Hell is not real and christ offers no salvation... What do you say to this?

[LightTheWay]

The statements below are my local papers opinion section (I changed the place to someplace and name of the newspaper to newspaper) :


I am sure you will not print this opinion piece because it goes against what most people believe here on someplace, and the job of the newspaper is to sell newspapers, not to educate or inform. I support the newspapers's right to the freedom of the press covered under the First Amendment, as well as one's right to religion, but to print religious fiction and pass it off as anything but diminishes the credibility of an otherwise excellent news source.
The fiction article I read on the "Opinion" page of the Tuesday Dec. 2 printing of this newspaper is quite delusional. The article in question is titled the exact opposite of this article, and makes illogical unsubstantiated claims about hell and Jesus, taken from a fantasy book known as the Bible. Beliefs should not be promoted as fact when coming from a public news outlet. In case you read the article in question and are confused, here is the truth on the subject: No one has proven the existence of god or a soul or hell, and when you die your body goes in the ground and decays.
One is free to believe whatever one chooses, but the newspaper and other authority figures should not promote religious information, despite personal beliefs. The newspaper has a duty to provide accurate news to the public. Yes, the article in question was printed in the "Opinion" section, but a headline such as "Hell is real, but Christ offers salvation" will not be discerned by most beyond thinking that it is true, because it is in the newspaper.
Stating that, "Hell is real..." and then offering the Bible as support is akin to someone saying, "Harry Potter is real because it says so in these books about Harry Potter." I'm sure most would agree that printing a headline stating "Voldemort is real, but Harry Potter offers us salvation," would be quite misleading. Just as one should be embarrassed to refer to oneself as a "muggle" using this criterion, one should feel the same embarrassment to refer to oneself as a "Christian" based on this same criterion.
Here are some facts that can be supported by multiple sources of evidence: The Big Bang occurred 13.8 billion years ago, humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor, and Harry Potter is a series of fantasy books. There is no scientific proof of god or hell or a soul, and no prayer has ever been answered. Believing in something does not make it true. Just because it is in print, does not make it fact. Find out for yourself what is true, and if you go looking for evidence of hell and Jesus, good luck, because there is not any that holds up against the scientific method. Science does not care what you believe.

End of article.... Hmm

The article on dec 2 refered to above was the article that follows:

Make no mistake, hell is very real and everyone will exist eternally, either in heaven or hell. The good news is that where you spend it is up to you, since when Jesus gave us his free gift of salvation by grace, by dying on the cross for our sins, (Ephesians 2:8,9), he also gave us the free will to either accept or reject it. For the righteous, "To be absent from the body, to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8). For the unrighteous, "It is appointed for man to die once, then after that the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) in Hades temporarily, in torment then judged and go into the "lake of fire," the final hell, eternal punishment for the unrepentant who rejected Christ as the "only" way to salvation.
Choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19). Now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).
Jesus warned not to be afraid of those who can kill you since they can't harm you anymore, but rather, fear the one who can kill you and has the power to cast you into hell (Luke 12:4-5). "Be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" (Matthew 10:28). He also had plenty to say about people outside of heaven who will be cast into outer darkness where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12, 13:41-42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30 and Luke 13:27-28).
Torment will be:
• Physical: The rich man said to Abraham, "For I am tormented in this flame, send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue" (Luke 16:24). The unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire, tormented day and night forever (Revelations 14:11, 19:20, 20:10). "In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
• Mental: "He is comforted, you are tormented" (Luke 16:25).
• Spiritual: "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-9).
• Just: At different degrees. God's punishment will be less for some (Matthew 11:20-24) and double for others (Revelation 18:5,6).
Know this -- hell is eternal separation from God, for he is holy. The attribute most used in the Bible, even more than loving, merciful or kind, is that he is holy. Sin cannot enter heaven and be in the presence of a holy God.
Christ was the only perfect sinless one (1 Peter 1:19, 2:22) who suffered and died for all of us, for all time (Hebrews 10:10,12,14). "God made him to be sin for us for that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). "The blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). "God sent his son to be the propitiation/substitute for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2, 4:10).
Pushing the concept of purgatory gives a person false hope that he can die in his sin because he will be prayed into heaven, totally negating the fact that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22).
By the way, when you read this in context, the scripture that talks about our works being tested by fire isn't about purgatory but rather about the rewards that the righteous believers will be receiving, not the unrighteous. Just as there are varying degrees of punishment in hell for the latter, there will be varying degrees of rewards in heaven for the righteous as well (1 Corinthians 3:13-16). God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6).
Pope John Paul II said the essential characteristics of heaven, hell and purgatory is that they are "states of being" rather than places. Very misleading, dangerous false teaching. Only God is infallible, not man.

end of article



SO i would like whoever feels like responding to respond to the first article. What would you say to this guy/girl? You could respond as if you were talking to the author of the first article. I would greatly appreciate the responses... What do you think..

Also note: that the newspaper has a requirement for all letters written to the opinion section that states: all claims or facts must be substantiated.

 

[lforrest]

I don't think it is possible to reach such people on an intellectual level. Merely state your testimony, what you believe and be as genuine as possible. People can smell something fishy from a great distance, and that article reeks. When people see others displaying the love of Christ that speaks louder than any letter that flaunts the liberal agenda.

 

[LightTheWay]

I don't think it is possible to reach such people on an intellectual level. Merely state your testimony, what you believe and be as genuine as possible. People can smell something fishy from a great distance, and that article reeks. When people see others displaying the love of Christ that speaks louder than any letter that flaunts the liberal agenda.

Thanks for your reply lforrest

 

[Born_Again]

I don't think it is possible to reach such people on an intellectual level. Merely state your testimony, what you believe and be as genuine as possible. People can smell something fishy from a great distance, and that article reeks. When people see others displaying the love of Christ that speaks louder than any letter that flaunts the liberal agenda.

Yea, I wasn't sure how to answer this one but that pretty much sums it up. Give your testimony and live by it. I read that post this morning and just kinda rolled my eyes. We know what the truth is.

 

[pompadour]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
pomp.

 

[Born_Again]

I'm going to assume the person who wrote the article is relatively young and may lack maturity. He is most likely writing these things just to get a rise out of people. if you have testified to him, solidly, then he has been warned. I personally would give him a Bible. Tell him to give it a shot and tell him if it's wrong, what's the worst that could happen. It's sad to see this happening in the world. This is why it is so important for us as Christians to be a true representation of Christ and what He stands for.

 

[LightTheWay]

I'm going to assume the person who wrote the article is relatively young and may lack maturity. He is most likely writing these things just to get a rise out of people. if you have testified to him, solidly, then he has been warned. I personally would give him a Bible. Tell him to give it a shot and tell him if it's wrong, what's the worst that could happen. It's sad to see this happening in the world. This is why it is so important for us as Christians to be a true representation of Christ and what He stands for.

He is acutally in his 30's, very knowledgable, and is a good person. He just cant see why God allows suffering and the talkers not walkers also made the church look bad to him. I gave him a bible last christmas and have been praying for him. Please Pray for his heart to be pursued by the Holy Spirit and softened to hear God speak into his life and transform it.

I will keep shining Jesus' light til the day that all of heaven rejoices over his soul.

Thank You

 

[Born_Again]

Just remember, God gave us free will. Man chose evil. So when questioned about why does God let bad things happen.....God let us decide for ourselves, we chose to let a lot of bad things happen. We chose evil. Every man was given the opportunity to receive the Holy Spirit and some rejected it. And Gods' will is God's will.

 

[Guestman]

Those who are genuine Christians will not necessarily turn such a person away, but will follow in Jesus "footsteps" to reach out to those who have a different "opinion", even one that is far fetched.(1 Pet 2:21) The apostle Paul dealt with many individuals who had beliefs that were "out of this world".

For example, when Paul was in the city of Thessalonica, he reasoned from the Scriptures with the Jews for "three sabbaths".(Acts 17:2) He did not argue but rather went "explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, saying: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you.”(Acts 17:3)

What resulted from Paul's willingness to reason with the Jews as well as others ? Acts says: "As a result, some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and so did a great multitude of the Greeks who worshipped God, along with quite a few of the principal women."(Acts 17:4) Paul's reasoning with people rather than arguing produced a tremendous outcome, in which enough listened to Paul's words as a teacher (not arguer) that a congregation came to be formed in Thessalonica, later writing 2 letters to them.

Paul wrote of how he accomplished this: "To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some."(1 Cor 9:20-22)

Skillful preaching and teaching requires that the "teacher" be flexible, speaking on a person's level rather than "down to him", and using techniques and "tools" that helps a person to reason on facts that hopefully leads a person to the conclusion that God is real and can be known.

Many among the churches have an aloof attitude towards others, even those of another religious "Christian" faith or even among those who are of the same religious "faith". These ones are unwilling to share Bible "truths" with others, perhaps feeling that "there are two things that I do not discuss - religion and politics". Yet, they still feel that they are "Christian" despite not following Jesus as the "model" or "example".(1 Pet 2:21)

But true Christians look for opportunities to share the Bible's message about God's Kingdom removing all wickedness from the earth and transforming the earth into a paradise (Matt 5:5), as Jesus did.(Luke 8:1: 23:43)

Jesus, in giving the command to "go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations......teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you", set the "tone" for what a genuine Christian will be doing, consistently trying to open a person's mind and heart to "the good news of the Kingdom", teaching if possible what is required for a person to measure up to our Maker, Jehovah God's holy standards. Many have thus changed their immoral and unclean ways, stripping off the "old personality" and putting on the "new personality".(Col 3:9, 10)

Very few who call themselves "Christian" are willing to take on Jesus words and make known the "good news of the Kingdom" (Matt 24:14) from "house to house"(Acts 20:20), and then patiently teaching honest-hearted ones to "know God".(John 17:3)

 

[truthquest]

Those who are genuine Christians will not necessarily turn such a person away, but will follow in Jesus "footsteps" to reach out to those who have a different "opinion", even one that is far fetched.(1 Pet 2:21) The apostle Paul dealt with many individuals who had beliefs that were "out of this world".

For example, when Paul was in the city of Thessalonica, he reasoned from the Scriptures with the Jews for "three sabbaths".(Acts 17:2) He did not argue but rather went "explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, saying: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you.”(Acts 17:3)

What resulted from Paul's willingness to reason with the Jews as well as others ? Acts says: "As a result, some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and so did a great multitude of the Greeks who worshipped God, along with quite a few of the principal women."(Acts 17:4) Paul's reasoning with people rather than arguing produced a tremendous outcome, in which enough listened to Paul's words as a teacher (not arguer) that a congregation came to be formed in Thessalonica, later writing 2 letters to them.

Paul wrote of how he accomplished this: "To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some."(1 Cor 9:20-22)

Skillful preaching and teaching requires that the "teacher" be flexible, speaking on a person's level rather than "down to him", and using techniques and "tools" that helps a person to reason on facts that hopefully leads a person to the conclusion that God is real and can be known.

Many among the churches have an aloof attitude towards others, even those of another religious "Christian" faith or even among those who are of the same religious "faith". These ones are unwilling to share Bible "truths" with others, perhaps feeling that "there are two things that I do not discuss - religion and politics". Yet, they still feel that they are "Christian" despite not following Jesus as the "model" or "example".(1 Pet 2:21)

But true Christians look for opportunities to share the Bible's message about God's Kingdom removing all wickedness from the earth and transforming the earth into a paradise (Matt 5:5), as Jesus did.(Luke 8:1: 23:43)

Jesus, in giving the command to "go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations......teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you", set the "tone" for what a genuine Christian will be doing, consistently trying to open a person's mind and heart to "the good news of the Kingdom", teaching if possible what is required for a person to measure up to our Maker, Jehovah God's holy standards. Many have thus changed their immoral and unclean ways, stripping off the "old personality" and putting on the "new personality".(Col 3:9, 10)

Very few who call themselves "Christian" are willing to take on Jesus words and make known the "good news of the Kingdom" (Matt 24:14) from "house to house"(Acts 20:20), and then patiently teaching honest-hearted ones to "know God".(John 17:3)

Guestman, these true Christians you speak of, how do they view anyone else who is not a JW? Isn't it true that they view them as bad association, worldly, in the empire of false religion and that they are going to be destroyed in Armageddon? ....I posted a picture from the Revelation book published by the Society and it's in the Narrow Gate thread. I wonder if you could take a look at that picture and tell me what you think about it.

 

[truthquest]

Your silence speaks volumes, Guestman.

 

[StarTemple]

Apparently chimps stopped evolving and modern man started devolving. Thus it appears we have a green horn who does not understand these topics are full of dissension within the scientific community itself. Maybe it is chimps who have evolved from man. In the meantime if the physical proves delusional the spiritual will be incomprehensible. Eyes have to be opened before one can see.

 

[michaelvpardo]

With individuals such as the one who wrote the first opinion, I typically start by explaining that "science" is a philosophy and world view which builds upon fact, but still relies on man's ability to make sense of his experience of the world. I try to explain that science is the art of creating models of reality to explain observed phenomena and that those models are commonly discarded when more "facts" are examined which don't fit the model, hence science is not immutable, but constantly changing and based upon practical application (the scientific method requires reproducibility of experimental data.) I would then point out that those "theories" which are most highly regarded by atheist and immoral types cannot be proven, but are accepted based solely upon evidence which may be incorrectly interpreted and support a godless view of reality. E.g.: Evolution has never actually been observed in anything that exists at a multicellular level. The theory itself was developed based upon a misinterpretation of phenotypic variation observed by Darwin in the Galapagos Islands. A modern understanding of genetics provides a reasonable explanation of a driving mechanism behind the theory, gene mutation, while disregarding the observed fact that the majority of mutations are either lethal or amount to a failure in a point of protein production for some biological process, all of which are required for a normal function within the organism. I try to point out that dating techniques for anything not historical have a certain degree of error which gets greater as the objects get "older" and remain unproven since no one has gone back in time to validate the technique. I try to point out that the laws of thermodynamics suggest that nothing of any high order of complexity should ever exist, and the evidence that complex objects do exist implies that they have been created.

The truth is that people who take a rigid stance against the existence of God, generally have some deep bitterness within them caused by hurts either real or imagined that they must either blame upon God or upon chance. Since chance leaves them unaccountable for their own behavior, it remains the obvious choice of the wicked. Its only when such people can recognize the love that God has shed abroad in the hearts of His children that they might be moved to receive Him.

 

[[email protected]]

The statements below are my local papers opinion section (I changed the place to someplace and name of the newspaper to newspaper) :
Beliefs should not be promoted as fact when coming from a public news outlet. In case you read the article in question and are confused, here is the truth on the subject: No one has proven the existence of god or a soul or hell, and when you die your body goes in the ground and decays.


Here are some facts that can be supported by multiple sources of evidence: The Big Bang occurred 13.8 billion years ago, humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor, and Harry Potter is a series of fantasy books. There is no scientific proof of god or hell or a soul, and no prayer has ever been answered. Believing in something does not make it true. Just because it is in print, does not make it fact. Find out for yourself what is true, and if you go looking for evidence of hell and Jesus, good luck, because there is not any that holds up against the scientific method. Science does not care what you believe.

End of article.... Hmm

The article on dec 2 refered to above was the article that follows:

Make no mistake, hell is very real and everyone will exist eternally, either in heaven or hell. The good news is that where you spend it is up to you, since when Jesus gave us his free gift of salvation by grace, by dying on the cross for our sins, (Ephesians 2:8,9), he also gave us the free will to either accept or reject it. For the righteous, "To be absent from the body, to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8). For the unrighteous, "It is appointed for man to die once, then after that the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27) in Hades temporarily, in torment then judged and go into the "lake of fire," the final hell, eternal punishment for the unrepentant who rejected Christ as the "only" way to salvation.
Choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19). Now is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2).
Jesus warned not to be afraid of those who can kill you since they can't harm you anymore, but rather, fear the one who can kill you and has the power to cast you into hell (Luke 12:4-5). "Be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" (Matthew 10:28). He also had plenty to say about people outside of heaven who will be cast into outer darkness where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12, 13:41-42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30 and Luke 13:27-28).
Torment will be:
• Physical: The rich man said to Abraham, "For I am tormented in this flame, send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue" (Luke 16:24). The unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire, tormented day and night forever (Revelations 14:11, 19:20, 20:10). "In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
• Mental: "He is comforted, you are tormented" (Luke 16:25).
• Spiritual: "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-9).
• Just: At different degrees. God's punishment will be less for some (Matthew 11:20-24) and double for others (Revelation 18:5,6).
Know this -- hell is eternal separation from God, for he is holy. The attribute most used in the Bible, even more than loving, merciful or kind, is that he is holy. Sin cannot enter heaven and be in the presence of a holy God.
Christ was the only perfect sinless one (1 Peter 1:19, 2:22) who suffered and died for all of us, for all time (Hebrews 10:10,12,14). "God made him to be sin for us for that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). "The blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). "God sent his son to be the propitiation/substitute for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2, 4:10).
Pushing the concept of purgatory gives a person false hope that he can die in his sin because he will be prayed into heaven, totally negating the fact that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22).
By the way, when you read this in context, the scripture that talks about our works being tested by fire isn't about purgatory but rather about the rewards that the righteous believers will be receiving, not the unrighteous. Just as there are varying degrees of punishment in hell for the latter, there will be varying degrees of rewards in heaven for the righteous as well (1 Corinthians 3:13-16). God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6).
Pope John Paul II said the essential characteristics of heaven, hell and purgatory is that they are "states of being" rather than places. Very misleading, dangerous false teaching. Only God is infallible, not man.

end of article



SO i would like whoever feels like responding to respond to the first article. What would you say to this guy/girl? You could respond as if you were talking to the author of the first article. I would greatly appreciate the responses... What do you think..

Also note: that the newspaper has a requirement for all letters written to the opinion section that states: all claims or facts must be substantiated.

I begin at the end of the argument, which is to define what is accepted as 'evidence' to support an argument for or against God and God's judgments. The purpose of the atheist's words is to denigrate God and the worship of God, not to offer any proof that the Almighty doesn't exist. Bigotry is supported by bigotry, and that is sufficient in the atheist mind to prove everything. Logically it proves nothing, because the atheist uses one standard of evidence for himself and another for religion. In summary, it is not the sufficiency of evidence that is the issue with the atheist, it is the suppression of evidence that is the true motivation.

The atheist claims there is no God. Fine. Prove it.

In order to truly claim there is no God, one would have to have knowledge that spans the entire universe(s). One would have to be able to peer beneath every rock, within and across every planet, meteor and star and to examine every galaxy in the sky and beyond it. It's rather like stating there's no such thing as a purple jewel with yellow spots anywhere in the universe. To be true, one would have to possess omniscient knowledge. No man has such knowledge and that's why the Bible says "the fool has said in his heart there is no God." But the atheist is a fool who basically likes to hear himself talk and will not listen to reason regardless of how much hard evidence is presented.

The best an atheist can do is change his philosophical position to agnostic - the recognition that there MAY be a god but that He is unknowable and/or unprovable. It should be noted here that atheists who truly examine truthful statements and philosophy have recognized for years that the atheist position is untenable. Such men have become agnostics instead. But the hard core young fool who wishes to justify his sin MUST deny God in order to continue in his wickedness.

The article continues with rubbish stirred up from nearly every corner of the self-important person who wrote it. I won't waste time responding to the bulk of it except one.

God DOES answer prayers. Again the fool says in his heart that God does not answer prayers. In order for such a remark to be true, the one who states it would have to have unlimited knowledge of every thought and every life that issued a prayer to God. Since such a thing is impossible, the writer has proven himself to be a fool once again. A bigot with nothing to say except his own vomitous hatred of religion, of those who've dedicated themselves to it and of the God who deserves our worship if not our respect and admiration.

I have nothing but contempt for the fool who denies God and His works.
God has reserved the eternal fires of hell for them and in the end the joke will be on them.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...