Wormwood said:
My point is that the courts rule in favor of a women being allowed to terminate the life of the unborn. It doesn't matter to me if every court in all the world said that killing the unborn is right, it would still be wrong.
But we weren't debating right vs. wrong. I specifically cited the court rulings to demonstrate that from a legal standpoint, the arguments you've been offering have been summarily rejected. If you don't want to discuss the legal issues surrounding gays and Christian businesses, then let's drop that aspect of the discussion.
Pointing to a court ruling doesn't prove anything.
In the context I presented it, it sure does. It proves that your arguments have no legal merit.
So are you suggesting we can only be Christians in private?
No, that's ridiculous. I was specifically talking about the legal distinction between a private church and a public business.
Does a photographer have to accommodate a nude model in their request to take photos or do they have the freedom to refuse? I still don't see why this is different.
Does the photographer advertise that he will take nude photos? Is he refusing to take nude photos of only a certain group of people? If not, then the photographer can simply say that nude photos are not a service they provide to
anyone. Thus, they are not discriminating against any group of people.
Contrast that with the Christian baker, who sells wedding cakes, just not for gay weddings. Understand?
You refuse to see this as the baker not wanting to be a part of a gay wedding that he felt was immoral and was actually against the law in his state (regardless of where the wedding would be held). You keep claiming that he was discriminating because of who they were, but he wasn't. He was willing to bake for them, but he was unwilling to create a cake for this event (not because of who they were, but because of what they were doing). There is a difference in saying, "I will not serve you because of who you are" and "I will not participate in what you are doing."
We've been over this. As the court unanimously decided...
The salient feature distinguishing same-sex weddings from heterosexual ones is the sexual orientation of its participants. Only same-sex couples engage in same-sex weddings. Therefore, it makes little sense to argue that refusal to provide a cake to a same-sex couple for use at their wedding is not “because of” their sexual orientation
IOW, they're saying in legal-ese "that's a pretty stupid argument".
I don't expect judges or courts to see this (so it doesn't surprise me when courts rule against Christian convictions), but I do expect Christians to see this.
Since when is discriminating against gays a "Christian conviction". Just from this board alone you should realize that's not the case.
Why are you so intent in defending the "laws" rather than the convictions of a Christian (regardless of whether or not those convictions are held in a church or in a business).
First, because as I said above, discriminating against gays is not a Christian conviction. Second, because we don't live in a Christian theocracy (and I wouldn't want to live in one either). We live in a deliberate secular democratic republic, where all citizens are supposed to be treated equally under the law. And that includes being able to walk into a public business and not be discriminated against because of who you are. Third, you still haven't explained how if we allow Christian bakers to refuse service to gays due to religious beliefs, a Christian banker wouldn't also be allowed to refuse to give home loans to gays.
If we say to Christian bakers "You're allowed to discriminate against gays", we'd also have to allow the same to every religious group and every business. Is that really what you want? Or maybe you really do want to live in a Christian theocracy where only Christians get special privileges?
I just cannot understand why a Christians convictions should only apply to their private church life and not their work life.
They can, up until they negatively impact the rights of others. And that's what's going on here. Gay couples, just like all other citizens, have the right to walk into a public business and be able to purchase a product just like everyone else. When that right is infringed, they go to the legal system to get relief.