Heaven (Matthew 4:17)

[VictoryinJesus]

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

Just to share…I can relate to the two men who went up to pray. Sometimes my being the Pharisee thinking “thank God I am not like other men!” …those arrogant thoughts, or judgmental thoughts deep within me that whisper “thank God you are not like that.” Deceived I do this, and I do that. But then there is also the reminder often, maybe by something I’ve did or said where I’m reminded I am like other men. Then I can relate to the publican “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Not to change who these two men were that went up to pray…but for me there is something to be learned in I can relate to being at some point, similar to both. Thinking back a couple years ago on what I prayed and ask for…I’m so embarrassed.

 

[amadeus]

never once were you in my thoughts to imply you had claimed such. I was speaking only from what I’ve often heard only. Even debating when did this being caught up to the the third heaven of Paul take place(if I remember it correctly) suggested possibly at when he was drawn out of the city, stoned and it was proposed that he was dead. I was also only sharing a question I’ve had.

I am sorry that I was abrupt if I was. I do understand your point, but only based on hearsay from Internet forums like this one. I have never belonged to any such mainstream churches other than Catholic. I did not even own a Bible then.

When an answer does come to me on questions like this, is it some man's idea or is it of God?

In this case I don't have an answer for sure and can only parrot bits and pieces I have heard from others and/or cite what the scripture actually reads.

I believe that someone was in 3rd heaven as per the quotes from scripture because they fit what I have found in other scriptures, but whether it was Paul, himself, I cannot say. I am not sure it really is important. So much for my answer. Sorry.

 

[Enoch111]

Where was Jesus when he spoke these words? "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

This verse is frequently misunderstood and misrepresented. If you read it carefully Jesus was BOTH on earth and in Heaven at one and the same time when He spoke these words. How is it be possible unless He is God? Therefore He indirectly says that He is God (because the Son of Man CAME DOWN from Heaven), and at the same time He says that His descent from Heaven and His future ascension to Heaven are totally unique. Only God could do what Jesus did (and would do after His resurrection).

This verse does NOT contradict the fact the both Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven, nor the fact that all the OT saints as well as all the NT saints who have passed on are now in Heaven.

To falsely claim that Heaven is subjectively on earth for whatever reason is pure nonsense. Heaven (God's Heaven which is the "third heaven") is an actual region far about outer space, in which there is a cubic city designed and constructed by God. This city is the New Jerusalem, which is 1500 cubic miles in dimension. Abraham looked for this city which has twelve foundations a long time ago.

 

[amadeus]

Just to share…I can relate to the two men who went up to pray. Sometimes my being the Pharisee thinking “thank God I am not like other men!” …those arrogant thoughts, or judgmental thoughts deep within me that whisper “thank God you are not like that.” Deceived I do this, and I do that. But then there is also the reminder often, maybe by something I’ve did or said where I’m reminded I am like other men. Then I can relate to the publican “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Not to change who these two men were that went up to pray…but for me there is something to be learned in I can relate to being at some point, similar to both. Thinking back a couple years ago on what I prayed and ask for…I’m so embarrassed.

Perhaps the embarrassment is here a good thing. It is an admission of fallibility. We are, I believe, all fallible until we have overcome as Jesus did. This means we have failed, and we will fail again until we have fully and completely overcome.

Who has done that? Unless we have already so overcome, how could be possibly recognize another person as being such an absolute overcomer? Could that be the "then" of I Corinthians 13:12?

The way there is surely the pathway of the publican. Probably lots of people will speak of traveling that way, but when it comes down to it, how many will both choose it and follow it? How hard is that?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I believe that someone was in 3rd heaven as per the quotes from scripture because they fit what I have found in other scriptures, but whether it was Paul, himself, I cannot say. I am not sure it really is important.

Neither am I sure it is important. Except maybe for my coming to terms with how I also struggle with as you mentioned “parroting bits and pieces I have heard from others and/or cite what the scripture actually reads.” That is has been difficult, all the things I’ve heard over the years and when A question like this one comes up…maybe the question unimportant itself…it still makes me stop and consider before speaking.

 

[amadeus]

This verse is frequently misunderstood and misrepresented. If you read it carefully Jesus was BOTH on earth and in Heaven at one and the same time when He spoke these words. How is it be possible unless He is God? Therefore He indirectly says that He is God (because the Son of Man CAME DOWN from Heaven), and at the same time He says that His descent from Heaven and His future ascension to Heaven are totally unique. Only God could do what Jesus did (and would do after His resurrection).

This verse does NOT contradict the fact the both Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven, nor the fact that all the OT saints as well as all the NT saints who have passed on are now in Heaven.

To falsely claim that Heaven is subjectively on earth for whatever reason is pure nonsense. Heaven (God's Heaven which is the "third heaven") is an actual region far about outer space, in which there is a cubic city designed and constructed by God. This city is the New Jerusalem, which is 1500 cubic miles in dimension. Abraham looked for this city which has twelve foundations a long time ago.

I will not speak against your scenario, although it is not mine. However, is not God's the one that ultimately matters?

Give God the glory!

 

[Enoch111]

However, is not God's the one that ultimately matters?

Absolutely. Therefore if God matters, then His throne matters, and so does His Heaven (which He also calls His throne). There is absolutely no excuse for any Christian to either dismiss Heaven, or claim that no one is going to Heaven.

 

[amadeus]

Neither am I sure it is important. Except maybe for my coming to terms with how I also struggle with as you mentioned “parroting bits and pieces I have heard from others and/or cite what the scripture actually reads.” That is has been difficult, all the things I’ve heard over the years and when A question like this one comes up…maybe the question unimportant itself…it still makes me stop and consider before speaking.

Perhaps we are being helped... to learn to be content with what we have. Should we desire more? Does God want us to have more?

When our desires are equal to our needs and they in turn are equal to what God considers our needs, will we not then be where He does want us to be? I believe this!

 

[amadeus]

Absolutely. Therefore if God matters, then His throne matters, and so does His Heaven (which He also calls His throne). There is absolutely no excuse for any Christian to either dismiss Heaven, or claim that no one is going to Heaven.

Communication between believers is quite often a real problem as we see and have seen on this forum. It is never a problem for God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Perhaps we are being helped... to learn to be content with what we have. Should we desire more? Does God want us to have more?

When our desires are equal to our needs and they in turn are equal to what God considers our needs, will we not then be where He does want us to be? I believe this!

God is good. With all my sometimes pointless questions and multiple diversions and confusions, this is one thing that I’m reminded of while studying His word. A constant wow God is no joke good. I was reading back through your responses here this morning. As always, You gave helpful input!…thank you.

As far as the topic of heaven being discussed here on this thread. (This is not directed at you but only giving an opinion on the topic). in my opinion the throne of God, for the place of His habitation, is the heart and mind created anew in Christ where Christ stands at the right hand of the poor; where satan stood to resist but was removed and Christ was given place as the Heir to whom belongs all things For example
Romans 10:6-8 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above [7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) [8] But what saith it? The word is near thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


Love Psalm 74:20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty.

to me (wrong or right) the dark places of the earth full of the habitation of cruelty is the heart of man. Our heart. In the passage where they come not to the light for their deeds to be made known that those deeds are cruel…the question for me becomes not how many has overcome all as Christ has overcome, but instead how many still prefer to hide cruelty in secret dark places within the heart? Do I hide cruelty in my heart or does Christ’s light bring all things out into the open for His habitation and where is this habitation or abode …desired…of God? As in the OT “I will give you the hidden things of darkness, those secret things hidden in secret” does God bring them out into the Light of Christ?

 

[amadeus]

God is good. With all my sometimes pointless questions and multiple diversions and confusions, this is one thing that I’m reminded of while studying His word.

Are your questions pointless? To others at times, it may seem so, but how does God see them? Perhaps He puts them, or at least some of them, into your heart to help you consider within yourself where you are at the moment and where you should be.

Even if no one, or only few, responds to your questions, for you alone for certain then have they not served a purpose... God's purpose for you?

A constant wow God is no joke good.

"A constant wow God is no joke good"

When I read that the first time, I thought there must be a typo involved, but when I re-read it, I understood what you were saying. I do sincerely agree! Here is my own paraphrase that may help other readers understand, but it is no improvement at all on what you said, which very good:

Wow, without ceasing= God! And He is without joking at all, Good!

I was reading back through your responses here this morning. As always, You gave helpful input!…thank you.

Sometimes God put things in my heart, which I cannot put into words that others can really understand. I guess those are for me in particular.

Then other times when just at the moment a person asks a question or expresses a thought in writing, God has something for that person through me. Those two situations are definite good ones.

There are also too many times when it is not so. If something really is needed, will not God then still take up the slack? Who better to determine need and to take up slack?

As far as the topic of heaven being discussed here on this thread. (This is not directed at you but only giving an opinion on the topic). in my opinion the throne of God, for the place of His habitation, is the heart and mind created anew in Christ where Christ stands at the right hand of the poor; where satan stood to resist but was removed and Christ was given place as the Heir to whom belongs all things For example
Romans 10:6-8 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above [7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) [8] But what saith it? The word is near thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Wonderful verses, which fit perfectly!

Sometimes knowing just what and where [if either interrogative is appropriate to the question] heaven (and hell too) is, may not ultimately matter to a person.

On the other hand, having it so close to us, could be very important indeed. Some people will argue strongly one way or the other on this question, and so then this could make it important to them and/or to their opposers.

Why is it that some people apparently get angry and insistent or sarcastic when someone does not go along with them on questions like this? This last, I might ask, I guess, about any anger and sarcasm manifested by one who supposed believes God...

Love Psalm 74:20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty.

I am always reminded anytime I read the word, earth, or any word that may be used to refer to what is beneath our feet, be it planet or simply dust/dirt, that we, or at least the vessel containing or bounding us, consists of the same or very similar ingredients as planet Earth. We are little earths, are we not, dwelling on top of planet Earth or at least on the habitable parts?

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

As long as we remain "habitations of cruelty" can God dwell in us or in any part of us unprepared to be His dwelling place?

Compare our little "earth" to the larger planet Earth on which we dwell. Who lives on the oceans, 3/4 of the surface? Of the remaining 1/4 how inhabitable are the deserts and the arctic regions? How many live on top of the very highest mountains? How habitable is planet Earth? How habitable is our little bit of earth for Jesus? Are we becoming a better place for him to rest his head, the Head of the Body of Christ? Can he rest on us? Can we qualify as part of his Body? If not, why not?

to me (wrong or right) the dark places of the earth full of the habitation of cruelty is the heart of man. Our heart. In the passage where they come not to the light for their deeds to be made known that those deeds are cruel…the question for me becomes not how many has overcome all as Christ has overcome, but instead how many still prefer to hide cruelty in secret dark places within the heart? Do I hide cruelty in my heart or does Christ’s light bring all things out into the open for His habitation and where is this habitation or abode …desired…of God?

"Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed;
I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids,
Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob." Psalm 132:3-5

"For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it." Psalm 132:13-14

What is Zion and what does it lack?


!wyc Tsiyown (tsee-yone'); Proper Name Location, Strong #: 6726

Zion = "parched place"

1. 
   
   
   • another name for Jerusalem especially in the prophetic books

Does not Zion alone lack Living Water?

As in the OT “I will give you the hidden things of darkness, those secret things hidden in secret” does God bring them out into the Light of Christ?

Amen!