath underwater when you have scuba gear.......all you need is the faith necessary to take a breath

 

[williemac]

'Trying not to sin first'......ugh

Taking time to perfect yourself before obeying God by loving your neighbor is doing exactly what he is afraid of doing - drifting into the Devils snare (or whatever he stated).

Loving perfectly is obeying God and when it is achieved (as Christ did on earth), sin will be impossible. Of course, that is not possible for us on earth, but it will be in Heaven. Right now we are called to practice our sanctification by loving outwardly, here on Earth.

Trying to vainly achieve perfection without loving outwardly is like holding your breath underwater when you have scuba gear.......all you need is the faith necessary to take a breath

nice reply. I like your analogy.

 

[LightTheWay]

'Trying not to sin first'......ugh

Taking time to perfect yourself before obeying God by loving your neighbor is doing exactly what he is afraid of doing - drifting into the Devils snare (or whatever he stated).

Loving perfectly is obeying God and when it is achieved (as Christ did on earth), sin will be impossible. Of course, that is not possible for us on earth, but it will be in Heaven. Right now we are called to practice our sanctification by loving outwardly, here on Earth.

Trying to vainly achieve perfection without loving outwardly is like holding your breath underwater when you have scuba gear.......all you need is the faith necessary to take a breath

Thank you for your answer! I'll be sure to share it with my friend

 

[KingJ]

What would you say to somebody who knows God and wants to love him but chooses to live in self condemnation?

My buddy and i had a back and forth conversation in which he claims to want to first know his enemy and hate sin completely to the point that he wont fail God again. His heart is closed and is trying to get back but i believe he is doing it the wrong way. I will sumarize our points. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

It seems you believe super grace and that you assume your friend believes works based salvation.

Your friend is right. We are to HATE sin Rom 12:9. You are also right, we cannot save ourselves Rom 7:15. Salvation is a gift. Salvation is a plane waiting to leave the airport. We need to get to the airport. Think of those in Paradise and Hades OT. Both had sin. Those in paradise hated sin. Those in Hades loved sin John 3:19.

We must never be 100% confident that we have made it 1 Cor 10:12. I am not proposing we live in fear of losing our salvation either. We are to continue to judge ourselves in fear and trembling before God 1 Cor 11:31.

Phil 2:12 And so, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I am absent, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?