Help with John 12:32

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Scott Downey

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Nope, as we've testified that the Jews or all Israel, are exempted due to the partial blindness is happened to them.

Meaning, partially blinding them the Gospel message and GOD had concluded them all in unbelief (Romans 11:32), due to the salvation of the Gentiles.

On the other hand, is not about partial Jews being saved and partially not.

Romans 11:
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


According to Apostle Paul, besides all Israel there is indeed a remnant saved by the election of grace.

(All Israel or all Jews will be saved in the end, is referring solely to the descendants of Jacob and his 12 sons, and not anyone who claim to be a Jew)

When Jesus said that the Holy Ghost will reprove the world of sin, is referring to the Gentiles.

Therefore, the Gentiles or self claim Jews when they're not, who do not believe in the Gospel and Jesus Christ paid in full for their sins, will die with their sins unforgiven.

Again, is not about partial Jews believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the partial rest did not.

But rather partial blindness to the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and He's the Messiah.

All Israel or all true Jews will be saved in the end not because of the Gospel, but because of election, beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

Romans 11:
27. For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes (Gentiles): but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling (Romans 9:4&5) of GOD are without repentance.


Towards the reign of anti-Christ, there will be 2 witnesses sent to Israel to minister to them, until they're killed.

In the end when all Israel is saved and in Heaven, then they will come to knowledge Jesus was their Messiah and the Son of GOD.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ who is Lord
In contrast to what you wrote is this, not all Israel of the Jews are saved, only a small remnant are saved.
Only a small seed is preserved, the vast number of the Jews, God was not pleased with them, when they die they go to hell.

And true Israel is not made of Jews only, it is also made of gentiles, as in all He has called.

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
 

Scott Downey

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As Paul says not all Israel is of Israel.
Jesus called the unbelieving Jews sons of the devil.
They were definitely not of Israel, read John 8.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Paul is saying the true Israel is made of both called Jews and called Gentiles, and no one else is saved as only the elect obtain the salvation.
And there is a remnant of them chosen by God's grace.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”


22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 

Fred J

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In contrast to what you wrote is this, not all Israel of the Jews are saved, only a small remnant are saved.
According to Romans chapter 9-11, only a remnant under the election of grace, meaning the Gospel is apparently grace and truth.

The partial blindness and jealousy on the rest of the Jews was caused by GOD HIMSELF.

So that the Gospel will be taken to the Gentiles from then on.

For the meantime mercy have been shown to the Gentiles until the full number be come in.

Therefore in the end, the same mercy will be shown to all unsaved Israel, where GOD HIMSELF will take away their sins. (Romans 11:27&31)
Only a small seed is preserved, the vast number of the Jews, God was not pleased with them, when they die they go to hell.
Nope, all seed came from Jacob and his 12 sons are preserved, even though a remnant saved under the election of grace.!

The mystery to all unsaved and enemies to the Gospel Israel's salvation was only revealed later through Apostle Paul.
And true Israel is not made of Jews only, it is also made of gentiles, as in all He has called.
You're totally off!

True Israelites are made of Jews only, who are from the linage of Jacob and his 12 sons, those who came out of Egypt and after. (The ones came out of Egypt were slightly more than a million, imagine the growth to the time of Christ in Israel and after, even scattered ones, and till today worldwide?)

Only under the election of grace that is the Gospel, the saved remnant of Jews and Gentiles have become the 'one body of Christ'.

Shalom in the name of Christ Jesus the Lord
 
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Scott Downey

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According to Romans chapter 9-11, only a remnant under the election of grace, meaning the Gospel is apparently grace and truth.

The partial blindness and jealousy on the rest of the Jews was caused by GOD HIMSELF.

So that the Gospel will be taken to the Gentiles from then on.

For the meantime mercy have been shown to the Gentiles until the full number be come in.

Therefore in the end, the same mercy will be shown to all unsaved Israel, where GOD HIMSELF will take away their sins. (Romans 11:27&31)

Nope, all seed came from Jacob and his 12 sons are preserved, even though a remnant saved under the election of grace.!

The mystery to all unsaved and enemies to the Gospel Israel's salvation was only revealed later through Apostle Paul.

You're totally off!

True Israelites are made of Jews only, who are from the linage of Jacob and his 12 sons, those who came out of Egypt and after. (The ones came out of Egypt were slightly more than a million, imagine the growth to the time of Christ in Israel and after, even scattered ones, and till today worldwide?)

Only under the election of grace that is the Gospel, the saved remnant of Jews and Gentiles have become the 'one body of Christ'.

Shalom in the name of Christ Jesus the Lord
There is only one people of God.
A holy nation. His own special people.
1 Peter 2

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
 

Pavel Mosko

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Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.
Hi Carl!

A long time ago I tackled the basic topic under the title "Universal Reconciliation". I did not deal explicitly with that verse in hand, but gave my general reasons why I thought the position was untenable.


I am starting a posting series of why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation (That everybody will get saved eventually). For most Christians this is a no-brainer, yet there exists a certain faction of alternative theology people that live on the internet and in real life that just don't want to believe that Hell etc. might be eternal.....

1) The use of dross and chaff in the Bible. IF UR is correct don't you think God would have communicated that to us? We think of recycling as a modern environmental thing but it's not, the ancients were even more into recycling than we are since production of materials in pre-industrial times was much more difficult. In Ancient times, rather than throwing out something of potential value it was more common to refurbish it, or at the very least try to recycle the material for another use. The question is if God intends to this for everybody in the afterlife then why does God use terms like dross and chaff to describe the wicked in the Bible (things that were purely waste products and never recycled). Why wouldn't God use another metaphor like they are instruments or materials that are dull, or dirty, maybe a little rusty or moldy (But still salvageable)?


I guess I need to rework that Blog series since I can only find a few posts here and there.


2) My second post was built on the first in that if Jesus or the entire Trinity intended to communicate this doctrine why did they do such a bad job in doing it?! And I gave ways that various existing parables could have been tweaked to communicate that kind of message. Out of the various ones I think the Parable of the Foolish Virgins is the best candidate. If I was Jesus, I would make those foolish virgins locked out of the Feast for just the first day, but afterwards they get to buy the oil and their sorrow eventually turns to joy? Why didn't Jesus think of that if he was intending this? I mean outside of the fact He is God Incarnate, in his humanity as a Bible teacher he pretty much can run circles around everyone so why did he fail at something that is a low-end challenge?


3) Satan and the Demons are probably the next obvious thing as far as feasibility of the concept? Do people believe they will be saved eventually? Why? or why not? Going back to ancient times this was one of the big objections to Origenism the fact that folks believed this thought everybody would eventually be saved Satan included. But that begs the question if so then what is stopping Satan and the Demons from repenting right now? From my perspective Satan is completely unrepentant, and the angels have a different status to us based on how God created them. We are basically God's children, while angels are his loyal servants.


4) The whole concept is problematic from the standpoint of the theology of the Bible. Back in the New Testament days the Resurrection of the Dead and life after death was the big issue people wrestled with before Christ came along. The New Testament goes out of its way to emphasize those topics meaning something like Eternal Damnation is obviously on the menu when the precursors of the Resurrection of the Dead and us being given glorified eternal bodies is established.


5) I also take issue with the thought that Universal Reconciliation is merciful. It isn't from the standpoint of God giving us freewill etc. This can easily be seen as a form of coercion, where God eventually gets his way no matter what people choose or want, rather than giving us all multiple opportunities to repent but eventually honoring the choice of the stubborn. I also have to raise the issue of "Eternal Security"? If people can get out of Hell eventually, would not the opposite also happen? I don't believe that based on certain passage, but for folks that want to believe this belief based on "reason" well there are some other drawbacks that I don't think they have considered.

On the mercy side I will also float the Eastern Orthodox "River of Fire" view. This is that Heaven and Hell are states of being for the same place aka the presence of God. Folks thar are in Communion with God find it pure joy, but folks not in Communion are like a bunch of autistics at some touchy feely gathering that drives them up a wall. I think this is possible, but there are a lot things to consider and we won't know until the final curtain.
 
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doctrox

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From The OP:
ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.
Context, context, context! An understanding of verse 32 is to be found in the following verse 33. Here is the passage:

v. 32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

v. 33 - This he said, signifying what death he should die. [That is, the death of the cross (even as they had tried to stone him oft times).]

IOW, the key is in understanding how this was accomplished. He was first nailed to a cross, then lifted up from the earth onto a cross, lifted up between heaven and hell.

Christ does the drawing, and it is to Christ that we are drawn. Christ's death, with outstretched arms, was a "lifting up," inviting and embracing all that would come.

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.
No doubt, "universalism" would seize an opportunity to isolate a single scripture.

"Draw" is not synonymous with "salvation." To those who would come, the cross, the uplifting, must come before salvation.
.
 

Scott Downey

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There is another way to look at "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Every knee will bow to Christ.
Jesus received all power and authority from God after His resurrection, He is back at the right hand of God the Father.

The Great Commission​

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

And all mankind will be drawn to Him for judgment, because He was obedient to the Father's will.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 5
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.